piero2020
Established
Hello nice people,
I finally saw the light
and ditched all my SLR material, so now I would like to get into rangefinders.
I practically only do portraits on b/w film, so I am happy with a 50 mm and an 85 or 90 mm lens (I thought of getting both from Zeiss or Voigtlander).
My requirements are:
- Leica Mount (I will buy myself Leica lenses when I'm rich)
- Light Meter (I really don't know how the use the sunny rule etc)
- Should be repairable and serviceable (I read somewhere that you should get some kind of realignment done once a year on rangefinders)
I found 3 cameras that could suit me:
- Minolta CLE
- Bessa R3A
- Zeiss Ikon
I was going to get the Zeiss (I read somewhere that is has a "superior viewfinder"), but then I saw that Zeiss does not repair it anymore.
What camera should I get? Keep in mind that my experience with rangefinders is zero, so I might have get my assumptions wrong.
Many thanks.
I finally saw the light
and ditched all my SLR material, so now I would like to get into rangefinders.I practically only do portraits on b/w film, so I am happy with a 50 mm and an 85 or 90 mm lens (I thought of getting both from Zeiss or Voigtlander).
My requirements are:
- Leica Mount (I will buy myself Leica lenses when I'm rich)
- Light Meter (I really don't know how the use the sunny rule etc)
- Should be repairable and serviceable (I read somewhere that you should get some kind of realignment done once a year on rangefinders)
I found 3 cameras that could suit me:
- Minolta CLE
- Bessa R3A
- Zeiss Ikon
I was going to get the Zeiss (I read somewhere that is has a "superior viewfinder"), but then I saw that Zeiss does not repair it anymore.
What camera should I get? Keep in mind that my experience with rangefinders is zero, so I might have get my assumptions wrong.
Many thanks.
agentlossing
Well-known
The Zeiss Ikon (assuming you're referring to the one with the M-mount) is made by Cosina, just like the Bessa. So those will be somewhat similar in terms of robustness, I can say that my Bessa T is quite well put together, and the R3 is even better. These have newer components than the Minolta.
On at least two of these (R3a and CLE) you will want to consider that if the electronics go bad, you won't be able to use the camera anymore. Some Bessas run equally well with and without electronics. Also I'm pretty sure NONE of these cameras will be serviced first-party anymore. But you should definitely not need to get your RF aligned unless you handle the camera pretty roughly, or it comes that way.
On at least two of these (R3a and CLE) you will want to consider that if the electronics go bad, you won't be able to use the camera anymore. Some Bessas run equally well with and without electronics. Also I'm pretty sure NONE of these cameras will be serviced first-party anymore. But you should definitely not need to get your RF aligned unless you handle the camera pretty roughly, or it comes that way.
piero2020
Established
santino
FSU gear head
Not really. There are a lot of Bessas with meters that are purely mechanical and work without batteries. Cosina made shutters are all around and so it should be easier to find a chesp donor for parts.
The CLE would be my choice but as mentioned before, the electronics can fail and nobody will repair it.
The CLE would be my choice but as mentioned before, the electronics can fail and nobody will repair it.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
If you're on a budget and you must have a Leica M-mount rangefinder camera, then the Leica CL (not the CLE) - or "Leitz Minolta" CL - is your best option. The CL has the roughly the same RF base-length as the Bessa R series cameras and they're still serviceable (Don Goldberg - "DAG").
And they're fully functional without a battery, which operates the meter only.
And they're fully functional without a battery, which operates the meter only.
piero2020
Established
Thanks, would you have some models in mind?
piero2020
Established
Sweet, thanks!
santino
FSU gear head
Bessa R3M. Probably the same shutter is installed in the Bessa L, Bessa T, Olympus OM 2000, Yashica FX 3 2000 Super etc.
hap
Well-known
I don't know about the Ikon. I have a bessa R and metering is straightforward.
However, I have the CLE and there is no metering in manual. Only in Auto aperture. But if you have some time you can get the exposure in "A" and then easily transfer to manual.
mteresko
Established
I have a Zeiss Ikon that was serviced by Zeiss last October. If they've stopped working on them, it's a recent development. I really like mine, and the viewfinder is great.
Bingley
Mentor
I’d recommend considering the Bessa R2A over the Bessa R3A. I’ve had both and still have the R2A, which is a really nice camera, kind of a poor man’s M7.
