[M5] Lenses not usable on M5 ?
Old 02-07-2008   #1
veraikon
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[M5] Lenses not usable on M5 ?

In the manual of the M5 some lenses are listed which should not be used (without mods) on a M5 because of the CdS-sensor lever. The manual was printed in 1975.
Especially from 1999 the M-System revival started and various producers except Leica offered “M” or LTM + Adapter lenses. (Voigtländer/Cosina, Zeiss, Avenon, Konica….).
Before 1972 there were a large variety of “vintage” LTM Lenses which are of course not listed in the M5 manual.

My question is which lenses not mentioned below can cause problems with the M5?
(suggestiona re V/C Heliar 2/50?, V/C Nokton 1,2/35?, new collapsible Elmar 11823 ? )

The Limit of penetration into the M5 body of the collapsible lenses is up to 13mm. (remark George S)

Negative list:
Leitz:
_ Super Angulon 3,4/21 before Nr. 2 473 251,
_ Elmarit 2,8/28 ab Nr. 2 314 921.
_ Super Angulon 4/21 LTM
_ collapsible Elmar 2.8/50 11612
_ collapsible 4,0/90 mm Elmar-M 11131 ILNOO

Not mentioned in the manual:

Leica:
?

FSU
_ Jupiter 12 2.8/35 (caused by back lens) see remark from rxmd
_ all collapsible 50s (remark rxmd)

Voigtländer/Cosina:
?

Carl Zeiss
?

Kobalux/Avenon/Pasoptik/Adorama
?

Konica
?



Positive List (posted by... )

Voigtländer / Cosina

_ VC 12mm (12/5.6 ASPH Ultra Wide Heliar) without problems. (post by czamagni see post)

_ VC 15mm (15/4.5 ASPH Super Wide Heliar) without problems. (post by czamagni see post)

_ VC 21mm (21/4 Color-Skopar MC) (post + remark by rxmd)

_ VC 25mm (25/4 Snapshot-Skopar?) without problems. (post by czamagni see post)

_ 50/2 collapsible Heliar will not interfere with the M5 meter either.(KoNickon see also http://www.cameraquest.com/m5.htm


Carl Zeiss Oberkochen

_
ZM 21 works fine (posted sepiareverb) Question: Both ?Biogon T* 2,8/21 ZM ; C Biogon T* 4,5/21 ZM ?

_ ZM 25 (Biogon T* 2,8/25 ZM) works fine (posted sepiareverb)

FSU

_ Orion 5.6/28mm (santefecino)

Last edited by veraikon : 02-13-2008 at 02:32.
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Old 02-07-2008   #2
rxmd
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FSU:

- all the collapsible 50s

All the screw mount lenses can be made to work with a proper LTM-M adapter. You can file down part of the bottom lug so that the meter arm doesn't come out. Then you can use a collapsible Industar or a J-12 as well. You don't get metering of course, but this way you can collapse them all the way without damaging any internals.

The same way many M lenses can be made to work, only you have to file the lens itself rather than the adapter.

Philipp
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Last edited by rxmd : 02-07-2008 at 03:36.
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Old 02-07-2008   #3
sepiareverb
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Note the collapsible lenses will work fine, you just CAN NOT collapse them into the body without damaging the metering arm.

It is things protruding into the body that cause trouble. The ZM 21, 25 are fine. I'd guess a general rule would be any lens that needs a deeper rear cap should be mounted with caution if at all. Wayne may have more to say around this.
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Old 02-07-2008   #4
Vincenzo Maielli
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Not usable absolutely:
A) LTM MOUNT:
Kobalux/Avenon/Pasoptik/Adorama 21 mm f/ 2,8.
Kobalux/Avenon/Pasoptik/Adorama 28 mm f/ 3,5.
VC Ultra Heliar Aspherical 12 mm f/ 5,6.
VC Heliar Aspherical 15 mm f/ 4,5.
VC Color Skopar 21 mm f/ 4.
VC Snapshot Skopar 25 mm f/ 4.
VC Ultron Aspherical 28 mm f/ 1,9.
Russian Mir/Russar 20 mm f/ 5,6.
Russian Orion 28 mm f/ 6.
Russian Jupiter-12 35 mm f/ 2,8.

B) M MOUNT:
VC Color Skopar 21 mm f/ 1,4.

I don't know about the incompatibility from VC Nokton 35 mm f/ 1,2 and Leica M5.

The collapsible lenses are compatible with Leica M5, without collapsing the lens.
The Leitz Super Angulon M 21 mm f/ 3,4 from matriculation number 2473252 is usable on Leica M5 but without metering. Up to the matriculation number 2473251 is requested a bayonet modification to allow the compatibility with Leica M5 (always without metering).
The Leitz Elmarit M 28 mm f/ 2,8 from matriculation number 2314922 is usable on Leica M5 but without metering. Up to the matriculation number 2314921 is requested a bayonet modification to allow the compatibility with Leica M5 (always without metering).
The Summaron/Summicron 35 mm f/ 2 with goggles are fully compatible with M5.
Ciao.
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Old 02-07-2008   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincenzo Maielli
Not usable absolutely:
VC Color Skopar 21 mm f/ 4.
I don't know where you got this list from, but it looks like a random list of wideangle lenses rather than a list that has anything to do with the M5. For example, the Skopar 21/f4 works just fine, and the meter works, too. I use it every day, with the 50 frameline for metering with reasonable accuracy. I would take this list with several grains of salt.

