The Empty Mind -- film vs. digital

BillP said:
...Go back to your project when you feel motivated to do so. The rest will follow.

Regards,

Bill
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Waiting for motivation spells certain doom for me. Motivation only arrives for me in the doing, especially with photography. I don't want you to think that shooting film has become a chore. Quite the contrary, it is a pleasure. And in that pleasure hides the danger of going through the motions of shooting pictures purely for the enjoyment of the process. And that is what my friend has cautioned.

Artspeak. I love that word. Fear of that kept me out of school for decades. I wish I would have found out sooner it was just a different language like all others. But let's save that for another day and another post...
 
Ask me, there's a few too many empty minds running around the landscape. Most of them seem to be in traffic with me at any given time.
 
Before I gave up engineering for Apple a decade ago, I asked myself a question: I spend much of my time using computers for the sake of computers: testing them, finding their limitations etc... When do I use them to create? I fell into a common pattern, which is to contemplate the tool rather than use the tool to create. I'm a gadget guy, and often am enamored with equipment. However, when I left that world I vowed not to use a tool for the sake of itself, but to focus on what it can do for me artistically. I don't "covet" my cameras as possessions, nor keep those things that don't provide artistic utility for me. This may be extreme, but it has helped me to focus on the output rather than the tool.

That said, I often find myself asking "When should I take my 5D and when should I take my MP?" The answer boils down to "what's the job at hand?". If I *need* to get the picture - to trust that I'm not going to miss the shot... If I need a quick process that results in the best images in the shortest amount of time, I carry the 5D. Sure, it's big with that 85mm 1.2 lens - but that's the right tool for me. If I want to experience the analog photo process for art reasons, or work quietly, or am going to a place without plugs for recharging, I grab the MP. No one camera can solve both issues for me (yet). The M8 is great, but it's just not yielding the results that my 5D does (please note: this is not a dig on the M8 at all! for me, maybe it's totally the tool for others!!)...

So, I feel your angst. Fight the urge to get caught up in using a camera for the sake of itself and grab whatever gets the job done for you. For a while, carry them both... You'll know based on what gives you the best images in the end.

I've noted that the Leica's are an amazing object unto themselves. They feel good - they're built so well - I enjoy using them due to this. But (again, this is just for me!) if compared purely in terms of the images they give, I grab the 5D for it's sheer reliability, full frame and low light brilliance and to "get the job done without worry".

Don't grab a camera based on how much you've spent on it or how it feels in your hand, or even how much space it takes up in your bag (within reason, of course). Grab it because you utterly enjoy the images it produces.

This is a totally subjective opinion - there's nothing wrong with using a tool for the sake of itself - and for many, Leica IS the best tool for the job.

These days, I just want to create great images and tell my story - I don't really care what tool gets it done as long as one of them does :)

The M8 is the first camera and lens combo that made me consider a break from my current tool. But I can't get the same images out of it that I can with the 5D/85 combo - and I can't replace it overnight if it breaks.

I hope this helps a little in your search - good luck in your creation!

-Dan
 
Steve Williams said:
... I don't want you to think that shooting film has become a chore. Quite the contrary, it is a pleasure. And in that pleasure hides the danger of going through the motions of shooting pictures purely for the enjoyment of the process. And that is what my friend has cautioned....
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I think, in the nicest possible way, you should ignore your friend. Doing something purely for enjoyment is enough. In fact, it's the height of good sense. It's the best use of your time.

Having looked at your project posts, I'd say it's working. Your work is good and you enjoy what you're doing. Good for you. I think we all should become more like you.
 
My recommendation would be to get a nice cheap fixed lens rangefinder (Konica auto s2, Olympus 35LC or SP or RD, Minolta 7s2) and take all that money and burn through some serious film. That's the only way, I think, that PJs felt free, they just burned thorugh film like it was there own sweat. I think there's a lot to be said about being free and some of these cameras offer comparable image quality and function to your leica, but freeing you up to buy lots of film and to also throw your camera at your friend and not worry about the expense when it breaks his face. I'm just kidding about that, I think your friend is on to something worth thinking about!


Actually those RFs above are not "cheap" in the fixed-lens universe. But they're not leica expensive either.
 
I found moving from a DSLR to an analogue RF made me a better shooter, gave me more freedom, and made me happier. I gave my Nikon to my Dad.
 
lns said:
Doing something purely for enjoyment is enough.
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I couldn't agree more. As appealing as it is to overcomplicate things, and look for elaborate frameworks, it all comes down to doing what you enjoy, nothing more, nothing less.
 
jayjee said:
Shooting film is like driving a manual transmission car in the days of automatic. It's mostly personal preference and it has zero effect on where you go.
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Exactly! So if the day ever comes where you can afford a Porsche 911SC or similar just get an automatic. There's not difference, you'll get to the same place...
 
Larky said:
I found moving from a DSLR to an analogue RF made me a better shooter, gave me more freedom, and made me happier. I gave my Nikon to my Dad.
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Me too. My hit ratio is much higher even though logically it should not make any sense. That plus I cannot get the lookl I want in digital for B&W. I need B&W emulsions for that and digital simply cannot replace it, for me anyway.
 
rich815 said:
Exactly! So if the day ever comes where you can afford a Porsche 911SC or similar just get an automatic. There's not difference, you'll get to the same place...
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Try sitting in Chicago traffic with the clutch shoved in, let out. Shoved in, let out. Etc. You'll cry for an automatic.
 
bmattock said:
Try sitting in Chicago traffic with the clutch shoved in, let out. Shoved in, let out. Etc. You'll cry for an automatic.
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Dear Bill,

This is not an argument against Porsche manual gearboxes; it is an argument against going to Chicago. Worse still, going to Chicago with the wrong car.

