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Black Paint Leicas - interesting article...
Old 11-24-2016   #1
Waus
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Black Paint Leicas - interesting article...

http://leicaphilia.com/the-coming-cr...rket/#comments

What do you think?
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Old 11-24-2016   #2
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Markets wax and wane all the time. As far a eBay sales are concerned it only takes two nitwits with more money than brains to run a price up beyond all reason. For those who are not collectors but still use film cameras including Leicas then a more cosmetically challenged but cheaper 'user' camera (read more common) is all that we seek.

That said, I quite see his point. What if you fall into a deal and come to own an item that has far more value sold than used. That happened to me when I bought a OM-2sp for a mere $100 not because I wanted it but because it came with the 40mm f2 Zuiko, which at the time was going for insane prices. It was pristine and I sold it for north of $500 which helped to finance other more desirable (to me) photo equipment.
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Old 11-24-2016   #3
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Could be, could be.


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Old 11-24-2016   #4
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My M4 was bought as a repaint and if I sell it will be sold as a repaint.

My issue with the leica community in general is that the cameras can be very valuable and greed often takes over. I've bought a couple M's as "CLA'd" without proof that turned out to need overhauls months later. People lie and fail to disclose information as they pawn off their hidden issues to unsuspecting buyers.

In this sense I hate leica. It's also why when my cameras are overhauled and in tip top shape, they don't leave my sights when I lend them or give for people to look at them.
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Old 11-24-2016   #5
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Wishful thinking. I predict the exact opposite. Originals will always be worth good money for one simple reason, they're not making any new ones! I see some m2's priced way over at a few dealers, 18-20k and this is just the dealers seeing how far they can push the market. The real value is probably half of that but it only takes a few to pay the higher price and all of a sudden things get crazy. My bet is that M2 and M3 stabilize with small increases and over the next 5 years BP M4's go skyward just the same due to same reason as above. You can pick up an M4 at the moment for 2-2.5k private which sounds like a bargain when you see what some are charging for chrome m2,3 and 4's.
Even the M4 BP is being tested by the dealers now to see how much the market will pay.
People like BP cameras and lenses and there is still a huge market for them so I wouldn't expect any great reductions anytime soon.
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Old 11-24-2016   #6
Erik van Straten
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A real one, without any doubt.

Erik.
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Old 11-24-2016   #7
John Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
I've bought a couple M's as "CLA'd" without proof that turned out to need overhauls months later. People lie and fail to disclose information as they pawn off their hidden issues to unsuspecting buyers.
I've found this to be true also. However, often the cameras I purchased had been serviced / CLA'd by someone who really either didn't know what they were doing and / or didn't have the proper tools and equipment to do it anyway.

In my experience, plenty of camera repairers will tell you they can fix or service your Leica, but few can do the job properly.

Cheers,

John
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Old 11-24-2016   #8
Roger Hicks
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Who cares?

I had a BP M3 in good condition, bought in the 1980s as far as I recall for 200 (the price I do remember). I sold it for several times that because (a) I use 35mm lenses a lot and (b) selling it enabled me to buy something I couldn't otherwise have afforded.

My MP (the modern one) is BP because I think it's prettier than any other available finish. My M4-P is black chrome and is one of the ugliest genuine Leicas I have ever seen. My M9 is black paint as well, though I prefer the paint on the MP.

There is nothing wrong with buying an attractive camera to use, especially if (as with my MP and M9) it costs no more than chrome.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 11-24-2016   #9
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Black paint Leicas have appreciated. I bought a black paint M2 in Paris in the mid 90's for $700 canadian. I later sold that and a BP M4 for about $1400 when I stopped using 35mm for a period. I do agree that the BP look & wear more nicely than the black chrome. Now that I've started using 35mm again I'm happy with a black MP....but I sure do miss that M2.
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Old 11-24-2016   #10
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Mountain/molehill.

Repaints are easy to detect. Shintaro painted one for me in 2000 and it was a work of art but in no way would anyone confuse it for an original.

