Godfrey
somewhat colored
You miss the point. I consider a camera "special" because it captures a scene as I have it in my mind when I see it. How such a camera compares to another camera that doesn't have that quality is irrelevant, not least of all because with a raw capture I can calibrate and make nearly any camera's output look like what I want. Special means two things: that the amount of work I need to do is nil to minimal at most, and that I like using the camera for whatever other reasons. I'm not trying to "prove" anything, I'm just trying to show what I mean.
The Leica M8/M9 were slow in operation and their weird color balances on JPEG capture basically made JPEGs from them unusable for me. Their raw files work fine, take a bit more work to make look good in my opinion. Various others of my Leicas, and other cameras, do far better on the JPEG output and usually require far less work on the raw files. And have better responsiveness/controls/etc as well. AS I said before, we won't agree on this subject...
"Deepest Darkest Santa Clara" is a wonderful place. So many nice neighborhoods to explore and photograph! I refer to it as Deepest Darkest Santa Clara because when I mention coming here to a nice restaurant with my weekly dinner group, I often get grumpy looks ... "Drive all the way there? You must be crazy!" Hmpf. They're in Cupertino to Sunnyvale to Mountain View, what's so freekin' hard about driving six miles? Sheesh.
G
boojum
Mentor
That you are pleased with how a camera works is great. But other than showing it pleases you it does not demonstrate how it is better than another camera for others to judge. You may think that The Fish Market in SC is the best place to eat ever.
There was an Italian joint on El Camino in SC which had great Ossa Bucco, Thursdays I think. We might both like them but until we try other Ossa Bucco we will be limited. I would not have tried other Ossa Bucco as these were stellar. They may not have been the best but I loved them. I never compared them to others. This is an analogy.
There was an Italian joint on El Camino in SC which had great Ossa Bucco, Thursdays I think. We might both like them but until we try other Ossa Bucco we will be limited. I would not have tried other Ossa Bucco as these were stellar. They may not have been the best but I loved them. I never compared them to others. This is an analogy.
JohnWolf
Well-known
FWIW, threads like this are why I don't participate much here anymore. The OP asks for feedback specifically from those who own a camera. A promising start. Eighty-some posts later and how many responses are by actual owners? Four, maybe? To me it seems so discourteous to the OP. And the ego and one-upmanship, though not surprising, are disappointing.
John
John
shawn
Mentor
That is really just the difference in contast, exposure, white and black points and DR between the two cameras though. This is your M240 picture from two different LR presets, one I made to emulate the RD-1 the other is a M9 look. Would have worked better on the RAW but it gives the idea pretty easily.
Shawn
Attachments
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I don't have to demonstrate that "one camera is better than another" because I am not trying to sell anything or convince anyone that they should like what I like. I'm trying to show what the cameras I like do, that's all, in hopes that the other participants in the conversation might understand my opinion. Whether one camera is "better" than another is a question I leave to the reviewers who swarm all over every new camera, saying one after another is better than the last, and never actually make a photograph worth looking at. I ignore all of those clowns...
To refer to your analogy: The Ossa Bucco at FJL2 in Mountain View is my favorite dish at that restaurant. I've not tried it elsewhere, and that's of no consequence to me. When I bring guests to that restaurant and they ask me what my favorite dish is, that's what I recommend they try if they want a meat dish. I can't convince them that they like it, only that they might try it because I like it. The people I take out to dinner in this way usually know me, understand how I form my opinions of things by trying things, experimenting, etc, and take that into account when I recommend for or against something. Most of the folks who've tried the Ossa Bucco at FJL2 after getting my recommendation have liked it too, but not all. That's fine far as I'm concerned...
There's a difference between trying to convince people about something, trying to "prove" something, and offering them an opinion derived from use and experimentation. They should then try whatever it is you recommended, if they're so inclined, so they can make their own judgements. Capisci?
In specific, since I've already said that I can take the raw output from almost any two cameras and make the rendered results look the same, to show how two cameras differ, and maybe "prove" that one does a better job than the other, requires a heck of a lot more than just showing two photos made with two different cameras. How two cameras differ and why one might be superior to the other for some purposes requires understanding the entire system from exposure to finished rendering, how to get there, and what it takes to get the same results.
