biggambi
Vivere!
O.K. I will admit there is a serious flaw in the M9. It is one that I am hesitant to bring to light. It is of the most serious matter, and it is an egregious error on Leica's part. But, I feel compelled from a moral stand point to speak to the matter to which I am referring. Leica has yet to order Roger to forward his test M9 to me. Even though I am more than willing to post many comments and pictures here at this fine haven for all who love Leica and rangefinder cameras, the RFF.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
The only determinant to what the "community" wants is sales, plain and simple. That's the bottom line.
Interestingly, the professional "community", those who through their business expense tax write-offs can afford virtually any camera on the market, doesn't seem to be running to the M9 in high volume (at least, not yet) because its technology and features doesn't seem to suit their needs. And the "community" of enthusiast amateurs have, by and large, been priced out of the market.
Here's the hard, cold truth: Leica are not making cameras that professionals want or that enthusiasts can afford. They will thus have to make dramatic changes to their business model, away from catering to narrow niche markets who desire digitized legacy form factors, or simply disappear.
Car makers can't compete with the manufacturing efficiencies of modern automobile design by hand-assembling like Rolles once did. Look at what's happened to the luxury European car brands, they've been forced into the 21st century or they've disappeared entirely. So this is happening on a global scale in a wider swath of industry than just photographic equipment.
Leica needs a professional camera line, one that pro's will actual want to own and use, and fits their current expectations. I'd prefer not to call it a DSLR, but whatever it is, it needs to perform at world-class levels. This involves sensor designs that outperform the best the Japanese can currently make. I don't know who's going make these for Leica, other than Kodak.
And Leica needs an enthusiast amateur line that a wider base of customers can afford to own. With a new line of lenses, using software correction to eliminate a final pair of optical elements, yielding legendary Leica quality at affordable prices. They need to take some of the clues from the u4/3 format, but not necessarily join the consortium, because Panasonic would out-perform them. The X1 is a good first step, but they need to change the viewfinder system and offer interchangeable lenses.
P.S.: Leica may already be too late, with Samsung's APS-C interchangeable lens offering; although I don't expect the Samsung camera to have nearly the same quality that Leica customers expect, so there's probably more room in the APS-C interchangeable lens market for Leica to emerge.
And many have defended Leica's high prices by slamming the US economy, saying that it's the decline in the dollar that's brought about the extraordinary high prices. There's truth in that. However, Leica needs to decide of the US is a market that they're interested in retaining. If so, they need to get off their collective posteriors and produce an enthusiast amateur camera aimed at that market.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Vilk
Established
M10? You mean there was something after M3?
Hmmm... I'm still waiting for M3-2, an M3 with pointy frame corners... Maybe this year, at last... I do believe in progress, even if it takes time.
Hmmm... I'm still waiting for M3-2, an M3 with pointy frame corners... Maybe this year, at last... I do believe in progress, even if it takes time.
monochromejrnl
Well-known
However, current owners don't have 85 years of experience making cameras, the Kaufmans (current controlling shareholders) have only been on the board and responsible for captaining the Leica Camera ship, for less than 7 years.
They are very wealthy private equity interests running Leica Camera AG now and since they are a private company, we don't really know if they are actually making a profit.
biggambi
Vivere!
JoeV: As far at the Leica community goes, they are buying the M9. Leica is back ordered on it. Your entire post cant be summed up as: Those who are not buying the Leica digital M cameras, and are not happy with the current offering. I believe Leica will fail as a company because they are not offering what we want. How do you presume to know if Leica will or will not continue to exist as a company producing cameras as they now offer? Are you on the board of Leica, or at the helm?
edit: I think one has to be careful when making such assumptions, as they are rarely based on knowing the facts. Also, only Leica knows what they have on the drawing board. It is easy for everyone to second guess and create dream systems. It is another thing to actually create, manufacture, and successfully market new systems. They have been successful for a long time, and they have a very loyal following that adds new members each year. Are they worried about their market, beats me.
edit: I think one has to be careful when making such assumptions, as they are rarely based on knowing the facts. Also, only Leica knows what they have on the drawing board. It is easy for everyone to second guess and create dream systems. It is another thing to actually create, manufacture, and successfully market new systems. They have been successful for a long time, and they have a very loyal following that adds new members each year. Are they worried about their market, beats me.