More high quality repaints on the market just means the resale prices will be lower than otherwise, but like any Leica price is largely determined by individual condition.
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Old 11-24-2016   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waus View Post
an article about IMO an obviously not original black paint M2.

the finish does not look right, not even remotely close to right.

I don't see how it could fool any experienced buyer as being original.
Whether it was an original BP M2 before being refinished I have no opinion.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Serial numbers can be altered during refinishing.

Stephen
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Old 11-24-2016   #12
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Mountain/molehill.

Repaints are easy to detect.
Not really, the good repaints are perfect, done to profit from the collectible market.

Stephen
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Old 11-24-2016   #13
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That's the first good indication of a repaint...perfection...
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Old 11-24-2016   #14
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I first saw that M2 on NYC craigslist, and while I'm no collector it seems the paint does not have the right look to be original.

I don't think black paint Leicas will come down in value anytime soon. Unless there is some global economic crisis. And if that's the case, a black paint Leica won't really matter anyway.

A repaint Leica to me is worth the price of a chrome Leica in similar condition with the cost of the paint going into the value. Not adding any extra value.
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Old 11-25-2016   #15
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Looking closely at this camera set this is what I see.
Listed number
all original controls which have some rub wear and flaking consistant with original paint including the bubbling spots etc. This is also present on the lens.
I have never seen anyone able to fake this. Yes you can fake flaking and rub wear but not that tiny pin prick bubble finish.
Top plate looks like an original. It has the beginings of that effect however the wear in terms of amount or age doesn't match the controls.
The wear on the button rewind collar would indicate to me that there should be more wear to the front of that top plate. Same on the rewind side.
The preview lever looks way too fresh.
I think that this is 100% original however I think it's had a replacement top plate from Leica probably late 60's, early 70's.
The lens looks 100% genuine paint wise with consistant paint bubbling.
It's also very difficult to get brass to look like it's been out in the open for decades and this is consistant in that regard.
To Erik,
Did the earlier cameras not have the thinner, laquer more glossy finish which sometime mid 60's moved to a thicker more matt look?

Whatever it's history it looks original Leitz Black paint but to me probably not as it left the factory in 58'
A very nice camera and lens set.
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Old 11-25-2016   #16
Erik van Straten
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The only thing not correct on the camera is the chrome part in the center of the speed dial. That should be black.

Erik.



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Old 11-25-2016   #17
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thanks Erik
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Old 11-25-2016   #18
HuubL
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Amazing: one number apart...
Erik, is ...895 yours?
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Old 11-25-2016   #19
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuubL View Post
Amazing: one number apart...
Erik, is ...895 yours?
No Huub, a long time ago I started to collect pictures of black painted M-Leicas. I have many of them in my archives. Comes out handy sometimes!

Erik.
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Old 11-25-2016   #20
John Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
Not really, the good repaints are perfect, done to profit from the collectible market.

Stephen
Exactly.

I tried to sell my BP M2 earlier this year and found it difficult to find reputable dealers willing to take it on, without the following:

a) Full provenance

b) A written guarantee that it was all completely original / as it left the factory.

And this was despite having the camera fully serviced (as I do with all cameras before selling them) by a world renowned Leica expert who confirmed that it was a genuine BP M2.

All the dealers said that without (a) and (b) they were not prepared to take the risk of being sued, or getting into an argument over the authenticity of it.

Cheers,

John
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Old 11-25-2016   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
The only thing not correct on the camera is the chrome part in the center of the speed dial. That should be black.

Erik.



I've never noticed that before that's a good one!
The hotshoe (or coldshoe) is a bit of a giveaway also as no matter how well the camera is looked after as soon as its used marks start showing.
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Old 11-26-2016   #22
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Very interesting but I think long term genuine black paint Leicas will be a good investment.

So what's the tale away from the article? Don't buy off eBay is the obvious one but as always it's best to deal with a professional dealer.
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Old 11-26-2016   #23
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I've sold genuine black paint Leicas on ebay as have many other legit sellers which often are 'professional dealers.' The latter description isn't a guarantee, either.

