Bill Pierce
Well-known
The Leica rangefinder camera has been around for a long time. It was not only the first 35mm rangefinder, it outlasted the competition from Zeiss, Nikon and Canon. It has been the primary working tool for a lot of photographers. It certainly was mine. There was a time when I had 3 around my neck, 3 more backing those up in case of theft or breakdown when I was on an out-the-country assignment for a few months and 3 with Norm Goldberg getting maintenance, lubrication and rangefinder checks. The M11 casts $9,000. Leica M lenses range from $2,400 for a 28/2.8 to $14,300 for a 75/1.25. That’s a little more than the $200 I used to pay for a lightly used M film body. And it asks the question is the current Leica worth it?
And the answer is, it depends. For one thing, it depends on how and what you are interested in photographing. The bright line finder has frame lines for lenses from 28 to 135mm, but the fixed magnification of the bright frame finder means that the longer lenses have relatively small viewfinder images. And Leitz has always been honest about the rangefinder’s ability to accurately focus longer lenses at large maximum apertures. The bright line finder that lets you see what is happening outside of the frame with an image that is sharp from close to distant is often heralded as an advantage for street and news photography. In truth, if you are working in that 35 to 75mm range that works well with the bright line finder, almost any picture situation, even a landscape, benefits from the ability to see what is just outside the frame and reframe if advisable. It also has to be said that Fuji offers two excellent APS-c cameras with bright line finders at a much lower price than the full frame M11.
For longer lenses, there is an accessory electronic viewfinder, the Visoflex, that. like the mirror housing predecessor of the film Leicas, allows for through the lens focusing and viewing. It’s not only excellent for longer lenses, it provides focusing accuracy for those high aperture lenses that strain the rangefinder’s accuracy. But, once again, it has to be pointed out that the two bright-line Fujis can also provide through the lens viewing and both manual and auto focusing.
The M11 provides 60mg files with the option of shooting at smaller sizes. In general this has been touted as an advantage if you want to make giant prints. I find a lot of cameras with less megapixels make good large prints if you don’t feel that you have to press your nose against them. The real advantage that I find is the ability to crop. A good lens, accurate focus, no camera motion along with a high megapixel sensor can allow for considerable cropping. Consider the Leica Q2 with a fixed 28mm lens and viewfinder frames and jpg cropping for 35mm, 50mm and 75mm frames. That said, the M11 is not the only camera with a lot of megapixels.
Leitz can’t make all the components for their digital cameras as they did for their film cameras. There were some problems with earlier cameras, but those seem to be gone. I never had a film Leica wear out in spite of heavy usage sometimes under rough conditions. I think you can probably say the same for the M11. I suspect your grandchildren will be able to use that old M11 you pass down to them. Will there be shiny new cameras with features the M11 doesn’t have? Of course, there are already. But there is something to be said for a single, simple camera, even limited, that becomes so familiar that you use it without thinking about it. Instead, you think about what is in front of it whether it’s your family and friends, your travels, your job or your hobby.
That’s right, I don’t think that M11 user has to always be interested in photography, just interested in what they photograph. It’s the kind of simple, long lasting camera that has limitations but is really good at simply documenting something, good for a certain kind of photographer but also good for the person whose primary interest is in the subject. And has a lot of money… Most photographers can get cameras with more features for less money. I think the days are passed where I could afford 9 Leica bodies. And there is the rub. At a time where digital cameras are still evolving and improving, albeit not as rapidly as they were, do you want to pay a high price for for a camera, one of whose major virtues is its long life? Your thoughts?
And the answer is, it depends. For one thing, it depends on how and what you are interested in photographing. The bright line finder has frame lines for lenses from 28 to 135mm, but the fixed magnification of the bright frame finder means that the longer lenses have relatively small viewfinder images. And Leitz has always been honest about the rangefinder’s ability to accurately focus longer lenses at large maximum apertures. The bright line finder that lets you see what is happening outside of the frame with an image that is sharp from close to distant is often heralded as an advantage for street and news photography. In truth, if you are working in that 35 to 75mm range that works well with the bright line finder, almost any picture situation, even a landscape, benefits from the ability to see what is just outside the frame and reframe if advisable. It also has to be said that Fuji offers two excellent APS-c cameras with bright line finders at a much lower price than the full frame M11.
