Classic 120 folders with auto stop?

[Oren Grad]

I'm aware of the Perkeo II and the Super Ikonta B/III/IV. Which other classic 120 folders let you wind the film without fussing with the little red window?

TIA, any and all information much appreciated - it will be nice to have a reference on this in one place.

 

[thegman]

I believe the Iskra offers this. However, I have a Super Ikonta III, if you simply load a film into it, you'll get overlapping frames. I read a tip on APUG to apply a square of duck tape to the paper backing, and this will thicken up the film and give accurate spacing. It worked great for me.

I think also a Agfa Super Isolette may offer this, but check it out.

I also have a Bessa I, which is a red window affair, which can be kind of a pain, but you don't need to apply tape to the film... Now I've tried a red window style camera, I don't mind it really.

 

[KoNickon]

The Mamiya Six and the Certo-Six both have this feature. Truth be told, it can be more hassle than it's worth, especially if it needs to be fixed -- and you'll never have frame spacing problems with the red window!

 

[nosmok]

Balda Baldix and sister Hapo 66 wind without window after the 1st frame; the system is explained on Matt Denton's site IIRC. The Kodak Monitor 620 does too-- I have even used 220 film respooled in mine to good effect. The old Plaubel Makina II and III, whose roll backs can also be used on many ancient 6 x 9 plate cameras. And of course any press camera (Graphic, Mamiya, Busch, etc) but those, while classics and foldable, are probably not what you meant!

 

[kuzano]

Had some.. most broke or frame spaced wrong

Had some.. most broke or frame spaced wrong

Have had Three Mamiya, one Hapo66, One super Baldax, Two Perkeo II.

One Mamiya worked well, two broke
The Hapo was fine
The Super Baldax had frame spacing
Both Perkeo's failed.

Ruby window usage avoids frame spacing problems.

Could not find anyone who would work on the mechanisms for auto stop on any old folder. CERTO6 is outspoken on NOT Tackling these functions in old folders.

Frankly, could have been a killing blow to old folders in my book. That's when I gave up shooting old folders for the most part.

My only remaining old folder that shoots well, and has a great lens is a Perkeo that is a composite of two Perkeos... a one and a two, which retains none of the double prevention or autostop features. It's small and best of all, it's very reliable, unlike it's original configuration.

 

[sleepyhead]

I wouldn't let lack of this feature stop you from shooting with some of the great folders out there.

Also, my method with the red window is to wind the film on most of the way, and then do the final bit right before the shot, I.e. To keep the tension on the film and keep it as flat as possible. Unfolding the camera can creat a vacuum which bends the film

 

[umcelinho]

Iskra, works like a charm.

 

[Oren Grad]

Thanks, everyone!

I've used folders with the red window before, and learned the hard way about all the situations in which I can't see the numbers and the cameras become unworkable.

Cautions about reliability and frame spacing duly noted - thanks. I will try anyway - we'll see how it goes.

 

[Pioneer]

Agfa Super Isolette does not have a red window and the film transport seems to work pretty good as far as spacing is concerned

 

[newt_on_swings]

My Super Ikonta IV has the auto locking advance. Great camera that I still use routinely. It also has a slide open window on the back without the red, but its sole purpose is to check if film is loaded in the camera. Frame spacing is a bit tight, and a large piece of tape, or a taped on section of a cut 120 paper leader is enough to pad the roll.

 

[oftheherd]

One not traditionally thought of would be the Welta Perfekta or Superfekta. Both folding TLRs. Good luck on finding one. I would post a photo but it seems my gallery isn't showing my photos right now.

 

[graywolf]

First, almost all the automatic film counters will jam up with dirt and old lubrication, so will need a CLA to function correctly.

There are two types of counters that I know of.

The most common are the ones that count turns of the take up spool. These often have a problem with modern thin base films, but often work OK with thick based films like Fomapan.

The second type meters the film by picking the emulsion outside the frame with a star wheel. My Iskra has this type of counter and gives very even 1/8" spacing along the entire length of the roll.

Many of the Iskras were converted to red window. Probably not because of lack of parts as often attributed, but more likely to get 16 exposures, and save on the cost of film as the Soviet economy deteriorated. With the removed parts lost or misplaced it became difficult to convert them back.

In my little collection I have a Yashicamat TLR, the Iskra, a Hapo, and a Kodak Monitor mechanical film counters. The only one that meters the film precisely is the Iskra. All the others have rather uneven frame spacing.

One of the things you can try with your red window camera is different film brands, some have numbers that are easier to see than others.

 

[kuzano]

The Perkeo II

The Perkeo II

First, almost all the automatic film counters will jam up with dirt and old lubrication, so will need a CLA to function correctly.

There are two types of counters that I know of.

The most common are the ones that count turns of the take up spool. These often have a problem with modern thin base films, but often work OK with thick based films like Fomapan.