One has to really work to be ripped off via eBay, but careless buyers can indeed accomplish such a feat.

I always enjoy advice that steers buyers away from eBay, which increases the odds of my getting a bargain, like the black paint M2 that I acquired which was listed at $100 'buy it now.'
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Old 11-26-2016   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
I've bought a couple M's as "CLA'd" without proof that turned out to need overhauls months later. People lie and fail to disclose information as they pawn off their hidden issues to unsuspecting buyers.
Yup, happened to me too with my M4-2 that I bought on RFF.

That's why it's safer to buy on ebay because they provide buyer protection.
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Old 11-26-2016   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc_rufctr View Post
Very interesting but I think long term genuine black paint Leicas will be a good investment.

So what's the tale away from the article? Don't buy off eBay is the obvious one but as always it's best to deal with a professional dealer.
ebay provides more buyer protection than community sites like ours. professional dealers can also be had by fakes, it happens all the time in the art market.

This bit from the article is amusing:

"There was a reason Leica started producing their black cameras in black chrome starting with the M5 in 1971 – traditional black paint Leicas looked like crap after a few years of use."

And yet people like that worn look so much Leica introduced the Lenny Kravitz Correspondent pre-worn Leica last year!

The only way to insure that you have a real black paint Leica is to buy it new from Leica. Currently that would be the MP film, M9, M240...
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Old 11-26-2016   #26
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
The only way to insure that you have a real black paint Leica is to buy it new from Leica. Currently that would be the MP film, M9, M240...
Or buy old black painted cameras from the well known number blocks. They are safe. It ain't no use to make a fake black paint Leica from a Leica that was painted by the factory when it was made.

To fake the number convincingly on an M-Leica is extremely difficult, actually impossible.

Erik.
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Old 11-26-2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post

The only way to insure that you have a real black paint Leica is to buy it new from Leica. Currently that would be the MP film, M9, M240...
Imho this is total rubbish.
There are plenty of genuine BP M2's, 3's and 4's out there. The only reason to be duped is by not being informed. Before anyone buys a BP camera they should educate themselves and or seek the advice of others who know about them.
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Old 11-26-2016   #28
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Old 11-26-2016   #29
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Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
Imho this is total rubbish.
There are plenty of genuine BP M2's, 3's and 4's out there. The only reason to be duped is by not being informed. Before anyone buys a BP camera they should educate themselves and or seek the advice of others who know about them.
How can it be rubbish if there are some real bp's out there that are not from the numbered blocks, but ones that Leica themselves painted after being sold? Those have not been recorded as bp cameras officially, yet are.

The information out there is not perfect.
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Old 11-26-2016   #30
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The 180 degree differences among the well informed people here on this forum who could legitimately be called experts, seems to validate at least the half of his contention that people really no longer know if a BP is 'original' or not. This fact does not automatically lead to the conclusion that the market will crash, but, if one cognoscenti buys one of "certain" provenance, it is very likely that his cognoscenti friend will be laughing behind his back at how gullible he is.
Better to just buy one because you love the look. If it wasn't made in the Soviet bloc it's real enough anyway.
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Old 11-26-2016   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
How can it be rubbish if there are some real bp's out there that are not from the numbered blocks, but ones that Leica themselves painted after being sold? Those have not been recorded as bp cameras officially, yet are.

