I mean outside of what happened with the M8 and M9, which Leica digital has been bad? They are all pretty nice, but I guess these questions are asked just make sure the OP is not missing anything small that is undesirable. Like he said, he has used a lot of cameras and pretty much knows this is the right move. The M10 seems like the first real digital M in so many ways. Any iteration of it is just more beautiful or useful. I would love to have one and think it might be my next purchase too. I am very happy with my Fuji APSC and medium format and Ricoh pocket cameras but I miss an M. Like David, my film Bessa R2 is not cutting it for me either. Having a digital M again would really complete my dream set-up.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
... Which is all well and good as things to consider when considering buying a new camera, but doesn't in any way address the question posed.
The situation I saw in the first two responses is analogous to someone subscribed to the Mercedes enthusiast list asking that community, "Hey, I'm planning to buy a new CL230 four door. I've been driving a Toyota Camry, but I'm going to sell it and buy the Mercedes. Have you folks who own one been happy with it?"
and then being told:
"If you're buying new, why not wait for the CL320? Of course, if you're buying used ... then it is nice."
and then:
"What's wrong with your Camry?"
I find these kinds of responses to a simple question somewhat puzzling, that's all. They don't address the question, although they might be perfectly nice topics of conversation in another context.
When someone posts a question and I decide to respond to it, I try to address the question. I may also, after addressing the question, bring up other things to consider which I've learned from my experience with the subject at hand. But first and foremost, I attempt to address the question. Maybe that's just the mathematician in me, wanting to pursue a dialectic in a logical, reasoned way.
For me, the M8 and M9 were Leica's 'first tries' at creating a digital M ... which just two years prior had been considered to be nigh on impossible. The M typ 240 was the first proper digital M for me as it overcame nearly all of the problems of the M8 and M9. The M10 refined the notion with two more generations of development work, restoring the feel of the film M's slimmer body. So the question, "I mean outside of what happened with the M8 and M9, which Leica digital has been bad?" seems right on point.
G
boojum
Mentor
My point was and is that it is not the camera holding me back from great pictures. I suspect that I am not alone.
35photo
Well-known
Why do you care? Not answering the question..
boojum
Mentor
I suppose it was a philosophical question addressing need and desire and want. From my perspective, and this is just mine, it is not my camera which is standing between me and great photos. In my case it is my skills and talents. And whatever camera I use, the little Lumix DMC-ZS3, the Pentax Q-S1, the Sony A7M III or one of the four Leicas with their lenses, the problem is still the same: me. I have not yet found the camera to elevate me from the mundane to the divine and, honestly, have abandoned the quest. I am trying to learn how to take pictures that are better regardless of mechanical device attendant. Hopefully with diligence I can draw abreast of the rest of the pack. That is my desire. And it is why I ask, "what is wrong with the camera you have?" It makes less of a difference to the lesser lights like myself.
Yokosuka_Mike
Abstract Clarity
This thread really lends itself to participation. Despite the fact that one really needs to have owned or at least used an M10-P to qualify as a responder, we have a truly gifted bunch of helpful members jumping in to help the OP steer his way through the difficult decision of… of… well, I guess there is no decision he needs help with. David is going to buy an M10-P.
However, with a lack of qualified responders responding, we shouldn't let a perfectly good thread go to waste. So, one-by-one we all jump in and share our thoughts, opinions, experiences and our well intentioned and often misunderstood questions. I love it! This is (in my opinion) what a forum is all about. One member initiates a discussion and where it goes from there is wherever it goes from there; just like a real conversation amongst friends.
This is so much fun! At least I'm having fun!
All the best,
Mike
However, with a lack of qualified responders responding, we shouldn't let a perfectly good thread go to waste. So, one-by-one we all jump in and share our thoughts, opinions, experiences and our well intentioned and often misunderstood questions. I love it! This is (in my opinion) what a forum is all about. One member initiates a discussion and where it goes from there is wherever it goes from there; just like a real conversation amongst friends.