G
boojum
Mentor
I couldn't agree more. My original question was a simple one about what was wrong with the owner's current camera. Period. Aprés ça le deluge. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait pas." Count passions as resident in the heart. Sometimes the more trivial a point the more passionately it is held. After all, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
We are many confined to quarters, bored, frustrated and listless. A bit of an imbroglio or even a good, old fashioned donnybrook can be fun at these times. It is all part of our failings as human beings. You want quietude and scholarly discussion? Ecclesiastical discourse is your best refuge. Faculty meetings can be open warfare and business meetings a trifle better. Quaker Meeting might do. It is balanced, rational, spiritual and unanimous. But out here in the general world I think these things can be expected.
As for M10 owner opinions about the camera, be wary. Which owner would say it is a dog if it is a dog? It is most likely a good camera. Better? How much? Yeah, here is where it gets sticky. How much picture quality devolves from above the shutter button and how much from below? Granted, it is so much fun pulling up alongside that Bentley in your Lagonda but how much of a difference will it make in a trip to the corner store for a six-pack and a bag of chips?
35photo
Well-known
You took the thread off the rails… by not answering the OPs question… instead you asked a question totally unrelated to the original question… But OK…
Emile de Leon
Well-known
No one who coughed up 9K for an M10..is ever gonna say they are unsatisfied w/it...and it sucks..
Unless it blew up on them..battery explosion or similar...and even then..Leica fanboy syndrome will immediately kick in..
They will mostly or always say.. its Freekin GREAT!! In public that is..
And the amount of folks that either have the cash to spend and actually purchase it..or have the dough..but dont want to buy..like me..
Or dont have the cash..
Narrows down the actual M10 buyers to an infinitesimally small #..esp on a forum such as this one..
So unless the OP just wants to hear all day long... 24/7..Its Freekin GREAT!!..from a couple of people that actually own it..
Then its natural that other people state their opinions on such a purchase..whether they own it or not..
Most here have probably thought at one time or another..of buying a digital M..and carefully weighed the pros and cons of such a purchase..and know what they are talking about.
For me..the cons..have consistently outweighed the pros..ever since I held the M8 way back when..
Still does..
But personally..if I wanted to spend that kind of dough..and Leica made the improvements that I need..I would just wait for the M11 as its due in very soon....and just future proof the purchase..
Unless it blew up on them..battery explosion or similar...and even then..Leica fanboy syndrome will immediately kick in..
They will mostly or always say.. its Freekin GREAT!! In public that is..
And the amount of folks that either have the cash to spend and actually purchase it..or have the dough..but dont want to buy..like me..
Or dont have the cash..
Narrows down the actual M10 buyers to an infinitesimally small #..esp on a forum such as this one..
So unless the OP just wants to hear all day long... 24/7..Its Freekin GREAT!!..from a couple of people that actually own it..
Then its natural that other people state their opinions on such a purchase..whether they own it or not..
Most here have probably thought at one time or another..of buying a digital M..and carefully weighed the pros and cons of such a purchase..and know what they are talking about.
For me..the cons..have consistently outweighed the pros..ever since I held the M8 way back when..
Still does..
But personally..if I wanted to spend that kind of dough..and Leica made the improvements that I need..I would just wait for the M11 as its due in very soon....and just future proof the purchase..
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I don't buy your thesis. I paid for my M9 and I've said publicly it wasn't particularly satisfactory. That's independent of the fact that it ultimately had a sensor corrosion problem. When that happened, I was offered market value for it in trade for a new M-P 240, and I chose to do that.
I chose not to buy an M10, yet, because I'm very satisfied with what I get out of a CL. But I haven't taken that possibility off the table. It looks like a fine digital M to me.
I wouldn't commit to saying I might buy an M11 until the M11 is announced since I know nothing about it until it's an announced product.
G
boojum
Mentor
"3 days ago
Originally posted by David_Manning View Post
Selling two other bodies and buying an M10-P (that's the plan, anyway). Spent a lot of time reading reviews.
Everyone satisfied with theirs?
What's wrong with the camera you have now?"
"You took the thread off the rails… by not answering the OPs question… instead you asked a question totally unrelated to the original question… But OK…"
Maybe I am dense but asking a fellow contemplating purchasing a camera about the state of his current camera seems rational and instructive. I am curious about his camera and I am curious why it is not sufficient. I asked before and I will ask again, "By a show of hands how many have missed the Pulitzer of NatGeo prize because of their camera?" How many have missed any prize because of their camera? Let me know.
