Roger Hicks
Mentor
Or fail to raise funding, or go broke.
One tends to hear only about the successes.
One tends to hear mostly from the fantasists.
If it' such a self-evidently brilliant idea, why don't you actually DO something? Instead of floating an SLR idea on a rangefinder forum? EDT: I see you're going to. Good luck! That is NOT said ironocally..
At photokina I'll have a word with someone who could, if they wanted, do it. I'll be interested to hear their reasons why they don't/won't. Or better still, why they might.
Cheers,
R.
3rdtrick
Well-known
Nikon shooters have been wanting this so long they even have named it: FM3d. To save weight and battery life it could even have a manual cocking shutter. If Nikon had made this I definitely would have bought it and probably would not have bought the M9.
Pete
Pete
I would be interested in that person's opinion as well. You could show him my post verbatim.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
As a matter of fact, Cosina did just about that, and did grow into a serious player over it: They designed and built affordable manual focus film bodies for many major makers (among them Nikon, Olympus, Yashica and Konica), all sharing many core components of their K mount OEM body series to keep costs down.
I have a stock of 3 Kodak SLR/n's and a Kodak 14n. The closest thing to an FM3d I can find. As good as anything shot from my M9.
At ISO 160 they still beat almost any other digital files from any camera in the last decade. No AA filter, 14mp, Kodachrome-like color right out of the camera if you use a good RAW converter. You can use almost any Nikkor lens. Firmware 5.4.9
At ISO 160 they still beat almost any other digital files from any camera in the last decade. No AA filter, 14mp, Kodachrome-like color right out of the camera if you use a good RAW converter. You can use almost any Nikkor lens. Firmware 5.4.9
zuiko85
Mentor
Back from the walk.
A ray sunshine you say?
Well I'm 63 and can dream up what I'd like with the best of them, been dreaming up cameras for years. But I've never seen even one that was close to my musing's built. So I've settled with what is available. To tell the truth not one digital camera today excites me. I still get a warm and familiar feeling handling my old OM and Pen F cameras but my modest DSLR is just an appliance, a black plastic blob engendering no different feeling than my toaster or coffee maker. Personally I would love a to have the option of a digital back to clip to my OM-1. Actually I want a choice of two backs, one with a bayer array for color and a luminance only back for B&W (see, I told you I can dream). I do however think digital backs for classic 35mm film SLR's would be cheaper to develop than new full system cameras.
A ray sunshine you say?
Well I'm 63 and can dream up what I'd like with the best of them, been dreaming up cameras for years. But I've never seen even one that was close to my musing's built. So I've settled with what is available. To tell the truth not one digital camera today excites me. I still get a warm and familiar feeling handling my old OM and Pen F cameras but my modest DSLR is just an appliance, a black plastic blob engendering no different feeling than my toaster or coffee maker. Personally I would love a to have the option of a digital back to clip to my OM-1. Actually I want a choice of two backs, one with a bayer array for color and a luminance only back for B&W (see, I told you I can dream). I do however think digital backs for classic 35mm film SLR's would be cheaper to develop than new full system cameras.
Archlich
Well-known
They have capacities to produce digital cameras in China, yes, because the threshold has became so low that anyone could do it, like the way they make $50 Nokia copies.
But "high grade" digital cameras - what's "high grade", a full frame sensor? I'd like to see where's that came from. During the past decade the only mentioning of a Chinese DSLR in the cyberspace is a wide spread image of Aigo camera, which turned out to be a cheaply photoshopped Pentax full frame prototype of 2001. None showed up since then, and obviously none is in the making. Otherwise, why $999 full frame cameras haven't been flooding the market yet?
In their last "golden age" of the camera making (late 80s) they had to buy whole production lines from Japan to produce licensed copies of some Konica and Ricoh cameras - can't make any themselves until years were spent reverse engineering the circuits, because anything electronic used to be a bar too high. Nowadays it's a general consensus even among the Chinese photographic community that things go good only as far as adapter rings, soft release copies, half cases and maybe cheap optics. But putting full-frame sensor into a compact body?
Even if the idea is perfectly executable, I'd say you're better off throwing the millions of investment - at least that amount for a good start - into the faces of someone Japanese or even Kaufman himself than the Chinese and their "capable" technology reserve.
But "high grade" digital cameras - what's "high grade", a full frame sensor? I'd like to see where's that came from. During the past decade the only mentioning of a Chinese DSLR in the cyberspace is a wide spread image of Aigo camera, which turned out to be a cheaply photoshopped Pentax full frame prototype of 2001. None showed up since then, and obviously none is in the making. Otherwise, why $999 full frame cameras haven't been flooding the market yet?