This is so much fun! At least I'm having fun!
All the best,
Mike
Dralowid
Michael
Years ago I got a big bonus at work. (note that I did not use the word 'earned').
I had always had a Leica and wanted a new M. I knew it wouldn't turn me into Cartier Bresson in any way but that is what I had decided I wanted to do. So I bought a brand new M6TTL, it was great and I enjoyed it for many years. Nothing broke, I wasn't disappointed and it was a success for me.
I didn't ask anyone their opinion of the camera beforehand and thankfully I wasn't online at the time. Would they have put me off? Probably, but they didn't get the chance. If I had been put off the purchase I think I would have regretted it.
So to the OP I say, if that is what you want to do, do it if you can really afford it. The only probable difference between you and I was that I recently sold my camera for a healthy profit but...was that in my mind at the time of purchase? Certainly not.
I had always had a Leica and wanted a new M. I knew it wouldn't turn me into Cartier Bresson in any way but that is what I had decided I wanted to do. So I bought a brand new M6TTL, it was great and I enjoyed it for many years. Nothing broke, I wasn't disappointed and it was a success for me.
I didn't ask anyone their opinion of the camera beforehand and thankfully I wasn't online at the time. Would they have put me off? Probably, but they didn't get the chance. If I had been put off the purchase I think I would have regretted it.
So to the OP I say, if that is what you want to do, do it if you can really afford it. The only probable difference between you and I was that I recently sold my camera for a healthy profit but...was that in my mind at the time of purchase? Certainly not.
coogee
Well-known
Yawn at the car analogies, So boring. No one cares?
I had an M10-P, it is really very nice, as good as it gets for any rangefinder aficionado.
Having said that, I traded for an M10-R as the 40MP does make a difference to me.
If money is an issue and it makes a difference, I don’t think the ‘P’ is worth a big premium over the standard M10 - the sensor is the same, the shutter and touchscreen are superfluous in practical use imp.
If there was a cheaper 40MP M10 version without a touchscreen then I would have bought that.
Enjoy your new camera, whichever way you go.
I had an M10-P, it is really very nice, as good as it gets for any rangefinder aficionado.
Having said that, I traded for an M10-R as the 40MP does make a difference to me.
If money is an issue and it makes a difference, I don’t think the ‘P’ is worth a big premium over the standard M10 - the sensor is the same, the shutter and touchscreen are superfluous in practical use imp.
If there was a cheaper 40MP M10 version without a touchscreen then I would have bought that.
Enjoy your new camera, whichever way you go.
It should be noted that the OP answered this question.
35photo
Well-known
Listen I completely agree with you! But there is an X factor.... Does the tool inspire creativity?? Yes the tool does matter as its part of the creative process and if that part of the creative process doesn't inspire... doesn't matter... Could be a Holga or a Leica M10-P price doesn't matter.... I've almost shot them all from Holga to Hasselblad H4D....I enjoyed using em all but always came coming back to the Leica... It works for me it gets out of the way and just let's me do what I do...I do have other tools in the the tool box its the Leica I grab 90% of the time... Now back to the OPs question which isn't a philosophical at all... So if you have something to share about you actually using an M10-P that's what he his asking for.... I offered my 2 cents in an earlier post.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
This answer makes a lot of sense to me! I agree with Bill that 24MP has got to be enough. Not too long ago, 6MP was enough; then 10MP was enough, and then 18MP was enough. And now 24MP is enough! I say, that's enough. As for IBIS, would we really want that much complexity in a Leica? Might it be better for the Leica to remain the way it started: simple and reliable. No, I don't have an M10; but in David's situation, I would buy the M10-P.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Not sure about dynamic range, which is more sales pitch from youtube gear reviewers (not real photogs) than anything else to me.
I'm finding M10 series colors as nothing special and Nikon/Sony FF colors been often on the wrong side of the color shifts. R series camera OP has is way better camera as color camera from what I have seen.