I may be contemplating the purchase of an M10 myself. You don't know. Did that ever occur to you? You just might want to consider that.
Originally posted by David_Manning View Post
Selling two other bodies and buying an M10-P (that's the plan, anyway). Spent a lot of time reading reviews.
Everyone satisfied with theirs?
What's wrong with the camera you have now?"
"You took the thread off the rails… by not answering the OPs question… instead you asked a question totally unrelated to the original question… But OK…"
Maybe I am dense but asking a fellow contemplating purchasing a camera about the state of his current camera seems rational and instructive. I am curious about his camera and I am curious why it is not sufficient. I asked before and I will ask again, "By a show of hands how many have missed the Pulitzer of NatGeo prize because of their camera?" How many have missed any prize because of their camera? Let me know.
I may be contemplating the purchase of an M10 myself. You don't know. Did that ever occur to you? You just might want to consider that.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Godfrey,
Doent matter really much at all because in any case..any dude w/9K to spend on an M..either wants it..or doesnt know better..
Your experience of course only applies to you and no one else..like any opinion including my own..
Nothing really to argue about..nothing to win or lose..
I remember one time at Stan Tamarkins back in the day..
Some 20 year old rich kid bought a brand spankin new M6 and F1.0 Noctilux..as their 1st camera..
Couldnt figure out how to use it..returned it for a loss a week later..
Takes all kindz..
We had a good laugh about it..
Doent matter really much at all because in any case..any dude w/9K to spend on an M..either wants it..or doesnt know better..
Your experience of course only applies to you and no one else..like any opinion including my own..
Nothing really to argue about..nothing to win or lose..
I remember one time at Stan Tamarkins back in the day..
Some 20 year old rich kid bought a brand spankin new M6 and F1.0 Noctilux..as their 1st camera..
Couldnt figure out how to use it..returned it for a loss a week later..
Takes all kindz..
We had a good laugh about it..
boojum
Mentor
And, this is the nubbin:
"As for M10 owner opinions about the camera, be wary. Which owner would say it is a dog if it is a dog? It is most likely a good camera. Better? How much? Yeah, here is where it gets sticky. How much picture quality devolves from above the shutter button and how much from below? Granted, it is so much fun pulling up alongside that Bentley in your Lagonda but how much of a difference will it make in a trip to the corner store for a six-pack and a bag of chips?"
"As for M10 owner opinions about the camera, be wary. Which owner would say it is a dog if it is a dog? It is most likely a good camera. Better? How much? Yeah, here is where it gets sticky. How much picture quality devolves from above the shutter button and how much from below? Granted, it is so much fun pulling up alongside that Bentley in your Lagonda but how much of a difference will it make in a trip to the corner store for a six-pack and a bag of chips?"
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Emile,
If it "doesn't matter at all" then why do we have a discussion board to converse about these things? and why do you, would you, participate on it if you already know better anyway?
Boojum,
I stand firm by the opinion I implied right at the beginning of this kerfuffle, in my first post to the thread: If someone asks a question, one should try to answer the question first before leaping off into other possibly related, possibly interesting discussions, but also possibly completely irrelevant discussion of why they want to do what they intend.
I consider the other participants on RFF to be intelligent, passionate people who enjoy camera equipment and photography, and as generally well informed in that regard. I don't feel the need to lecture them with questions as to why they want to do what they want unless the question they posed implies that they are trying to figure out what they want to do. Asking whether other M10 owners are satisfied with their purchase, the original poster's question, should first be addressed before delving into other, secondary thoughts about the purchase of a new, expensive camera, in my perspective.
G
If it "doesn't matter at all" then why do we have a discussion board to converse about these things? and why do you, would you, participate on it if you already know better anyway?
Boojum,
I stand firm by the opinion I implied right at the beginning of this kerfuffle, in my first post to the thread: If someone asks a question, one should try to answer the question first before leaping off into other possibly related, possibly interesting discussions, but also possibly completely irrelevant discussion of why they want to do what they intend.
I consider the other participants on RFF to be intelligent, passionate people who enjoy camera equipment and photography, and as generally well informed in that regard. I don't feel the need to lecture them with questions as to why they want to do what they want unless the question they posed implies that they are trying to figure out what they want to do. Asking whether other M10 owners are satisfied with their purchase, the original poster's question, should first be addressed before delving into other, secondary thoughts about the purchase of a new, expensive camera, in my perspective.