If you wear glasses, as I do, you may find the 40mm framelines on the R3A hard to see. Also, some R3As had a problem with the rangefinder going out of adjustment easily (the one I had was one of these).
My R2A, in contrast, has been trouble free. It also has a dedicated frameline for 75mm lenses, which I’ve found v handy. True, it’s not built like a tank, but it’s build quality is solid enough. I’ve taken mine on overseas trips and it performed like a champ. The metering is pretty accurate, and having the ability to select aperture priority shooting is v nice.
The Minolta CLE is a legendary camera, but I understand is hard, if not impossible, to repair if its electronics fail. I’ll leave it to others to address the Zeiss Ikon; I’ve owned or shot with one.
If you wear glasses, as I do, you may find the 40mm framelines on the R3A hard to see. Also, some R3As had a problem with the rangefinder going out of adjustment easily (the one I had was one of these).
My R2A, in contrast, has been trouble free. It also has a dedicated frameline for 75mm lenses, which I’ve found v handy. True, it’s not built like a tank, but it’s build quality is solid enough. I’ve taken mine on overseas trips and it performed like a champ. The metering is pretty accurate, and having the ability to select aperture priority shooting is v nice.
The Minolta CLE is a legendary camera, but I understand is hard, if not impossible, to repair if its electronics fail. I’ll leave it to others to address the Zeiss Ikon; I’ve owned or shot with one.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Odd twist of the choice.
RF, 85 and 90mm lenses are next to absurd with RF. Tiny frame-lines and parallax.
Plus, none of those three in the list as serviceable as simple and common SLRs.
Bessa is on the mercy of very few. CL is the same and Ikon nobody knows for sure, just some rumors from those who didn't serviced it recently.
You have to grow with RF even more and realize what 35 and 50 are better portrait lenses than your cliche. In fact, anything from 50 and wider is portrait lens on RF.
RF, 85 and 90mm lenses are next to absurd with RF. Tiny frame-lines and parallax.
Plus, none of those three in the list as serviceable as simple and common SLRs.
Bessa is on the mercy of very few. CL is the same and Ikon nobody knows for sure, just some rumors from those who didn't serviced it recently.
You have to grow with RF even more and realize what 35 and 50 are better portrait lenses than your cliche. In fact, anything from 50 and wider is portrait lens on RF.
shawn
Mentor
Hello nice people,
I finally saw the light
I practically only do portraits on b/w film, so I am happy with a 50 mm and an 85 or 90 mm lens (I thought of getting both from Zeiss or Voigtlander).
My requirements are:
- Leica Mount (I will buy myself Leica lenses when I'm rich)
- Light Meter (I really don't know how the use the sunny rule etc)
- Should be repairable and serviceable (I read somewhere that you should get some kind of realignment done once a year on rangefinders)
I found 3 cameras that could suit me:
- Minolta CLE
- Bessa R3A
- Zeiss Ikon
I was going to get the Zeiss (I read somewhere that is has a "superior viewfinder"), but then I saw that Zeiss does not repair it anymore.
What camera should I get? Keep in mind that my experience with rangefinders is zero, so I might have get my assumptions wrong.
Many thanks.
If you are looking for 50mm and 90mm the R3A would be a great choice. The thing to understand about different rangefinders is the magnification of the viewfinder. The R3A has a 1:1 life size (1x) rangefinder and is built for 40mm and above.
The CLE is a great camera but its viewfinder magnification is lower at .58x. Which means it has a wider view in the viewfinder so that its 90mm framelines will be smaller than on the R3A.
The Zeiss Ikon has a .72x viewfinder which is around standard on most Leica cameras. It has the advantage of a longer effective base length which has to do with the accuracy of the rangefinder itself.
Shawn
hap
Well-known
All cams based on the Cosina CT-1 chassis. some innards transferred to the Zeiss.
Seiko vertical travel shutters.
GLL
Member
I've owned both R2 and R3 Bessas and an Ikon, and I would strongly recommend the Ikon.
It's an absolutely beautiful camera - the body is nice, the viewfinder is the best i've used (better than a Leica M6) and the longer rangefinder base length makes focusing fast lenses much easier than on the Bessas. Concerns about repairability are mostly a forum fetish and not hugely helpful in my experience -- you'll be able to find someone to do a CLA on any one of those bodies.
