Leica has made me a criminal! Help!

agentlossing said:
As a retail banker, I can say with confidence that $600 is not any threshold at all for reporting to anyone, or any sort of suspicious activity whatsoever. Also, a bank teller should never tell you if they feel the need to submit a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report) regarding the transaction. That's terrible business.

Now if your cash deposit were just shy of the federal reporting threshold of >$10,000, that could possibly be considered suspicious, in that the teller should ask the source of the cash and you should answer honestly. Because money launderers do abound and they do behave in a certain way. But this sounds like nonsense. A very poorly trained teller who made several really serious mistakes.

Incidentally, federal reporting for cash over $10,000 doesn't go anywhere, doesn't go to the IRS, and hmis simply kept on file in the event that sometime down the road, you come under investigation by the feds. Then, the bank has to hand that over if it's subpoenaed. SARs are reviewed by the bank's security and compliance people. Sadly, the act of you taking your cash and canceling the deposit is enough to justify a SAR, so that almost certainly got submitted. Of course, in this case it was a bungled interaction by a clueless teller, but that's poor management for you.
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I can only relate my experience. Which is exactly as I described it. I didn't think it would be an issue at all when I went into my local branch. The teller was not the only person who told me about the SAR, the $600 cash threshold, and related how other large deposits of my size (large for me) had resulted in closed accounts. Obviously, I'm not a criminal. I did explain how I came to get my cash (sold my camera collection). The neighboring teller supported the information I received, and some kind of management person who stopped by also supported the information I was being told.

I agree it would make sense to have a threshold of >$10,000, and that's what the tellers told me they used in the past. BTW, the amount of cash I wanted to deposit was still in excess of $5,000. I sold a couple of my Leica lenses that I just haven't come to love in order to find my way to an M10-R. I figured I was making a reasonable decision.

And as I said somewhere above, I have made large-ish cash deposits in years past without any weirdness. So if my bank, or these particular tellers are "wrong", what should I have done?
 
Mos6502 said:
I have a feeling you're not giving us the whole story. There are several things in your story that frankly don't make much sense. Unless perhaps you were coming to bank and making multiple $600 deposits in a day. People deposit thousands of dollars in cash at banks all the time (car payment, rent, construction, etc.) and this would not surprise any teller in the least. Unless the same person came back and did it again and again, or just "coincidentally" deposited or withdrew an amount that just happened to be under their limit for reporting or record keeping (and it's going to be a lot more than just $600!). Also anybody submitting such a report wouldn't (shouldn't) tell the person they're reporting.

As for skipping Oregon and coming to Texas - that won't change a thing! Not only will you deal with the exact same procedures, you might even have it worse in Texas. I once exhibited at an event in Dallas that required me to sign up for a sales tax license. After the event I mailed the state their share, and then tried to cancel the license with the state. They were very reluctant even though I'm not a dealer, or a shop owner, "don't you sell anything? Garage sales? Ebay? You need to report all of it!". They wanted me to report to them monthly!
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No, you're getting the whole story. $600 is the threshold I was told they use for cash deposits that triggers an SAR. My deposit was going to be larger than that. I sold about 500 cameras, and then lenses, and then Leica items. That resulted in several thousand dollars, enough to possibly cover a used M10-R. I wanted to make just one deposit. I also figured it wasn't such an odd thing to do, and as I said before, I've made large cash deposits at this exact branch in years past without noticing anything odd. That's not to say they didn't submit reports without my knowing...

And they weren't going to tell me about the SAR. I had to insist on knowing why they were asking me such strange probing questions. For example, they started by asking how long I've lived in my current home. Funny, because my mortgage is with them and they know precisely how long I've lived in my home! They wanted to know my annual income. My job title. Address of employer. How long there. My wife's annual income. Her employer. How many (if any) children I have. So on. Does that sound like a normal cash deposit inquiry?

So, for those RFF folks who are familiar with banking system. What's up with that? Shoudn't I have been concerned?

Do you know if Paypal has these strange rules, and how I would even go about putting cash in my Paypal?

I was as confused and frustrated as you can imagine. I just want to get a camera. My wife will kill me if I just buy one online without first depositing my camera sale money.
 
I once sold a set of speakers for $5k cash. In anticipation of doing that I'd opened an account just for that deposit. I didn't want the buyers to know my account number.
We went to the bank where I asked the teller to run the cash thru their counting machine, then to deposit it in my new account. No questions asked but I did tell them what our transaction was about.
I think the buyer flipped them for double his money but had to do it via an overseas transaction.
I'd find a new bank if I were you.
 
rfaspen said:
No, you're getting the whole story. $600 is the threshold I was told they use for cash deposits that triggers an SAR. My deposit was going to be larger than that. I sold about 500 cameras, and then lenses, and then Leica items. That resulted in several thousand dollars, enough to possibly cover a used M10-R. I wanted to make just one deposit. I also figured it wasn't such an odd thing to do, and as I said before, I've made large cash deposits at this exact branch in years past without noticing anything odd. That's not to say they didn't submit reports without my knowing...