The second type meters the film by picking the emulsion outside the frame with a star wheel. My Iskra has this type of counter and gives very even 1/8" spacing along the entire length of the roll.

Many of the Iskras were converted to red window. Probably not because of lack of parts as often attributed, but more likely to get 16 exposures, and save on the cost of film as the Soviet economy deteriorated. With the removed parts lost or misplaced it became difficult to convert them back.

In my little collection I have a Yashicamat TLR, the Iskra, a Hapo, and a Kodak Monitor mechanical film counters. The only one that meters the film precisely is the Iskra. All the others have rather uneven frame spacing.

One of the things you can try with your red window camera is different film brands, some have numbers that are easier to see than others.

Based on these comments/thoughts, the Perkeo II and the rangefinder Perkeo "E" or III (naming on this cam seems inconsistent) should deliver results like the Iskra. The frame counter on the Perkeo II, or E uses a toothed larger spindle on one end of the film plane, that apparently moves the counter based on friction with the film. However, it should be noted that the roller is toothed and not actually a "star" wheel.

 

[Thomas78]

...

The frame counter on the Perkeo II, or E uses a toothed larger spindle on one end of the film plane, that apparently moves the counter based on friction with the film. However, it should be noted that the roller is toothed and not actually a "star" wheel.

My Perkeo IIIE does not have a frame counter, only a double exposure prevention. (I read that the space for the rangefinder was gained by skipping the auto stop)

 

[Godfrey]

My Balda Baldix and Voigtländer Perkeo II both have auto-stop wind mechanisms that work perfectly. Line up the first frame and the rest all line up correctly without a glance at the red window.

The Baldix went through a CLA recently and feels like its brand new. The Perkeo II is coming home next week from the same exercise. Much as I hear people talking about the "simplicity" of old mechanical cameras, they are devilishly complex to clean, lube and adjust when it comes to the mechanisms. Luckily, I have a tech nearby who is willing to take the time to do it, but it runs into a bit of change at $80 per hour. A camera like the Perkeo II is usually about 2-3 hours to thoroughly clean, lube and adjust.

G

 

[kuzano]

I did not know that?

I did not know that?

My Perkeo IIIE does not have a frame counter, only a double exposure prevention. (I read that the space for the rangefinder was gained by skipping the auto stop)

How interesting. Surprising that Voigtlander would opt for no count/stop mechanism in favor of the rangefinder. Hmmmm?

Thanks, that make the IIIE even more desirable in my book. I've repeatedly had problems with the camera's I've owned with automated film count/stop.

I guess I need to step up on price the next IIIE I see... They are very spendy as a rule.

 

[P C Headland]

Another one is the Super Fujica-6. Like the Mamiya Six, you line up frame 1 using the red window, then it's automatic from that point on. The Certo Six is slightly different in that it has a two-stroke lever rather than a knob.

Still, the Iskra is the easiest. Just put the film in and wind. Gently.

I've got one properly working 6x6 "folder" that is a bit odd though - you line the first frame using the 6x9 numbers, but from then on you use the film counter. The odd part is that it has no auto-stop. You line two index marks up on the counter and body.

 

[oftheherd]

Another one is the Super Fujica-6. Like the Mamiya Six, you line up frame 1 using the red window, then it's automatic from that point on. The Certo Six is slightly different in that it has a two-stroke lever rather than a knob.

Still, the Iskra is the easiest. Just put the film in and wind. Gently.

I've got one properly working 6x6 "folder" that is a bit odd though - you line the first frame using the 6x9 numbers, but from then on you use the film counter. The odd part is that it has no auto-stop. You line two index marks up on the counter and body.

I seem to remember reading that several old folder cameras do that. The window serves when the auto frame spacer isn't engaged or working, but it was originally meant to be a frame alignment mark.

 

[graywolf]

Based on these comments/thoughts, the Perkeo II and the rangefinder Perkeo "E" or III (naming on this cam seems inconsistent) should deliver results like the Iskra. The frame counter on the Perkeo II, or E uses a toothed larger spindle on one end of the film plane, that apparently moves the counter based on friction with the film. However, it should be noted that the roller is toothed and not actually a "star" wheel.

That sounds like the Rolleiflex Automats and clones.

 

[Joe Vitessa]

Super Fujica 6

Super Fujica 6

Another one is the Super Fujica-6. Like the Mamiya Six, you line up frame 1 using the red window, then it's automatic from that point on. The Certo Six is slightly different in that it has a two-stroke lever rather than a knob.

Still, the Iskra is the easiest. Just put the film in and wind. Gently.

I've got one properly working 6x6 "folder" that is a bit odd though - you line the first frame using the 6x9 numbers, but from then on you use the film counter. The odd part is that it has no auto-stop. You line two index marks up on the counter and body.

If you can find one, the Super Fujica 6 is a wonderful camera with a great lens--and it's rangefinder coupled!