As for lenses, I think people are right to suggest that lenses longer than 50 are less useful on a rangefinder, although there are others who disagree. 50mm lenses shot at MFD of 0.7m are perfect for most portraiture, and if you're really set on trying a longer lens the excellence zeiss 85mm is very cheap and matches the ZM Ikon perfectly.
G
It's an absolutely beautiful camera - the body is nice, the viewfinder is the best i've used (better than a Leica M6) and the longer rangefinder base length makes focusing fast lenses much easier than on the Bessas. Concerns about repairability are mostly a forum fetish and not hugely helpful in my experience -- you'll be able to find someone to do a CLA on any one of those bodies.
As for lenses, I think people are right to suggest that lenses longer than 50 are less useful on a rangefinder, although there are others who disagree. 50mm lenses shot at MFD of 0.7m are perfect for most portraiture, and if you're really set on trying a longer lens the excellence zeiss 85mm is very cheap and matches the ZM Ikon perfectly.
G
zenza
Well-known
I own a few Bessas, the R3A in particular as well as a CLE. Unless you never plan to shoot wider than 40mm, the Bessa R3x cameras are quite limiting. The CLE is a nicer camera to use and gives you 28mm framelines and the ability to shoot 24mmish with the whole viewfinder.
As far as which Bessas are mechanical and only need batteries for the meter...you want the M models. A models require batteries to fire the shutter but you gain the ability to use aperture priority as well. FWIW I haven't had any issues with my Bessa cameras (both M and A variants).
IMO you really can't go wrong with any of the 3 cameras. You can also still get CLE and Bessas for good deals. Just a few days ago I got an R4M for $700 and a few months back got my CLE for $325...both off eBay.
As far as which Bessas are mechanical and only need batteries for the meter...you want the M models. A models require batteries to fire the shutter but you gain the ability to use aperture priority as well. FWIW I haven't had any issues with my Bessa cameras (both M and A variants).
IMO you really can't go wrong with any of the 3 cameras. You can also still get CLE and Bessas for good deals. Just a few days ago I got an R4M for $700 and a few months back got my CLE for $325...both off eBay.
The Zeiss Ikon is the nicest of the list... but all will do just fine. As far as failing electronics, only the Minolta is old enough to worry. Is it still the cheapest? If so, then you might take your chances...
aizan
Mentor
I'd recommend the R3a or R3m because it has a 1:1 magnification viewfinder, which you'll appreciate with the 85/90mm.
But I'd reconsider using a rangefinder altogether. Focus and recompose will be a headache at wider apertures and closeup.
But I'd reconsider using a rangefinder altogether. Focus and recompose will be a headache at wider apertures and closeup.
agentlossing
Well-known
Basically if you want aperture priority Bessas, you lose function if the electronics fail or the batteries are dead. The M versions of Bessa cameras require you to set things manually, but have very good meters that make it easy to keep tabs on exposure.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about any Bessa failing, unless it's been mishandled or stored poorly. If you get a good sample, you can be pretty sure they will function with their circa early 2000's parts for quite a long time with no trouble. The Ikon will be the same, being the same manufacturer. I believe they all have the same shutters, which are pretty loud compared to other RF cameras, but fairly quiet compared to SLRs.
The CL/CLE have the oldest electronics, so they are a bit more of a risk. The CL as mentioned functions without the electronics, however. CLE does not.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about any Bessa failing, unless it's been mishandled or stored poorly. If you get a good sample, you can be pretty sure they will function with their circa early 2000's parts for quite a long time with no trouble. The Ikon will be the same, being the same manufacturer. I believe they all have the same shutters, which are pretty loud compared to other RF cameras, but fairly quiet compared to SLRs.
The CL/CLE have the oldest electronics, so they are a bit more of a risk. The CL as mentioned functions without the electronics, however. CLE does not.
Nitroplait
Well-known
I seriously doubt that the SLR shutters can be repurposed for use in the rangefinders. The Bessa Copal shutter has dual blinds specially made for rangefinder use.
--
Regarding use of 90mm on a rangefinder. 90mm is really an afterthought, not a very pleasant experience and close to impossible to nail focus consistently when moving in close on a moving subject.