And they weren't going to tell me about the SAR. I had to insist on knowing why they were asking me such strange probing questions. For example, they started by asking how long I've lived in my current home. Funny, because my mortgage is with them and they know precisely how long I've lived in my home! They wanted to know my annual income. My job title. Address of employer. How long there. My wife's annual income. Her employer. How many (if any) children I have. So on. Does that sound like a normal cash deposit inquiry?
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I wonder if that bank or branch has had issues with money laundering, and they are being extra careful. Those questions are very invasive.

Now that I think of it, traveling across state lines with a bunch of cash might not be a good idea either, as 'authorities' have been known to confiscate large amounts of cash moving across state borders, or even within the state, depending on where you live. State sponsored theft is a thing in many parts of America, sadly.

As for adding cash to Paypal, here is one description which you'll have to research before committing:

wise.com

How to add money to your PayPal account in 5 different ways

Here's a clear step-by-step explanation of how to add money to PayPal. We cover all methods and have a few tips you'll want to know about as well.
wise.com wise.com
 
The lowered SAR limit is a recent requirement, as it used to be $10,000 and normally was only reported to the IRS if at all. I have seen stories about folks getting all tied up with accounts being closed and funds withheld due to over aggressive policing of the reporting requirement by individual bank branches, so it seems to be a hit-or-miss proposition if one will get mixed up in this sort of issue. I'm not sure if dealing with a credit union would be any easier as they seem to make up their own rules all the time. One thing you could have done was create a ledger showing what each transaction entailed in order to ease the mind of the bank branch manager. But if they have trained the tellers to immediately start a SAR report even for a long-term customer as yourself then it probably wouldn't matter as corporate has decided they are going to cover themselves over the detriment of their account holders.

PF
 
rfaspen said:
No joke. My enjoyment of Leica cameras and lenses has made me a criminal -- and I had no idea!

How did I find out?

For starters. My wife and I have a policy that we each attempt to fund our own hobbies. She is a photographer and sells prints for her "fun money". I do woodworking commissions and buy/sell photo equipment to get fun money for my hobbies.

Summer of last year, I decided I really want a Leica M10, M10-R, or even an M11. My dream is a Leica M10-R. About the same time, I decided it was time to finally liquidate my camera collection (I did save favorites and sentimental items). So I began posting a little more than 500 cameras and lenses on craigslist to sell and make money for a Leica M10,M10-R,M11.

I wasn't prepared for what happened next. So many young enthusiastic people (I call them kids at my age) clamouring to come over and purchase my stuff. It was mostly common film cameras/lenses, but some high-end stuff too (Leica). I sold all my Argi C-3, Brownie Hawkeyes, Hi-Matics, and similar. And also sold Nikon kits F2, F3, D700, FE, FE2, FM, and more), Olympus OM, various M42, Rolleiflexes of all kinds, you get the idea. Also some Leica copies and a few Leica lenses.

After the hoards of kids came by my house and left with their very own box of cameras, I was left with empty space in my various closets, bookshelves, garage. Kind of a good feeling to know that all those young super-excited kids will actually use my cameras. I simply could not use them. They just sat and got sluggish -- very sad.

Also, after the hoards of kids, I found myself with a substantial stack of cash! You see....each one of those kids (some were older) gave me cash for their goodies and before long I had quite a stack. Let's say, I definitely have enough to buy that M10,M10-R or M11 at used prices. At new prices, maybe not the M11.

So, how did I become a criminal? It became clear I am a criminal when I went down to my bank (of 30+ years) to deposit my cash. I figured I would deposit my money, then I would then hop online and find myself my dream Leica (M10-R) and order it. But no!

I walked into the bank and told the teller I would like to make a cash deposit. She said, "OK. How much do you want to deposit, and which account?" I said, "I want to deposit [large amount] to my checking account". That's when she started acting strange. She proceeded to hem and haw, typed a lot on her computer, and then started asking a lot of very probing questions. Very probing, and very strange. I stopped her and asked what the heck is going on.