For longer lenses, there is an accessory electronic viewfinder, the Visoflex, that. like the mirror housing predecessor of the film Leicas, allows for through the lens focusing and viewing. It’s not only excellent for longer lenses, it provides focusing accuracy for those high aperture lenses that strain the rangefinder’s accuracy. But, once again, it has to be pointed out that the two bright-line Fujis can also provide through the lens viewing and both manual and auto focusing.
The M11 provides 60mg files with the option of shooting at smaller sizes. In general this has been touted as an advantage if you want to make giant prints. I find a lot of cameras with less megapixels make good large prints if you don’t feel that you have to press your nose against them. The real advantage that I find is the ability to crop. A good lens, accurate focus, no camera motion along with a high megapixel sensor can allow for considerable cropping. Consider the Leica Q2 with a fixed 28mm lens and viewfinder frames and jpg cropping for 35mm, 50mm and 75mm frames. That said, the M11 is not the only camera with a lot of megapixels.
Leitz can’t make all the components for their digital cameras as they did for their film cameras. There were some problems with earlier cameras, but those seem to be gone. I never had a film Leica wear out in spite of heavy usage sometimes under rough conditions. I think you can probably say the same for the M11. I suspect your grandchildren will be able to use that old M11 you pass down to them. Will there be shiny new cameras with features the M11 doesn’t have? Of course, there are already. But there is something to be said for a single, simple camera, even limited, that becomes so familiar that you use it without thinking about it. Instead, you think about what is in front of it whether it’s your family and friends, your travels, your job or your hobby.
That’s right, I don’t think that M11 user has to always be interested in photography, just interested in what they photograph. It’s the kind of simple, long lasting camera that has limitations but is really good at simply documenting something, good for a certain kind of photographer but also good for the person whose primary interest is in the subject. And has a lot of money… Most photographers can get cameras with more features for less money. I think the days are passed where I could afford 9 Leica bodies. And there is the rub. At a time where digital cameras are still evolving and improving, albeit not as rapidly as they were, do you want to pay a high price for for a camera, one of whose major virtues is its long life? Your thoughts?
boojum
Mentor
There were serious electronic problems with the M8 and M9 and Leica was shameless in dealing with them. They dropped the ball with the electronics and they dropped the ball with the post-sale support. I understand they are now better. I have an M8.2 and an M9, both of which have been remedied. I like them. And an M240 but the Luddite in me likes the CCD sensors.
They are well-made cameras. They may last. They are way too expensive putting them into the realm of status symbols. I'd prefer this were not so. But who the Hell cares? They are not selling to me. I buy them used, and non-Leica lenses.
They are well-made cameras. They may last. They are way too expensive putting them into the realm of status symbols. I'd prefer this were not so. But who the Hell cares? They are not selling to me. I buy them used, and non-Leica lenses.
No, they are not for me these days. I just do not feel comfortable with $10000+ around my neck in some of the places I photograph. My used GFX was expensive enough at a fraction of the M11 price. Yeah, I just cannot feel good about paying Leica prices anymore.
Timmyjoe
Mentor
Interesting take on the M11 Bill. The one point I question is "I suspect your grandchildren will be able to use that old M11 you pass down to them." Not sure I'd agree with that on two fronts. First, not sure it will still be functioning and repairable by the time my grandchildren could use it, I remember the days, very recently, when Leica stopped repairing their CCD cameras (M9, ME, M8), and if your's gave up the ghost, sensor wise, you were out of luck. Second, not sure the files produced by the M11 will be of much use in the twenty or more years before my grandchildren could use an M11. Everything with digital moves at such a pace, twenty years is an eternity, with file formats, and pixel counts in constant flux.
I'm certainly not who Leica is marketing the M11 to, but my take on any digital camera I might be considering purchasing is "How much use can I get out of it before it is obsolete in five years?" I've not seen anything about the M11 that makes me feel it lies outside that parameter.
Now my M6 and M4 I can certainly see handing down to my Grandchildren someday.
Best,
-Tim
I'm certainly not who Leica is marketing the M11 to, but my take on any digital camera I might be considering purchasing is "How much use can I get out of it before it is obsolete in five years?" I've not seen anything about the M11 that makes me feel it lies outside that parameter.