Cheers,

R.
 
Really interesting musings from the OP - and an interesting thread. Although not completely in line with the empty mind concept, it definetely points to one of the core problems of photographing, and that is to avoid visual clichés. If the "emptynes" works for you to get rid of visual preconceptions - fine. I tend to go another route (which you can see as a kind of"simmilar opposite").
I try to shoot two sheets of 4x5 film in my old Speed Graphic each day (one holder). Nice as a document of the daily routine, but, more important, a e reallly good lesson of judging the (personally) right from the wrong. The awkwardness of the 4x5, the slow composing (you can shoot handheld with the Speed), and the limitations of two sheets all help in bringing a certain aesthetic judgement upfront - which is helping me clearing the vision.
As a sideeffect I love to shoot grainy Tri-x in Rodinal again;)

-Michael
 
This is close to my view on this subject.

Different people have different motivations & working methods, e.g., Mozart v. Beethoven.

Not everybody has to achieve this so-called "Empty Mind" to be creative.

Chris101 said:
Sure. You will become complacent and bored with it. :rolleyes:

Your friend motivates himself the way he does it, and you have your own separate motivation. If shooting with your DSLR is producing the type of work you like, then keep it up. If you want to go back to your Leica, do that. I don't really see the conflict. It seems as if you are trying to become The Photographer that your friend envisions.

Then he'll be happy with your work.

But what will make you happy with it?
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KM-25 said:
For every time you look at the back of the digital camera, it points your head downward, away from the world, the moment and the life that you live and places you in the past, not the present that will give you the best opportunities for meaningful images.
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Love this paragraph !!! Why do poeple immediately feel the urge to check the picture they have just taken with their digital toy ? Keep focussing on your subject and take another shot. When you shoot film you also can't check it before development.

I got myself a Lumix LZ7 just for some documentation purpose where it's really incovinient to wait until the film is exposed and developed. And this little toy is just that, a toy, gadget that is full of features that had me cracking up [Baby 1 , Baby 2 scene modes with automatic age display once you did the programming of the birthdates: ROFL-MBO] For the purpose I bought it for it's a great value for money ($129 +S&H). But not for taking pictures to capture the decisive moment - that will be gone during the shutter lag anyway :D .

There clearly is a perceivable difference in the barrier before you press the shutter. This is of course much lower because you just fire away and may delete 95% later. With film you are more careful, more observant and you may ask yourself. Do I have to take this shot? - Maybe not. You make a selective decision before the shot not afterwards.

Maybe you are more "empty" with a digital camera but for me that would be unselectively sucking up everything infront of the lens/sensor/memory chip. I prefer being open but selective with film.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Bill,

This is not an argument against Porsche manual gearboxes; it is an argument against going to Chicago. Worse still, going to Chicago with the wrong car.

Cheers,

R.
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Ah, so if a person finds themselves in a situation that favors the use of a digital SLR over a rangefinder, the problem is not the camera - the problem is that they are taking photographs of the wrong things. I get it now, thanks.
 
dreilly said:
My recommendation would be to get a nice cheap fixed lens rangefinder
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There is value in this comment. At first I considered it to be rather flippant (sorry) but I realize that is isn't.

When I was about 15 I was given a cheap 35mm rangefinder, I think a Supra. The lady at the store where I bought it had to show me how to load film and how to figure out exposure etc. I knew nothing, absolutey nothing.

I really enjoyed that camera and I used it 'til I was 21. I think I took some of my best work, in many ways, back then because I had no expectations of myself or the camera. I didn't consider the limitations of my camera or my abilities, I just went blindly on and did what I did.

Later I got well caught up in the gear aquisition, what are the good lenses, the best films, bodies and all that. My photography really suffered.

What has stayed with me is the realization that to free my mind it is helpful to be totally comfortable with my tools whatever they may be. Because of this I've stayed with the film cameras I've owned for so long. I don't have to second guess technology I can just work with what I know.
 
First, I want to thank everyone for their insights and suggestions. Even though some of you suggested following my own intuition my personal experience has proven that insight is best tempered by a few external insights. Despite being a loner by temperment I have found great worth in the views of others. But in the end I have to figure out what to do.

A few things have jumped out in the discussion that are worth thinking about.

It's not about cameras, it's about what I see.

Keep working.

Keep things simple.

Have fun.

Tragically hip... that's funny!
 
Why the arbitrary 2 rolls a week and 3 prints. It IS arbitrary. Just shoot whenever there is a shot worth taking (you would be surprised how few shots you will take) and print only the great shots (not the good or very, very good ones). The empty mind comes from not, not thinking. Not from not thinking. Or, just shoot. However, Buddhist practice is one thing and photography another. You may actually want to think MORE and shoot less.

I am reminded of a commercial stock photographer who shot, according to him, over 2,000 rolls of film a year. Figuring it was just 24 exp per roll, that's , mmm, lets see....that's a LOT of pics! And he got 4 or 5 a year that paid the bills. So I wouldn't be worried about printing. I can sometimes get several printable shots a month, then not get any in a year. Edit, edit, edit.
 
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