She informed me that she has to submit an SAR. An SAR is a Suspicious Activities Report. They are required to submit an SAR for any *cash* deposit greater than $600. I asked her just what this SAR will do. Well, apparently it goes to corporate headquarters and they make a decision whether to close your account. With the amount of cash I was intending to deposit, she said they would likely close my account. They would also freeze the cash deposit and make it unavailable until they finish "an investigation". This would apparently involve DEA, ATF, and IRS. And regardless, I would receive a form in the mail from the IRS to fill out and pay taxes on the cash deposit.

So it seems I have suddenly joined company with drug dealers, gun runners, and money launderers! It feels rather unexciting to become a criminal. I always thought it would be more like Thelma and Louise.

I told her to cancel my deposit (hopefully she didn't submit anything anyway) and I left with my stack of cash thinking I could still get my dream camera. I would just have to buy one the same way all those kids came to buy my cameras and lenses.

That was June 2023.

Since then, I have been searching for an M10, M10-R, or M11 offered for sale anywhere within driving distance of my home. Every day, I check. Every single day. I have not yet been able to find a camera for sale within driving distance. I live in western Oregon. Portland OR is 80 miles away, and about the limit I consider practical to go buy a camera. One M10 came up early in my search, in Portland. I didn't pursue it because it was chrome, and I wanted a black one. I figured I could pass and plenty of other cameras will come up before long. Well, now it looks like that was my only chance regardless of finish.

I'm so frustrated because I could order my dream camera from Roberts, Tamarkin, or so many private offerings on Fred Miranda and elsewhere, but I am unable to do so because I'm stuck with a giant stack of cash that doesn't fit through the electronic copper cables and those cameras are located far away from me.

So. Are there any other criminals out there?

I took a complete bath on most of the gear I sold. Only a couple Leica items sold for more than I paid for them. I'm clearly not a money lauderer, and obviously not a gun runner or drug dealer. But, here I am unable to buy a stupid camera because of banking laws and our society's move toward an completely electronic commercial space (apparently easier to track everyone?). Cash is not as nice as it used to be.

What do you guys do? What would you do? It's been several months and I'm beginning to think there will never be a Leica M10-R offered anywhere in Oregon again.
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Huh? This sounds ridiculous. I'd look for a different bank. I make cash deposits and withdrawals greater than $600 with fair frequency at CHASE and at my local credit union. No one has ever said anything but "Did you need anything else today?".

Any bank that told me they were going to submit a "suspicious activities report" because I wanted to deposit a thousand dollars cash would get one response from me: "Please withdraw all the money in my account and give it to me immediately... in cash ...then close my account. I thought this was a bank; I must have been mistaken."

G
 
Here's the Dept of the Treasury web page: Suspicious Activity Reports (SAR) | OCC
There's no mention of any limit other than $10,000, but it does say:
  • Report suspicious activity that might signal criminal activity (e.g., money laundering, tax evasion).
So that's up to the interpretation of the bank as to what might look like money laundering. Perhaps your bank has gotten burned one too many times so set a $600 limit?

The only other limit below $10,000 that I see is from the FDIC: FDIC: Connecting the Dots…The Importance of Timely and Effective Suspicious Activity Reports – Winter 2007 Vol. 4, Issue 2
"...or more regardless of potential suspects; and transactions aggregating $5,000 or more that involve potential money laundering or violations of the BSA."

If you were over $5,000, that would trigger the "maybe this is money laundering?" response where the bank has some leeway, where over $10,000 is "we don't have to wonder if it's money laundering or not, we report it no matter what."

So, yeah, find a bank that's less popular with money launderers.
 
I would honestly go and talk to the bank´s manager ... something seems off about this teller. I would tell the manager you were made to feel like a criminal and that all of the information online regarding suspicious transactions is nowhere near $600 for such invasive questions. You could go a step further and email the CEO of the entire company about this interaction. This is a time to be a "Karen" in my opinion.
 
The $600 threshold is pertinent when it comes to the IRS and reporting of income via form 1099-K, such as from online sales through ebay. That has nothing to do with banking and should have nothing to do with making routine bank deposits.
 
The details are now very fuzzy in my mind but I do recall reading an article about this type of thing in (I think) the NY Times at some point in the past. People who had cash businesses like tavern owners were being subjected to frozen accounts, etc., due to such bank rules. It's not a government policy but an individual bank policy. Or, the policy of giant mega bank corporations which removes the customer from contact with local banking. I don't recall too much about the article but it was infuriating that people were losing access to their money and credit due to some anonymous rules.
 
