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Tom Abrahamsson of RapidWinder.com It is almost never that an inventor improves on a Leica product so that it is better than the original Leica product. Tom holds that distinction with his RapidWinder for Leica M rangefinders -- a bottom mounting baseplate trigger advance. In addition Tom manufacturers other Leica accessories such as his very popular Soft Release and MiniSoftRelease shutter releases. Tom is well known as one of the true Leica rangefinder experts, even by Leica. IMPORTANT READ THIS: CWE Forum hosts have moderation powers within their forum. Please observe copyright laws by not copying and posting their material elsewhere without permission.

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Old 05-13-2009   #41
Freakscene
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>anyone in Australia able to give some advice on where to get the needed chemicals to make >Beutler?

All available from Vanbar. I get mine from Ace chemicals here in Adelaide: http://www.acechem.com.au/

Marty
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Old 05-13-2009   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
All available from Vanbar. I get mine from Ace chemicals here in Adelaide: http://www.acechem.com.au/
Thanks, Robert and Marty...

I suppose I should have been a bit more specific and asked about supply in Sydney...

Vanbar does have lots of chemicals listed on their web-site, but unfortunately the Sydney store does not keep a stock of chemicals and you have to have the chemicals shipped from the Melbourne warehouse. I will definitely pay the Sydney store a visit in the next few days and see if the situation has changed.

And I need to let my fingers do some walking through the Yellow Pages for chemical suppliers here in Sydney.

Just a quick note about the Sodium Carbonate... as that same as the household washing soda you can buy at the grocers?

Thanks,
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Old 05-13-2009   #43
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The original fomula went from Na2CO3 sicc. (water free) € 15,00/kg (1000g)

If you're using household soda it's 10 . H2O . Na2CO3
Sodiumcarbonate is worldwide produced by Solvay. So I do not think the quality is much different then here in Holland. You can get it for € 0,90 for 1kg (1000g) in the supermarket.

Household solda is more massive so not so easy to weight on a balance. The crystals are saturated with water.
But it's much cheaper.

For recalculating use above mentioned calculation for 100ml B solution:
1 mol Na2CO3 = 52g
1 mol Na2CO3 . 10 . H2O = 152g

152/52 x 5g = 14,6 g Soda

Success,

Robert
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Old 05-13-2009   #44
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Robert,

Thanks for that technical clarification. Big price difference between €15 and €.90 per kilo! I have looked at your samples, both here and on your Flickerstream. Very nice. Are you using household soda?

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Old 05-13-2009   #45
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Code:
Big price difference between €15 and €.90 per kilo!
Well instead of 5g Na2CO3 (Sicc.) you need 14,6 g Soda 10.H2O.Na2CO3 but still the price difference is huge especially when you're selling the Beutler in the Fotohuis program
http://shop.fotohuisrovo.nl/product_...roducts_id=316

Yes, I am using household soda instead of Na2CO3 Sicc.

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Old 05-14-2009   #46
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Robert, the household soda could probably be "heated" sufficiently to remove some of the water. Put in a baking pan and stick in the oven. The problem is of course that you dont know exactly how much H20 is being removed! It is hygroscopic and will attract moisture quickly though ( and turn into a solid mass).
The trick is to try it out and once you have established the "mixture" - stay consistent and dont change it.
Well, I have to mix some up today - as the weather is improving and I have some Acros to run and also some Kodak XX @250. At least my darkroom is back in use after having a leak in the ceiling fixed, though it still needs to be "dusted" off.
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Old 05-14-2009   #47
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Tom, the Sodiumcarbonate hydrate is going >107 degrees C in the sicc. form (without water).
It's indeed strong hygroscopic and therefore better to leave it in the household Soda form or order it in the right air tight packing as Na2CO3 sicc.

The purification of household Soda is pretty good so you don't need for this part P.A. quality (=Pro Analyse).