In their last "golden age" of the camera making (late 80s) they had to buy whole production lines from Japan to produce licensed copies of some Konica and Ricoh cameras - can't make any themselves until years were spent reverse engineering the circuits, because anything electronic used to be a bar too high. Nowadays it's a general consensus even among the Chinese photographic community that things go good only as far as adapter rings, soft release copies, half cases and maybe cheap optics. But putting full-frame sensor into a compact body?
Even if the idea is perfectly executable, I'd say you're better off throwing the millions of investment - at least that amount for a good start - into the faces of someone Japanese or even Kaufman himself than the Chinese and their "capable" technology reserve.
healyzh
Well-known
Count me in that crowd, one of my favorite lenses on my M9 is a Leica 50mm Summar f/2, it turns 80 in a year or two. On the M9 my growing 50mm collection is 50mm. Of course my new favorite is a Leica 50mm Summicron f/2 (Type 4). Another favorite is the Nikkor-S.c 5cm f/1.4 that is over 60 years old. I love that these old lenses are on a full frame digital rangefinder body. I look for lenses that will have interesting character that you can't find in modern lenses.
Of course it also helps that I love having a camera that functionally is very close to a Nikon FM2 (though more like a FE2). That is the level of automation I want. It doesn't make the mistake of thinking it knows better than I do what I want. Another advantage is that it's small, if anything smaller overall than my beloved FM2.
I've said for several years I would buy a full frame Digital Nikon FM2/FE2 in a heartbeat. I doubt I'll ever see such a camera, but other than the fact the M9 is a Rangefinder it basically is that camera. The fact that my eyesight seems to work even better with a Rangefinder than it does with a split screen is just an added bonus!
Agreed, you are one of the people who completely "get it".
I think my camera idea would have extremely healthy sales.
I think my camera idea would have extremely healthy sales.
Count me in that crowd, one of my favorite lenses on my M9 is a Leica 50mm Summar f/2, it turns 80 in a year or two. On the M9 my growing 50mm collection is 50mm. Of course my new favorite is a Leica 50mm Summicron f/2 (Type 4). Another favorite is the Nikkor-S.c 5cm f/1.4 that is over 60 years old. I love that these old lenses are on a full frame digital rangefinder body. I look for lenses that will have interesting character that you can't find in modern lenses.
Of course it also helps that I love having a camera that functionally is very close to a Nikon FM2 (though more like a FE2). That is the level of automation I want. It doesn't make the mistake of thinking it knows better than I do what I want. Another advantage is that it's small, if anything smaller overall than my beloved FM2.
I've said for several years I would buy a full frame Digital Nikon FM2/FE2 in a heartbeat. I doubt I'll ever see such a camera, but other than the fact the M9 is a Rangefinder it basically is that camera. The fact that my eyesight seems to work even better with a Rangefinder than it does with a split screen is just an added bonus!
btgc
Mentor
For those waiting for affordable budget FF RF - this summer I bought a part from Chinese seller, purpose of which is to keep lens of Sigma DP1/2 in extended postion to prevent wearing out ribbon cable (weak spot in this models). Part itself is far from being a rocket science (look after EFM + Sigma) though it costs $40 - simply because no one has figured out this trick except one person. People, including me, shell out $40 (sometimes that's 1/2-1/3 fom cost of camera) just because there's no competition.
So be sure digital rangefinder from China wouldn't cost you a chips when they can ask your finger....or two.
So be sure digital rangefinder from China wouldn't cost you a chips when they can ask your finger....or two.
Spanik
Well-known
I'd want one. Certainly in M42 mount. But if possible not too much plastic. Like an 70-80's SLR would be perfect. Iso dial, speed dial, threaded release and good viewfinder. No photo display, just something that says how many shots on card and battery status. If you cant luxury: a self timer
Colin Corneau
Colin Corneau
Amazing, no one's thought of that before or attempted it. Only you 'get it'. I guess you know something no one else does, incredibly.
Maybe, or maybe not.
Ideas are a dime a dozen.
Someone has to be the first to act on an idea, apparently you like to throw cold water on any speculation.
Like Steve Jobs said, the public doesn't know what it wants until you put it in their hand.
Ideas are a dime a dozen.
Someone has to be the first to act on an idea, apparently you like to throw cold water on any speculation.
Like Steve Jobs said, the public doesn't know what it wants until you put it in their hand.
Kent
Finally at home...
A NEX is fantastic for that BTW.