So you want a Leica? - Buy it in its home country of Germany, where cash is still welcome.
Only if you want banknotes with the number 1,000 printed on them, you have to go to our Swiss neighbors.;)
 
Unlike a regular bank owned and operated for the profit of the owners or shareholders, a credit union is a consumer cooperative, owned by the people who hold accounts at the bank. Board members are elected by the membership, so the whole thing is rather democratic. Most credit unions in the USA are additionally registered as nonprofit corporations with the IRS. You're able to do almost all of the same things you can at a private bank but the fees tend to be lower and there tends to be more community involvement.

I have only ever banked at credit unions and I cannot recommend it enough.
 
My faculty status made it possible to get a credit card [account] with our local credit union some years ago. It used to be limited to university employees, but I think now anyone can join. I only have the CC with them. "Regular" banking has been with my usual bank for many years.

Those of you who confirmed I experienced an odd situation -- thank you and I agree. I'm still leary of insisting to make a big cash deposit after hearing that they even *might* close my account(s) or freeze my deposit. I'm risk averse.

Ultimately, it's just a camera. I guess I'm just getting impatient because it has been 8 months since I accumulated enough funds to buy my toy and nothing has come up; with exception of the M10-P in chrome early on, that I passed up thinking plenty of other opportunities will come along. Before I made the decision to sell off the majority of my gear, I was seeing M10s and even M11s in the local used marketplace regularly. I seem to be cursed. What's more, I have other hobbies with their associated toys -- and those toys can be found locally and can be purchased with the cash raised from my big selloff. It has been an extreme exercise in will power to resist all those other toys and hold out for the M10/10R/11. 8 months and counting.
 
rfaspen said:
My faculty status made it possible to get a credit card [account] with our local credit union some years ago. It used to be limited to university employees, but I think now anyone can join. I only have the CC with them. "Regular" banking has been with my usual bank for many years.

Those of you who confirmed I experienced an odd situation -- thank you and I agree. I'm still leary of insisting to make a big cash deposit after hearing that they even *might* close my account(s) or freeze my deposit. I'm risk averse.

Ultimately, it's just a camera. I guess I'm just getting impatient because it has been 8 months since I accumulated enough funds to buy my toy and nothing has come up; with exception of the M10-P in chrome early on, that I passed up thinking plenty of other opportunities will come along. Before I made the decision to sell off the majority of my gear, I was seeing M10s and even M11s in the local used marketplace regularly. I seem to be cursed. What's more, I have other hobbies with their associated toys -- and those toys can be found locally and can be purchased with the cash raised from my big selloff. It has been an extreme exercise in will power to resist all those other toys and hold out for the M10/10R/11. 8 months and counting.
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Go to another bank and open a new account. Deposit your money there. Use your money however you want.

Then do what you like with the old bank/existing account. (I'd pull the money out and close it... I don't like businesses that treat me that way.)
--
I bought my M10-R body, used, from Tamarkin.com in February 2023. It cost me about $5300. A brief hunt for others for sale now shows the prices have risen a bit. Tamarkin currently isn't listing any for sale at present, but there are 9 or 10 M10-R bodies available on Ebay at present. Who knew that this model would be popular enough and desirable enough to warrant such price increases? Have to say that I like it a lot: it's a perfect complement to the M10 Monochrom.

G
 
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Godfrey: M10-R is in fact my primary desire. In fact, your related experiences with it here on RFF are a small part of my settling on the M10-R as top choice. That along with many other influences here on RFF and beyond.

I've bought from Tamarkin in the past a few times now. 98% great experiences. The one small issue over the years, I must take some of the blame. Won't keep me from readily and happily buying from Tamarkin now or in future...

I'm starting to wonder if I can use Paypal for an online purchase. From what was posted somewhere above, it looks like I can put cash in the Paypal, just not all at once. There appears to be an unfortunate time limit though... My latest wrinkle in the saga: I was really hoping to have my new toy (preferably M10-R) by the time my wife and I go on a photography-centric vacation during late April (next month!). Looking at the Paypal restrictions....I wouldn't be allowed to deposit enough money in time to (1) make the online purchase, and (2) receive the online purchase, considering shipping doesn't move at lighting speeds these days.

I just can't win.

Thanks all for your support and suggestions. If you happen to learn of an M10-R (or even perhaps M11?) in western Oregon, shoot me a message/email or whatever.
 
:) I'm glad you enjoy my ramblings with the M10-R ... It really is a wonderful camera.

I wouldn't store money on PayPal. I put money in a reliable bank or credit union, and draw from it when I make purchases with it via PayPal and other payment instruments. To me, that's the only sensible way to manage things.

So my previous note is the way I recommend you go ... go to another bank, open an account there after some discussion with the bank management on what their rules and regulations are, and move forward. Being stuck and stymied by a bank isn't something you should have to deal with.

Good luck!

G
 
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