I just souped the next Efke 25 film in Beutler 1+1+10. This time for 7:00 minutes to be exactly on track.
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Old 05-14-2009   #48
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The house hold soda should work well - it is interesting that most photo chemicals are freely available in your local store. For Hydroxide you can use lye and/or drain cleaner and over here I buy my Borax at the corner store as "20 Mule-team Borax" - used as a detergent. Costs all of $3.99 for 5 lbs (2400 grams). R.A. grades get costly and in most cases are not necessary unless you do critical testing.
Somewhere I have a formula for "teaspoon" mixing Beutler - no scale needed. I used it for a while and it works - but a set of electronic scales works better for consistency.
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Old 05-14-2009   #49
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Quote:
set of electronic scales works better for consistency.
These small electronic scales dropped in prices the last 10 year. I just ordered one a few months ago and checked it to my old balance. It was 100%.

€ 40,00 I paid for it: 0-500g +/- 0,1 gram
A Swedisch produkt EKS.
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Old 05-14-2009   #50
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Some work from this afternoon.
Efke 25 in Beutler 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes.
You can count the stones, so sharp and in detail. Leica M7 + Summarit 2,5/75mm



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Sodium carbonate
Old 05-14-2009   #51
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Sodium carbonate

Quote:
Originally Posted by like2fiddle View Post
So now I'm curious about making some of this/these developer(s). I've used Arm & Hammer Washing soda as a source of Sodium Carbonate in my caffenol developer. Does anyone know if it can be used as the Sodium Carbonate for making up Beutler?
If you can find an art supply store, look and see if they carry procion dyes for fabric. If they do, they will most likely have bulk "soda ash" which they sell as a mordant. I buy it in five pound bags, and it is very inexpensive, probably less expensive than washing soda unless, of course, you can buy the washing soda in something other than retail packages.

"Soda ash" is nothing but anhydrous sodium carbonate. I use it in Beutler's as well as any other developer where sodium carbonate is specified. Works perfectly.

My source is Dakota Arts in Bellingham WA.
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Old 05-14-2009   #52
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When I began testing it for my own use, I got the formula from Aaron Sussman's Amateur Photographer's Handbook. Sussman admonishes us to use it at 65°F and NO WARMER. I don't know whether this comes from Willi Beutler's original publication or not. I have found that advice elswhere as well. However, other folks I know use it at 68F/20C, and they claim it works well.

Has anyone compared results at the two temperatures? Maybe the lower temperature produces tighter grain?
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Old 05-14-2009   #53
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I think that the original called for a "colder" developer simply because of the short times used for the old KB 14. Beutler recommended 5 min 15 sec for that film at 25 iso. With a warmer developer the times would have gone considerably below 5 min - which is usually not recommended.
I tried at the lower temperature and also with "normal" 20C and could not see any difference between the two.
With Pan F I used 5 min at 20C (1:1:8) and it worked fine - though adding a minute and doing it in 1:1:10 looked marginally better.
As with any developer/film you have to fine-tune the times/speed to fit your style of metering or guessing exposures. I find that it usually takes me a couple of rolls to get a negative that I like.
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Old 05-14-2009   #54
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Robert, Tom and Bowzart...

Thanks for your replies...

Looking at the samples of Efke 25 and Beutler, it almost appears like it pushes the 'mid-range' of tones up the scale compared to stand developing with Rodinal 1:100 where the shadow more open but not 'brighter'. Not sure that makes sense...

Welder | Lakes Entrance | Victoria, Australia 2008

Bessa R2 | Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 90mm f3.5 | Efke KB25 | Rodinal 1:100 Stand

Of course, it could depend on your metering and exposure methods as well.

I will attempt to get the supplies I need to mix up some Beutler this weekend.

Thanks,
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Old 05-14-2009   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom A View Post
I think that the original called for a "colder" developer simply because of the short times used for the old KB 14. Beutler recommended 5 min 15 sec for that film at 25 iso. With a warmer developer the times would have gone considerably below 5 min - which is usually not recommended.
I tried at the lower temperature and also with "normal" 20C and could not see any difference between the two.
With Pan F I used 5 min at 20C (1:1:8) and it worked fine - though adding a minute and doing it in 1:1:10 looked marginally better.
As with any developer/film you have to fine-tune the times/speed to fit your style of metering or guessing exposures. I find that it usually takes me a couple of rolls to get a negative that I like.
Great! thanks. Good information.