The information out there is not perfect.
No and I agree that the info is not perfect BUT your statement that the only way to ensure a BP camera is original is to buy new from Leica is incorrect.
There is far too much mis information being thrown about on the internet.
With this particular camera there were some here quick to shout fake but without fact or explanation. I don't claim to be an expert but I do know quite a lot about paint finishing and what originality should look like. There are plenty of others here who are far more qualified with regard to the small details and differences. Leica serial numbering is well known for being erratic at times and I've no doubt there are originals not on the well known lists however detailed examination of any camera under investigation will usually reveal it's authenticity. It is my understanding that when a chrome camera went back to Leica it wasn't painted. It had the top plate replaced along with all other parts and was stamped with the old number. The chrome top was then destroyed. For all intent and purpose a genuine BP but with a chrome number.
The depth of the engravings/stampings on the top plate is one of the biggest tells of original BP. Deeper to account for paint fill.
The way the paint has aged, the flaking, bubbling etc.
Does the wear on all parts seem matched etc
If all of these things survive scrutiny then we can reasonably determine the authenticity of a particular camera.
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Old 11-26-2016   #32
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Just go by the established serial number lists. Anything outside these ranges is suspect, even if there is a small chance that it's a legit factory black paint.

There is a lot of variation in authentic bp cameras, so there is no one 'magic method' of authentication.

A large number of repaints isn't going to affect the value of authentic ones
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Old 11-26-2016   #33
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Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
The only thing not correct on the camera is the chrome part in the center of the speed dial. That should be black.

Erik.



The difference between these two paint jobs is there, just look closely.

For those who think the top camera is original, my advice is buy Jim Lager books.

Stephen
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Old 11-26-2016   #34
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How can it be rubbish if there are some real bp's out there that are not from the numbered blocks, but ones that Leica themselves painted after being sold? Those have not been recorded as bp cameras officially, yet are.

The information out there is not perfect.
You are correct Huss. I normally will not get involved with this show and tell stuff I see, but I purchased a lime green M3 (last batch) from a Leica dealer here that was used as a salesman promo in mint condition. It did have a M4 type #. When I traded it in in 1970, it still was mint. I still have all the original papers/documents to this camera. It did come up in Canada recently were the guy states he is the original owner. When he was confronted that someone from Thunder Bay has the papers; he fell silent. Not all M lists are "fully accurate, but close"
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Old 11-26-2016   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
The difference between these two paint jobs is there, just look closely.

For those who think the top camera is original, my advice is buy Jim Lager books.

Stephen
If you compare the script width and spacing of these 2 cameras with any chrome M2 top plate script you will find that the BP cameras have thicker letters whereas the chrome versions are thin and sharp.
That top camera has a plate that was made to take paint and not chrome.
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Old 11-26-2016   #36
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
The difference between these two paint jobs is there, just look closely.
The picture of 948896 is maybe taken with an iPhone 7. Much of the visual information is created by the iPhone I guess.

To compare, you'll need the cameras, not only pictures.

Erik.
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Old 11-26-2016   #37
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If you compare the script width and spacing of these 2 cameras with any chrome M2 top plate script you will find that the BP cameras have thicker letters whereas the chrome versions are thin and sharp.
That top camera has a plate that was made to take paint and not chrome.
the paint is wrong on the upper camera. the wear pattern is also wrong. look at rewind knobs on both cameras, look at the advance levers on both cameras

the upper camera has been repainted, regardless of whether or not it was originally black paint.
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Old 11-26-2016   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
the upper camera has been repainted, regardless of whether or not it was originally black paint.
Difficult, because the serial number is engraved into the paint. When it is repainted, the numbers must be filled with black so it would have been difficult to fill them with white. Not so with the logo, because that is a stamp.

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Old 11-26-2016   #39
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the paint is wrong on the upper camera. the wear pattern is also wrong. look at rewind knobs on both cameras, look at the advance levers on both cameras

the upper camera has been repainted, regardless of whether or not it was originally black paint.
Stephen,
in my post number 15 here I mention the wear pattern and also that I think it's a replacement top but original Leica.
regards j
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Old 11-26-2016   #40
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I knew the Leica rep well for Northern Ontario and part of the Western Provinces. One of their biggest sales stores was Crooks Pharmacy, in Thunder Bay. The rep told me very clear the Leica Germany would repaint any M2's or M3's that were bubbling on the black paint. I personally know of some going and getting done. Others wanted it, but were afraid of loosing them; so they left them as is. No doubt we see some of the changes done at the factory. Guys just have to keep their papers on this stuff, and back than they were not darling collectables as they are today.
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