G
boojum
Mentor
I missed that part of the rule book. Forgive me.
Archiver
Mentor
Back in the day, Sigma released the first aps-c compact, the DP1. Every review talked about its strange colours, slow operation, creaky autofocus and tiny buffer. And it was expensive for the size and fixed focal length. But I bought one anyway because I was entranced by the images, and because I was fully informed about its shortcomings, I wasn't disappointed.
Fast forward to the Sigma DP2M. The original DP1 was so pleasing and fun that I bought a DP2 the next year, then waited until the DP2M went on special a few years later. Now that was disappointing, as it had lost the Foveon magic that I gained from the DP1 and DP2, and was even slower and clunkier in operation. Skin tones were dreadful; several Panasonics with much smaller sensors were better.
In between, I bought the M9, which originally frustrated me, but now remains my favourite camera. The colour and overall handling outweigh the smallish buffer, noisy shutter, poor high ISO performance, etc. It cost me AUD $9300 at the time, more than enough to buy a pro Canon body with much better capabilities, but it was, and still is, well worth it to me. Is the huge amount of money a factor in my appreciation? Yeah, maybe it is. But if it didn't have colours and operating feel that I like, it would never be my favourite camera. Interestingly, I have yet to consistently see M10 images with colours that I like in the same way as the M9. This gives me a bit of pause, but others have their own colour preferences.
David_Manning
Well-known
Trying to stay on-topic (of my own), after chatting with the Lady of the house (Mrs. Manning), I had a difficult time communicating technical reasons for an M10-P or -R purchase, as opposed to my current Canon R5. She made logical arguments, which I couldn't really refute...except to default to emotion and say I will like it better.
Then she threw the grenade...why am I not looking at the M10 Monochrom, a truly different camera? (90% of my images become b&w anyway).
Women!!!
(she's right though...that Monochrom is truly more unique...so, more to contemplate).
So...stand by for a new post..."Everyone satisfied with their M10 Monochrom?"
Then she threw the grenade...why am I not looking at the M10 Monochrom, a truly different camera? (90% of my images become b&w anyway).
Women!!!
(she's right though...that Monochrom is truly more unique...so, more to contemplate).
So...stand by for a new post..."Everyone satisfied with their M10 Monochrom?"
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Hahaha..!
Leica M is an emotional purchase..plain and simple..
You get it.. or you dont..
You can head trip it till the cows come home..
But all mental discussion on such a matter is really moot..
You have to get it out of your system..you already know that..
So what ..ya gonna do..
Yup..just..
Whip out that card tomorrow..and have done w/it..
I almost bought the M8..then the M9..and then the M240..
Couldnt quite work up the luv though..as my M3 & M6 would be lonely..
And Leicas..dont like to be lonely..
Godfrey
somewhat colored
...
Then she threw the grenade...why am I not looking at the M10 Monochrom, a truly different camera? (90% of my images become b&w anyway).
...
So...stand by for a new post..."Everyone satisfied with their M10 Monochrom?"
That's a good grenade.
I had an M Monochrome typ 246 on order for it seemed an age. Finally canned the order when the SL was announced and went for that instead.
I'd buy an M10-Monochrom without hesitation but for my still depleted bank account.
(Automobile toys cost a lot more than camera toys, on average...) It's one of the few cameras on my "yeah, I want one" list nowadays.G
35photo
Well-known
Trying to stay on-topic (of my own), after chatting with the Lady of the house (Mrs. Manning), I had a difficult time communicating technical reasons for an M10-P or -R purchase, as opposed to my current Canon R5. She made logical arguments, which I couldn't really refute...except to default to emotion and say I will like it better.
Then she threw the grenade...why am I not looking at the M10 Monochrom, a truly different camera? (90% of my images become b&w anyway).
Women!!!
(she's right though...that Monochrom is truly more unique...so, more to contemplate).
So...stand by for a new post..."Everyone satisfied with their M10 Monochrom?"
Hit it and quit as James Brown once said… You’re wife is good people I’d say
Well, a purchase of a Leica isn't technical for some of us. It is about how it feels in your hand, using a rangefinder for manual focus, and its simplicity in use. However, the wife helped you spend more money this time... so, go for it before she changes her mind! M10 Monochrom sounds fun.