I have done very complete testing and have times worked out with a couple of films, but at the lower temperature. Since it is somewhat inconvenient to use 65°F, I'll go back and come up with better times. I'm not using Beutler's as much any more, (I've become enamored of Edwal 12) but I do use it to process my wife's zone plate images. There, we want very sharply defined and very assertive grain to give us a mezzotint like rendering of the soft image. Since the contrast is always suppressed with zp, I process her film (ilford delta 3200!) for at least 30 minutes in Beutler's, more if it's an overcast day. Does the job.

A friend of mine uses Beutler's exclusively, and has done so since learning it at the Art Center in Pasadena in the late 40's. He shot for magazines, and the images looked great. He shot a lot of tri x, which isn't the kind of film one would generally think of using in it. I printed for him for awhile and was amazed at the grain. It could be pretty rocky. However, when it showed up in print, it made much less difference than you might think. I'm sure it would have with a very fine screen, but that wasn't what they used.
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Old 05-16-2009   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotohuis View Post
I am using for solution B, household Soda (Sodiumcarbonate) € 0,90/1000g.
It's Na2CO3 . 10 H2O so for the recalculation:

1 mol Na2CO3 = 52g
1 mol Na2CO3 . 10 . H2O = 152g

152/52 x 5g = 14,6 g Soda (Household)
Robert, this made me thinking. I was always under the impression that household (or washing) soda from the drugstore here in Germany is the dry form.
Yesterday, beeing in a new drugstore, I checked the availability of chemicals for the darkroom and ran into washing soda again. It clearly states that it is "kalzinierte Soda", i.e. dried. They even give the calculation: use 100g of this product instead of 152g "Kristallsoda".
They also include a warning that this soda is hygroscopic.

So I think you took the wrong amount of soda...
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Old 05-16-2009   #57
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It's not impossible that you can get household soda sicc.
My household soda: Decahydrate soda on the packing which means 10.H2O build in. The crystals of the soda are also wet.
If you have sodiumcarbonate sicc. it's dry fine white crystals without moisture.

In that way you have to weight in 5g instead of 14,6g.
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Old 05-16-2009   #58
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OK, then I have Soda sicc (it's a fine dry powder and likes to cake up when it hits water) and you have the decahydrate.
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Old 05-19-2009   #59
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As I expected, I visited Vanbar-Sydney on Saturday and there was nothing on their shelves and they were out of Sodium Suliphite across the firm with no idea when they will be getting any in.

So I will start searching for chemical suppliers here in Sydney as soon as I get a spare minute or two.
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Old 05-21-2009   #60
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Hello Tom ... Not to change the subject...But what developer did you use for the recent photos taken on Acros using the new 50 F1.1 that you posted on Flicker ? As the tonal range was very smooth and contrast in the deeper tones very clear.

Also I expermenting with ADOX APH-09 is that similar to the developer your taking about. It is similar to RO9 All the best...Laurance
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Old 05-22-2009   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larmarv916 View Post
Hello Tom ... Not to change the subject...But what developer did you use for the recent photos taken on Acros using the new 50 F1.1 that you posted on Flicker ? As the tonal range was very smooth and contrast in the deeper tones very clear.

Also I expermenting with ADOX APH-09 is that similar to the developer your taking about. It is similar to RO9 All the best...Laurance
My standard developer for Acros is Beutler in 1:1:10 dilution for 7 minutes.
I havent tried the APH-09 so I wouldn;t know if it is the same, but I suspect that it is a Rodinal derivative.
I very rarely use "store" bought developers as I prefer making my own. Exception being HC 110/Rodinal as they are a bit messy to make.
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Old 05-22-2009   #62
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APH09 is Calbe R09.

Rodinal just changed by name to R09 one shot "made in Germany" due to the Trade mark Agfa and maybe the Rodinal license name by Lupus.
Also Foma changed (since halfway 2008) from R09 to Rodinal, called Fomadon R09 (new). Rounded corner bottles is the new type.
You can also see it on the color and the dilutions: 1+25 - 1+50 - 1+100.