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Pickett Wilson
Mentor
Leica M9 is backordered because they have so little production capacity. It says nothing about how many cameras they have actually sold.
menos
Mentor
I would not smash up the 3 LL articles, issued so far.
Despite, the first two went quite openly into new design and functional areas, I do not necessarily agree with (especially the proposition of changing the form factor of the Leica M more into the shape of a camcorder or digital medium format camera - this surely left me speechless).
What I really like about Thom Hogans approach are two things:
He strongly argues against any loss of simplicity, due to attachment external EVFs.
He opens the discussion about a variant with a monochrome sensor with improved image quality, compared to it's color variant.
Especially the last one really is of interest to me. I shot B&W film with my M film bodies and convert raw files from my EPSON R-D1 into B&W.
Color is reserved to my Nikon DSLRs.
I truly would be positive about smaller than 18MB files for as a high resolution, as the M9 offers, for even more acuity and sharpness due to the lack of interpolation, even higher native ISO speeds than ISO2500 for less pushing in PP.
To me, this could well be sold as a M9m, even for the same price.
If it would technically mean, the same RAW Kodak sensor could be used with a different filter, different micro lenses and another logic board and image processing, then a bigger part of the technical design of the M9 could be used for this variant.
Of course all this would be as much as "another development project" parallel to all the irons, Leica has in the fire at present.
I would actually consider one of these over buying a M9.
One important thing though would be of importance to me, which has not been stressed by the articles.
I want to buy a camera of this pedigree and investment scale from Leica, that is marketed as weather proof and warrantied accordingly.
As I understand, the current M9 (and M8) is in successful duty under heavy conditions by many professional out door photographers, so they are to a certain level sufficiently rugged, as proven (reports, proving otherwise also come up here and there of course).
The difference between the status quo on this and a weatherproof sold camera by a world class manufacturer lays in the confidence and customer support, one has, using this camera.
Although Nikon does not warrant water damage and "only" markets the D3 as "weatherproofed", I have a very confident feeling in shooting it during heavy downpours, as many professional photographers do during their usual work.
Despite, the first two went quite openly into new design and functional areas, I do not necessarily agree with (especially the proposition of changing the form factor of the Leica M more into the shape of a camcorder or digital medium format camera - this surely left me speechless).
What I really like about Thom Hogans approach are two things:
He strongly argues against any loss of simplicity, due to attachment external EVFs.
He opens the discussion about a variant with a monochrome sensor with improved image quality, compared to it's color variant.
Especially the last one really is of interest to me. I shot B&W film with my M film bodies and convert raw files from my EPSON R-D1 into B&W.
Color is reserved to my Nikon DSLRs.
I truly would be positive about smaller than 18MB files for as a high resolution, as the M9 offers, for even more acuity and sharpness due to the lack of interpolation, even higher native ISO speeds than ISO2500 for less pushing in PP.
To me, this could well be sold as a M9m, even for the same price.
If it would technically mean, the same RAW Kodak sensor could be used with a different filter, different micro lenses and another logic board and image processing, then a bigger part of the technical design of the M9 could be used for this variant.
Of course all this would be as much as "another development project" parallel to all the irons, Leica has in the fire at present.
I would actually consider one of these over buying a M9.
One important thing though would be of importance to me, which has not been stressed by the articles.
I want to buy a camera of this pedigree and investment scale from Leica, that is marketed as weather proof and warrantied accordingly.
As I understand, the current M9 (and M8) is in successful duty under heavy conditions by many professional out door photographers, so they are to a certain level sufficiently rugged, as proven (reports, proving otherwise also come up here and there of course).
The difference between the status quo on this and a weatherproof sold camera by a world class manufacturer lays in the confidence and customer support, one has, using this camera.
Although Nikon does not warrant water damage and "only" markets the D3 as "weatherproofed", I have a very confident feeling in shooting it during heavy downpours, as many professional photographers do during their usual work.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Yes, but Dr. Kaufmann does have rather a lot of employees he can ask for advice AND he has access to the figures of what's selling, where.
Cheers,
R.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
And they are an Aktiengesellschaft, a public company, which is registered on the stock exchange. With a majority stockholder, that much is true.
parsec1
parsec1
Not difficult to know better than Leica Roger ?