35photo
Well-known
Totally 24mpx is the sweet spot if you ask me....I thought about it the M10R... I really wanted the black chrome which the R isn't... silly I know... and wanted the clean look of the P... My the M9 is black paint prefer Black Chrome.. Shoot 18mpx of my M9 is fine it was fine 10 yrs ago its still fine now....I have a GFX 50R if I really needed to make huge prints.... I love my M10-P glad I got it...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I agree 100% with your notions, but it still doesn't address the question asked.
I have five or six digital cameras and at least a dozen film cameras. When I bought the sixth digital camera or the twelfth film camera, did there have to be something wrong with the previous 4 or 11 for me to justify buying the latest one? Of course not ... I bought them because a- I was interested in what they offered and liked the idea/the camera, b- they did something that I wanted more easily than I felt the other cameras I already had did, and/or c- they included a improvement in function that I felt had some advantage for what I wanted to use them for, even if they operated in exactly the same way. Or they did something new that I hadn't thought of before and wanted to try out.
Do I ever buy a camera because I believe that it is the panacea that will escalate me to photographic fame and glory?
No, I'm not that foolish. And I don't think anyone else on this forum is either.
G
35photo
Well-known
You know there is are RAW processing tools Lightroom or Capture One etc out there…?? Well there are ways if you know what you’re doing to control color to you’re heart’s content… Maybe you should spend sometime learning how to use it… Instead of sitting here bashing different cameras color output…
There is no need for the hostility. Certain cameras certainly have a certain color science. Canon and Fuji are known for this and Sony is not. Of course you can post process... but still certain companies are known for their color science.
luuca
Well-known
I bought a M-10R some weeks ago.
coming from M9 (talking about digital...) the step forward is huge.
nothing that will make me shot better photos... but some very pleasant things:
-very quiet
-thinner body (the feeling is the same of my mp)
-iso dial (I don't like buttons and menues)
-rear lcd quality
-battery life
-far better sensor latitude especially on burned areas
-iso sensibility (although I don't go more than 1600)
what I got but I don't need or I don't like?
-40mpx, but ok, dng are not so huge as I feared
-touch screen (imho absolutely useless)
-liveview and his button beside the bayonet (useless without a tilt screen)
-frame lines not enlightened by a window but with a led (so if the camera is switched off you will not see frames, very annoying)
hope it will help
coming from M9 (talking about digital...) the step forward is huge.
nothing that will make me shot better photos... but some very pleasant things:
-very quiet
-thinner body (the feeling is the same of my mp)
-iso dial (I don't like buttons and menues)
-rear lcd quality
-battery life
-far better sensor latitude especially on burned areas
-iso sensibility (although I don't go more than 1600)
what I got but I don't need or I don't like?
-40mpx, but ok, dng are not so huge as I feared
-touch screen (imho absolutely useless)
-liveview and his button beside the bayonet (useless without a tilt screen)
-frame lines not enlightened by a window but with a led (so if the camera is switched off you will not see frames, very annoying)
hope it will help
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Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Yet, Sonikon colours are just massively odd on the Net.
lukitas
second hand noob
I got my brand new second hand M10-P three weeks ago. In silver. I am ecstatically happy with it.
People have told me there are 'more better' cameras to be had for less money. But the M-cameras are the only ones in the market that allow me to be the photographer, and not the machine. I want less automation, I want the mistakes to be mine, not the cameras'. Autofocus is the machines' choice, tweaking it takes extra effort. Trying to focus with an evf hurts my eyes.
That, to me, makes it worth paying much too much, and I'm glad I did.
People have told me there are 'more better' cameras to be had for less money. But the M-cameras are the only ones in the market that allow me to be the photographer, and not the machine. I want less automation, I want the mistakes to be mine, not the cameras'. Autofocus is the machines' choice, tweaking it takes extra effort. Trying to focus with an evf hurts my eyes.
That, to me, makes it worth paying much too much, and I'm glad I did.
Not really. I tell my autofocus where to focus.
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