Now my M6 and M4 I can certainly see handing down to my Grandchildren someday.
Best,
-Tim
neal3k
Well-known
If my main interest was longevity, I would think a Barnack Leica would be the one to have. It appears 35mm film will around a lot longer, at least in B&W, and there seems to be lots of folks in the world who continue to repair the oldies.
But my main interest is just the pleasure of photography. The Barnacks win there too, at least for me. I certainly realize they have too many limits for many genres but if they fit your style of photography, the Leica I, II or III models can be so much to so many.
But my main interest is just the pleasure of photography. The Barnacks win there too, at least for me. I certainly realize they have too many limits for many genres but if they fit your style of photography, the Leica I, II or III models can be so much to so many.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Megapixels... I am very happy with prints at 20x30" from my 24MPx bodies. I have higher MPx bodies, but pull them out for special situations, not everyday.
helen.HH
A smile & a wink…
Who really, really, really 'needs' an M11 ?
I seriously think it will make very Few a 'Better' photographer
I seriously think it will make very Few a 'Better' photographer
Dralowid
Michael
A friend still uses a Digilux 2 that has been completely reliable since new. He is very happy with it though nowadays it seems to attract some attention... Is this a 'classic digital Leica'?
Dogman
Mentor
My respect for Leica is great. The M11 appears to be an outstanding camera. I would love to own a digital Leica but I no longer find that a realistic expectation. Even if I could afford a $9000 body and a few $3000 lenses, I would not buy them. Just like I wouldn't buy an expensive brand automobile. I'm too damn practical. I don't need luxury gear to take the pictures I like taking. Don't need a lot of pixels either.
Benjamin Marks
Mentor
Yup. There was a period in the 1990's when my disposable income was sufficient to buy new Leica gear. But they went up and I went down. And they went way up. So I know who their current market is. It is folks with $10K to drop on a hobby at a single swipe of the ol' plastic, or folks who can write off the gear as a business expense. I assume that Leica is doing what it needs to do to survive as a niche player in the marketplace, but it is pretty clear that my contribution to their bottom line in the form of new gear purchases is not part of that plan. And that's OK. When the M11 has forced used prices down on the M10, that's where I'll go the next time I have a financial windfall. And in five years or so when the M12 comes out.. . . well you get the idea. This is "trailing edge" rather than "leading edge" consumerism. Ironically, Leica will see none of these dollars, because I and other middle-class fan boys will only have enough money to purchase used cameras on the secondary market. But these are facts so obvious that I am sure Leica has thought through this. Funnily enough, I know I don't need 60 MB files, because the first thing I do when I am working with my current 24 MB files is to discard some of that extra data to get a workable file. Honestly, I think 12 MB is about enough . . . which is probably part of the reason why phone sales are booming and camera sales are tanking.
[Edit: FWIW, I feel the same way about Sony, who seem to be committed to a certain level of technical excellence, but at a price point that is out of my comfort zone. Luckily, digital file quality has been high enough for my purposes for roughly the past 10 years, so as much as I love the smell of freshly unboxed poly-carbonate in the morning, there is no need to buy new gear from any brand. My personal set point for max $$$ spent on a camera body is around $2K these days. So even the Sonys remain out of reach for me on the new front. ]
It's a mirrorless camera with an auxiliary rangefinder on it. The always-on sensor increases lag when taking a photograph.
If my M9 goes out, I'll look for a gently used M10.
The M11 is electronic- and electronics die. Basic components stop working. Specialized components like the onboard processors get EOL "end-of-Life". Twenty years- we'll see how many still work. If the electronics need to be replaced, that is a major problem. The M3 will outlast the M11.
If my M9 goes out, I'll look for a gently used M10.