Spanik
Well-known
Not the NEX-3 I have here. Worst camera I ever had. You cannot do anything without the menus, no way to hold it, looks good one the screen until you take a photo with it.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Nice idea ... in the meantime I'm happy to keep using my D700 knowing it's built like a tank by a company with a long history of camera manufacturing. I can also get by with the range of F mount lenses at my disposal.
Considering that the Chinese are now in the space race and plan to have their own space station by 2020 they should be able to manage this small task though!
Considering that the Chinese are now in the space race and plan to have their own space station by 2020 they should be able to manage this small task though!
To pull this off they need a sensor. They'd have to buy from Sony, most likely.
But if you have old glass and want a Sony sensor, just adapt your lenses to one of the SLTs...
But if you have old glass and want a Sony sensor, just adapt your lenses to one of the SLTs...
scottsa
Member
Study why many Auto manufacturers were (some still are) willing to release sub-standard build-quality and poor design and you'll answer many modern questions.
Many things are doable. Some have touched upon vision and will, others upon practicality and feasibility.
In the end, it all has to do with sustainability and the bottom line which are both part of the profitability equation.
But as with Steve Jobs, "not invented here" seems to be a big factor too. Right Fuji, Canon, Nikon...?
Many things are doable. Some have touched upon vision and will, others upon practicality and feasibility.
In the end, it all has to do with sustainability and the bottom line which are both part of the profitability equation.
But as with Steve Jobs, "not invented here" seems to be a big factor too. Right Fuji, Canon, Nikon...?
bgb
Well-known
I think it would be nice if Cosina updated the Epson R-D1, I'm sure it could be done but will it or should it is a matter for those who will spend the money.
If they did would anyone buy it?
Why start from scratch when most of the work has been done?
If they did would anyone buy it?
Why start from scratch when most of the work has been done?
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
In my limited experience with Chinese manufacturers (as "I Love Film" — also in the mktg/adv + product design field)... I don't think they're tremendously interested in pioneering a concept like this. They'd be happy to build it if someone paid them to. Secondly, would a China-branded product have a significant chance in the marketplace? They'd need a branding and marketing effort to give the product non-gimmick validation, and that would require a campaign also run by an outsider.
Looking at these new lenses being released that fit the m4/3 and NEX, by 'off-brand' companies... in my mind, they seem like usable or even quality optics. But, a consumer commitment to a sensor-based piece of technology seems to be more intense than a purchase of a lens. These lenses may perform at levels that match 'major brand' products, but are they ever going to be embraced by enough of the general public to make their manufacturers into the kinds of companies that garner respect and brand loyalty? They seem almost like fly-by-night enterprises. People don't buy multi-thousand dollar cameras from companies like that.
Cosina would have to do it. And, they'd have to do it soon. Before Canon or Nikon are forced into those markets. At some point, as auto-everything, AF digital completely obliterates the film market, and the consumers lose all interest in manually focusing those 'vintage' lenses, it won't matter if there is a glut of Canon FD glass available on Ebay. The folks who care about that stuff are getting older. And, we're getting more used to mod cons. As the current tech gets better and better, there will be fewer and fewer compromises associated with, say AF. If the Fuji XPro 2 has killer AF, won't the need/desire for this 'digital FE' be diminished? That market segment will still be buying the Fuji, and the Canon Mx, and the Nikon Md, and such... and those dollars come out of the digital FE fund. And, then, the only thing the FE-D has going for it is nostalgia.
Looking at these new lenses being released that fit the m4/3 and NEX, by 'off-brand' companies... in my mind, they seem like usable or even quality optics. But, a consumer commitment to a sensor-based piece of technology seems to be more intense than a purchase of a lens. These lenses may perform at levels that match 'major brand' products, but are they ever going to be embraced by enough of the general public to make their manufacturers into the kinds of companies that garner respect and brand loyalty? They seem almost like fly-by-night enterprises. People don't buy multi-thousand dollar cameras from companies like that.
Cosina would have to do it. And, they'd have to do it soon. Before Canon or Nikon are forced into those markets. At some point, as auto-everything, AF digital completely obliterates the film market, and the consumers lose all interest in manually focusing those 'vintage' lenses, it won't matter if there is a glut of Canon FD glass available on Ebay. The folks who care about that stuff are getting older. And, we're getting more used to mod cons. As the current tech gets better and better, there will be fewer and fewer compromises associated with, say AF. If the Fuji XPro 2 has killer AF, won't the need/desire for this 'digital FE' be diminished? That market segment will still be buying the Fuji, and the Canon Mx, and the Nikon Md, and such... and those dollars come out of the digital FE fund. And, then, the only thing the FE-D has going for it is nostalgia.