Pre-WWII R09 (Calbe) is 1+20 - 1+40 - 1+80 in dulution. This R09 last about 1 1/2 - 2 years in the bottle while Rodinal last for at least 10 years.

Important is to know what you get.

Best regards,

Robert
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Old 05-22-2009   #63
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Thanks Tom & Fotohuis for the background info related to the difference between these products. Not to sound like a dork but if you could pass on the basic formula, Iam willing to give "Beutler" a try. I use the "massive Dev. chart"and do not remeber finding it listed. thanks again for the help.

Best Regards...Laurance
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Old 05-23-2009   #64
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In this treat usefull developing data is from Tom. In the "massive Dev. chart" you can find under Beutler some other usefull developing table.

The Beutler formula:

Solution A:
1g Metol
5g Sodiumsulfite (sicc.)
fill up till 100ml with demi water.

Solution B:
5g Sodiumcabonate sicc.
fill up till 100ml with demi water.

Instead of Sodiumcarbonate sicc. you can use 14,6g household soda (decahydrate) In this version 10.H20 crystal is build in. Sodiumcarbonate sicc. is a fine dry white powder while 10.H20. Na2CO3 are bigger crystals with moisture.

Dilution normally 1+1+8: e.g. 25+25 fill up till 250ml.

Making from scratch it's a very simple and cheap developer.
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Old 05-23-2009   #65
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Just posted some stuff on Flickr with Beutler. I did 10 rolls of XX and developed 5 in HC 110, dilution 1:60 (from raw syrup) for 11 min and 5 rolls with Beutler 1:1:8 for 11 min (that is my time for XX/XXX and Beutler). The Beutler gave me about 3/4 stop more speed - around 400 asa.
I will try later today with another 5 rolls of XX at the 1:1:10 dilution and see how that works.
Grain with faster films get quite aggressive in Beutler - easy to focus on in the enlarger though!
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Old 05-23-2009   #66
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Thanks for the Formula....I will try and whip up a batch and see how it works. I may come back and ask for suggestion about times based on film types. Thanks again for the help"Fotohuis" and Tom. All the Best...Laurance
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Old 05-25-2009   #67
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Did another batch of film, 3 Acros 100 in Beutler 1:1:10/7 min - looks good. Also 5 rolls of Double X (rated @ 250) - nice grey scale - maybe a 1/2 stop off here and there, but as it was shot as "sunny f16" the fault is mine - not the developer/film combo.
Check Flickr if interested.
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Shelf Life
Old 05-31-2009   #68
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Shelf Life

Hey Tom, Just wondering how long Beutler not mixed will last ie. part A and part B in separate bottles. Thanks Mark
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Old 06-01-2009   #69
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I expect pretty long because Metol + Sulfite (A) and a concentrated Sodiumcarbonate (B) solutions in demi water is harmless. I am running a test on this now.
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Old 12-15-2014   #70
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6 months in a (small) full bottle is not any problem for the Beutler life span. When half filled, it must be finished within 2-3 months.

I got a new, better and cheaper supply for the Sodiumcarbonate Decahydrate. The Action in Holland supplies Tricel, Deca Hydrate Soda (household) for 0,70 €ct / kg.



Indeed ..... 1001 possibilities ......
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Old 12-15-2014   #71
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Beutler's High Definition Developer #105

Solution A
Water (125F/52C) 750 ml
Metol 10 gm
Sodium Sulphite, anhydrous 50 gm
Cold water to make 1.0 liter

Solution B
Water (125F/52C) 750 ml
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 50 gm
Cold water to make 1.0 liter