The M11 is electronic- and electronics die. Basic components stop working. Specialized components like the onboard processors get EOL "end-of-Life". Twenty years- we'll see how many still work. If the electronics need to be replaced, that is a major problem. The M3 will outlast the M11.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
Lots of people buy Porsches and drive them to the grocery store. Leicas are no different. That being said, I would certainly buy a Porsche and a Leica before I bought a boat. Right now, there is a guy on a boat forum rationalizing why he needs to buy a top of the line boat so he can putt putt over to the marina to get gas and then head over to have lunch at this restaurant on the other side of the lake. After lunch, he is going down to the boat dealership to look at sonar fish finders.
ranger9
Well-known
The M11's file size translates into 20x30 prints at 300ppi, and I can think of several kinds of photographers who need that right now. For example, suppose you're a high-end, editorial-style wedding photographer who carries a Leica M as a supplementary camera, or a documentary photographer who funds your projects in part through gallery sales (I don't know any of those people, but I know they exist.) Being able to sell larger prints means an M11 will start making you more money the moment you open the box. You'll be able to recover a good chunk of its price when you trade it in four years (for an M12 with 120 megapixels and no mechanical shutter, maybe?) and beyond that you don't care how long it lasts because you're all about return on investment (ROI.) What Leica is doing is exactly what this type of customer needs, and in a few months when they start rolling out the M11 Hermés and Reporter and whatever-that-rockstar-guy's-name is Special Editions for the uber-wealthy dilettantes, it'll all be gravy. I kind of hate how much sense this business model makes.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
Both the editorial-style wedding photographer and the documentary photographer would have better ROIs if they bought Sony A7RIVs. They've got 60MP too. Look, if you want to make money, you need to be doing whatever the uber-wealthy dilettantes buying the special edition Leicas are doing. They're not worrying about ROI.
zuiko85
Mentor
What Sonnar Brian said! Applies really to all electronically controlled film cameras going back to the late 1970’s through to end of the last century. Even if Leica laid in a generous supply of dedicated components and replacement sensors, they would deteriorate just sitting on a shelf.
No knock on Leica, after all they still theoretically have a basic film M in the MA and the MP. I say ‘theoretically’ because these models seem to be chronically back ordered or out of stock for months on end. So…..maybe they don’t actually make the MA and MP anymore but just keep them in the catalog to create the impression that they still care about film shooters.
No knock on Leica, after all they still theoretically have a basic film M in the MA and the MP. I say ‘theoretically’ because these models seem to be chronically back ordered or out of stock for months on end. So…..maybe they don’t actually make the MA and MP anymore but just keep them in the catalog to create the impression that they still care about film shooters.
JeffS7444
Well-known
If you anticipate departing this life within the next few years, then perhaps a digital Leica M camera might be thought of as an "heirloom" purchase. But otherwise, I think ~5 years of useful life from a digital M camera is a more reasonable expectation. Like other manufacturers, Leica hopes that you'll find future products just a bit more appealing!
kshapero
South Florida Man
Satisfied with my 7 year old M-P240 and my older Leica and Voigtlander lenses. Maybe when the M11 drops to under $4000, I'll jump in. Those specs are really nice.
RS2
Established
But just imagine how extraordinarily great those few will be!
Having been toying on and off with the idea of getting a digital Leica, I finally got myself an M10 last week for my 66th birthday. Aught to last me a while.
I'm fortunate to have kept a collection of 8 or 9 M lenses that I started buying in the 80s. Still have an M3 and a IIIf and some Tri-X somewhere.
So far, I'm very happy with my M10, although it's been far too cold to get out and do any serious street work with it.
Ron
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Leica M is a fun hobbyist camera. Probably has been for decades now. Mostly for the well heeled...or those that can scrounge up the cash for a dream.
No...it aint going to the jungle..or the ghetto..or another planet..nope it aint...lol..
The backyard is just fine...
No...it aint going to the jungle..or the ghetto..or another planet..nope it aint...lol..
The backyard is just fine...
ranger9
Well-known
They're probably already carrying Sonys or Canons for zoom lenses and video, plus the Leica M for low-light, close-quarters, and BTS photos. Swapping out their current M240 or M10 for the new model simply lets them get their whole kit into high-megapixel parity, which in turn probably makes shot selection easier.
Yeah, but the people who make money catering to the uber-wealthy do think about ROI, and they know that sometimes having a piece of gear that your competitors don't use and that impresses the potential client can be the edge that lets you close the sale in a highly-competitive marketplace where you can't afford to miss a trick.
I always think back to an article I read by a guy who specialized in actor headshots: He rented a 200mm f/2 lens and scored scads of new clients by showing it to them and telling them, "This lens is kind of special, most other photographers don't have it, and it will make your headshots stand out." Yeah, it's stupid, but if it works...