Given that rearwards the CV lenses don't protrude very far, I would assume that all the others work, too. It would be interesting why you think they shouldn't.

Just about the only CV lens where I'd have doubts is the CV Heliar 50/f3.5, which you probably can't collapse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincenzo Maielli
Russian Orion 28 mm f/ 6.
Similarly. Have you ever seen an Orion-15? They don't protrude very far to the back. I don't have one here, but I would assume it works just fine.

Philipp
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Old 02-07-2008   #6
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Kisselbach's book lists the limit of penetration into the M5 body of the collapsible lenses to 13mm. (16mm for the Leica CL).

He explains and shows a picture of the collapsible lens and tape placement. [ The old "Dymo" brand thick plastic labeling tape ] (Page 57) . For the M5 he says to place a 9.5mm width tape on the collapsible barrel mount right up against the front of the lens (the aperture scale). The Hektor f/2.5 50 needs a 12.7 mm band of tape, or place the tape lower on the barrel.

This measurement - 13mm - should allow you to measure any lens, old or new, and determine its usability or need for modification.

Last edited by George S. : 02-07-2008 at 10:11.
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Old 02-07-2008   #7
veraikon
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I also believe that Vicenzos list is a little bit heuristic e.g. For the VC Super Wide Heliar 4.5 /15 I found following remark: “can be used with M5- but metering seems to be wrong”.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...iar-15-m5.html
13 mm from Kisselbachs book is a very good and useful information if you have the lens. !
But I haven´t it yet. About 2.5 weeks ago I purchased my M5 at Berlin. I decided buying my first Leica (my RF experiences are from Zorki 4, SLR from M42 and Contax ) in a shop in the City and not by e-b… from Kleinmachnow. I went in and asked for viewing different M6, M4-P, M4, M5 which were in my budget. I liked the M5 with the first look trough the viewfinder. Checked it and bought it. It was under my planned budget and even in comparison with eb.. not overpriced.
I use my Jupiter 8, 9 and Industar 61 L/D and CZ Flektogon 2.8/ 20 with adapter – but I need a substitution for my J 12. That’s the background for my question.
Thanks to all for reponse. I hope we can make a reliable list
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Old 02-07-2008   #8
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Regarding substitution for the J-12: I have a CV 35/f2.5 that I don't use a lot at the moment. It will work on the M5. If you're interested, either in buying it or in having it on loan for a while, send me a PM.

Philipp
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Old 02-07-2008   #9
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With the 15mm Heliar you should use something like the 35mm frameline for "spot" metering. You could easily get the impression that metering is wrong.
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Old 02-07-2008   #10
Charles Woodhouse
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Hi Philipp,
thanks for the tip about filing down the adapter lug to fit a Jupiter-12 to an M5. I did a similar job on my M3 3.5/35 Summaron to bring up the 35 frame on the M5, and made up a slip on brass adapter to simulate the M3 "eyes". The lens is now perfect for M3 and M5.
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Old 02-08-2008   #11
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Thanks Phillip for the offer- but as “second” 35mm I look for some faster lens. 2.5 is to near to 2.8. Ultron 1.7 or Nokton 1.4/1.2 Biogon 2/35 – Leitz is even used out of budget Ultron 1.7 LTM would be the best I could use it on the Zorki as on the M5 –
and thx for tipp with filing down
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Old 02-08-2008   #12
czamagni
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all leitz collapsible 50s in screw or M mount, except the Summicrons and the 2,8/Elmar from 1993.

I have also used VC 12/15/25mm without problems.
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Old 02-08-2008   #13
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I understand the 50/2 collapsible Heliar will not interfere with the M5 meter either.
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Old 02-08-2008   #14
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Just a note on filing down the adapter lug: there are two different lugs. If you look at the body from the front, the lug for the frameline selector is on the right, the one for bringing up the metering stalk is at the bottom.

If you look at an adapter, from the back with the red dot at the top, the "frameline" lug is in the 7 o'clock position, while the "metering stalk" lug is in the 4 o'clock position.

If you want to file down the "metering stalk" lug on an adapter, you have to remove quite a lot of material. You can see how the metering stalk works: if you take the lens off the body and look at the bottom of the mount, there is a pointy round pin that protrudes into the mount from the back. If you press this pin down slightly, the metering stalk comes up. You have to remove enough material so that the arm doesn't come up.

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Old 02-08-2008   #15
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I'll vouch for the 13mm limit quoted earlier. When I found my 28mm M-Hexanon lens quite by accident, I didn't an M-5 with me. The rear element protruted farther that I had seen on any other lens. I returned the next day with a camera & the 28mm lens went on and worked fine. When I got home I measured the 28mm lens. It stuck out less than 12mm.

The Dual Range Summicron goggles also work on an M5 with the removal of a screw on the goggles.
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Old 02-11-2008   #16
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List updated and thanks for the remarks.
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Old 02-11-2008   #17
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As someone said, the Russian Orion-15 28mm f:6.0 works fine on the M5 or CL.
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Old 02-11-2008   #18
Charles Woodhouse
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Hi Philipp, yes I did know which lug you filed to stop the metering arm on the M5. I was just a bit slapdash in my response. I measured the amount to be removed and it was 7 or 8 millimetres. One correspondent said quite correctly that I could use the "eyes" on the M5 but with my simple modification I can use the lens complete on an M3 or without eyes on an M5, etc.
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