Mix 1 part A, 1 part B, and 10 parts water.
Develop 7-10 minutes at 68F/20C.
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Old 12-21-2014   #72
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The cheapest source of sodium carbonate I've found is Aqua Chem's "Ph Up" for swimming pools. it's a 4 pound container and sells for around $5 at
Walmart in swimming pool season. Generally, any hardware store in an area with pools will have it.
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Old 12-22-2014   #73
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I just developed two strip test of T-Max 100 and Neopan Acros 100. Both films were shot as nominal 100 ISO, in grey-tone nature (avoid to be mistaken with exposure). T-Max 100 was developed in 1+1+8 dilution, 8:30 min. Acros 100 was developed in 1+1+10, 7 min. Both tests have well-detailed tones and fine detail, but look very grey as 2-stops underexposed. (Of course, they can be lifted to fine condition by curve or levels.) Exp +1 or +2 make negatives more dense (and more bright positive scan), but the negatives have the same very grey look as +2-stop under-exposed. Therefore, I conclude that the grey look of the negatives originate not from underexposure.

I therefore would ask Tom and Peter, the experts in Beutler, for a courtesy. Upload raw scans of your T-Max and Acros negatives, without post-development. I mean that everything of photographs at Flickr Beuter A+B Group looks fine. But it is unclear whether they are close to originally raw scans or were substantially lifted in Photoshop. I sure other people would be as well curios to see originally raw scans of negatives developed in Beutler. Do it for all us, please.
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Old 12-22-2014   #74
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Take care when making the Beutler. To prevent an early oxidation when making it just dissolve a little bit Sodiumsulfite first and then the Metol completely. Then the additional Sodiumsulfite. Otherwise you maybe end with a partial exhausted developer, just before starting development.

Beutler is working as a normal, a little bit low contrast type developer hence the good results of the Rollei Superpan 200/Rollei Retro 400S (same emulsion, Agfa Gevaert Aviphot 200 E1, made in Belgium, aviation type film 100um hence E1) a more contrastly type of B&W film.

Further the combo Efke 25/Rollei Pan 25/Adox CHS 25 is very good. Fortunately I still have some stock of this nice single layer orthopan iso 25 film. With Acros 100 E.I. 80 my combo with R09/Rodinal 1+50 is better.

For really contrastly type films you can exchange the Sodiumcarbonate (Soda) by Sodiumbicarbonate (Baking Soda). In fact you are making then TDLC-103 a low contrast type developer. However the Baking Soda is less stable so the lifespan of this receipt is very limited. I did some Rollei ATP1.1 films with it. Apart from the low iso (6-12) reasonable results with this Agfa Gevaert micro film type.
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Old 12-22-2014   #75
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Straight scan - Acros 100 and Beutler1:1:10, 7.30 min. Slight contrast drop (about 10%). It would have worked fine at 7 min too.
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Old 12-22-2014   #76
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Straight scan - Acros 100 and Beutler1:1:10, 7.30 min. Slight contrast drop (about 10%). It would have worked fine at 7 min too.
Thank you very much. It very, very differs from that I got on Acros 100. I just got a reply from Robert. He guessed that I have exhausted developer due to some errors in its preparation (so that the developer can exhaust even if just cooked). I will investigate this problem more. Thank you for your time.
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Old 12-22-2014   #77
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Tmax 100 (at 100 iso), Beutler 1:1:10. 6.5 min. The Tmax 100 is (was) a bit fiddly and it is very sensitive to agitation - less is more than enough. I also do prewash for one minute.
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Old 12-22-2014   #78
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Originally Posted by Tom A View Post


Tmax 100 (at 100 iso), Beutler 1:1:10. 6.5 min. The Tmax 100 is (was) a bit fiddly and it is very sensitive to agitation - less is more than enough. I also do prewash for one minute.
Thank you, again. So-o-o different from my grey result. I will study more this subject.
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Old 12-22-2014   #79
Fotohuis
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Acros 100 in R09/Rodinal.

Somewhere I must have about the same type of scenes and film developed in Beutler 1+1+10.
I think I have to re-scan something.
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Old 12-22-2014   #80
Tri House
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotohuis View Post




Acros 100 in R09/Rodinal.

Somewhere I must have about the same type of scenes and film developed in Beutler 1+1+10.
I think I have to re-scan something.
If these are originally raw scans, they are almost excellently balanced for post-development. No need to look at histogram, to say this. Thank you for the provided examples.
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