The M8 and M8.2 were a bloody disgrace and (apologies to all those who were conned into buying them by an obsession with the little red dot).
The company is arrogant beyond belief and produce what they 'think' we the consumer must buy at prices bearing no resemblance to their worth as picture taking instruments.
I had a hybrid Kodak/Nikon digi in 1996------IR/UV filters for different times of the day or year, frame banding and incomprehenceable colour shifts .......what a joke !
As one very well known multi award winning (Now walking with a slight limp after being shot in Kosovo) PJ once said to me and many others(until they gave him a couple of M9s ( and admitedly about their film cameras )
"LOVE THE CAMERAS HATE THE COMPANY " and with good reason IMHO.
Had my first Leica an M2 and a 35 summi at 14 years old(Worked in a camera store during college breaks and they let me buy it on the 'drip') bless them, before going to Cambridge ( Astrophysics ) and then Princeton for same.
Have an original MP2 as well as much other Leica stuff incuding 2 M9s. If the camera division of the company goes 'down' they have nobody else to blame but themselves.
Looking at buying an appartment built into the cliff overlooking the harbour in Tangiers, recently. After Leica 'folds' and the way they are following their nations well proven traits that won't be long .
Selling the MP2 might provide some of the required funds and prevent the Mrs from beheading me.
Best Regards
Peter.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Huh??? Is it arrogant to have a concept - build a product - and sell it? I find it rather arrogant that customers think they are a design committee. I you want a different product: shop elsewhere or build your own. Yes - you can ask the the producer,of course, but demanding is quite ridiculous. If anything can be called a bloody disgrace it is this post.
I find it rather arrogant that customers think they are a design committee. I you want a different product: shop elsewhere or build your own. Yes - you can ask the the producer,of course, but demanding is quite ridiculous. If anything can be called a bloody disgrace it is this post.parsec1
parsec1
Huh??? Is it arrogant to have a concept - build a product - and sell it?
As Field Marshall Goring said to Adolf Galland during the final stages of 'The Battle of Britain' what can I give you to win this battle and gain 'air supeiriorty over southen England to prepare for a German invasion of our country (perhaps not yours ?) ' What can I get you to make you win this battle"... "A squadron of Spitfires replied Galland"
The rest is history !
Steve Ash
Established
sig
Well-known
Maybe the original owners of Leica sold out the camera division (or is it big enough to be called a division) due to the fact that they saw the future of it. Sell it while you can get money for it..... However I believe the only way for Leica to continue to live is to 'be strange'. The followers of the brand are in the 50ties to the 90ties, they have a lot of money to spend (and very dedicated). So why change anything and try to get younger customers (they can not afford it anyway). IMHO Leica does not need to change anything with the M for at least 10 years, then they need new customers (the old ones is dead)
Arjay
Time Traveller
Hm - and if they don't use this time to innovate and win a new group of customers now, then waiting out these ten years is simply like wasting the respite they may still have.
In the meantime, the good reputation they still have will be forgotten, as it is just the older users that have these memories.
As provocative as it may sound, Leitz will have to reinvent the Leica - and that certainly doesn't mean everything can stay as it was.
sig
Well-known
I agree. The only problem is that Leica knows their followers (and customer who can afford it) wants the good old Leica M. If it change they will not approve (and not spend money). So it is sort of a die or die situation.
On the other hand, if you can afford to buy Leica, the company, there is a big chance you know how to make money. I can not afford to buy a Leica, the camera....
On the other hand, if you can afford to buy Leica, the company, there is a big chance you know how to make money. I can not afford to buy a Leica, the camera....
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
There is a little known prelude to this story - at the invasion of the Netherlands the Dutch Air Force Fokkers shot down just enough Messerschmidts to enable the British Spitfires to hang on by their nails....
parsec1
parsec1
Couldn't agree more Steve. Canon, Nikon. perhaps even Pentax (although I have never used them ) as I have Nikon and Canon professionaly ,most certainly have .
Leica though I'm not so sure.
As for being 'awake' when you have had to face a couple of 'stoned out of their brains' 13 year olds pointing AK 47s at you sleep apart from the 'eternal one' is far from your mind.
Regards
Peter