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Sigma DSLR ... show us your images.
Old 02-18-2014   #1
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Sigma DSLR ... show us your images.

Foveon and non foveon. There won't be a lot of pics in this thread obviously because they aren't exactly thick on the ground but I'm sure I'm not the only person at RFF with a Sigma DSLR.

SD1M ... Sigma 50mm f1.4 ... ISO 400


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Old 02-18-2014   #2
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Here are some recent shots from the SD1M. Some of these I may have posted to other threads already.. Mainly taken with either the 17-70 or 18-200 Zoom lenses if I remember correctly.



















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Old 02-18-2014   #3
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love the lighthouse photo, gary. scrumptious ...
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Old 02-18-2014   #4
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Thanks Paul and Jarski

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Old 02-21-2014   #5
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Old 02-21-2014   #6
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The Foveon sensor!

Is anybody using the Sigma 8-16 with it?
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Old 02-23-2014   #7
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A rare (for me) foray into colour.

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Old 02-23-2014   #8
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I think he had some passing thoughts about taking a bite out of that bloke w/ the camera he does not look to happy about being disturbed.

Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #9
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Keith - great lizard shot!
Gary - terrific light house!
jarski - the snake looks all too real!
I can't get enough of these Foveon images. Keep them coming.
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Old 02-23-2014   #10
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Some shots after the rain - SD1M with 70f2.8 Macro





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Inquiry about Merrill....
Old 02-23-2014   #11
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Inquiry about Merrill....

I was very interested in the Foveon sensor and the SD15 camera, but the wait for the SD15 wore me out, and I made another move.

Then I started seeing information on the Merrill name (for the late designer of the foveon sensor as I understand it).

Sparked my interest again in Sigma. I used to shoot the Sigma film SLR's years ago.

I need to catch up on the foveon/Sigma Merrill inforation. Particularly interested in seeing where the SD15 which is available all over eBay transitioned to the SD1M.

Can anyone point me to a forum, blog or review site so I can play catchup on the Foveon Sigma Merrill evolution.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 02-23-2014   #12
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Oh man, I had my toughts all set on a Fuji X-T1 but when I see those Sigma photo's and colours... I really want knobs for speed and iso and diaphragm. But on the other hand those photo's. Might compromise and get a dp1m. But a sd1m with the 18-35 is soooo tempting.
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Old 02-23-2014   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric T View Post
Keith - great lizard shot!
Gary - terrific light house!
jarski - the snake looks all too real!
I can't get enough of these Foveon images. Keep them coming.
Thanks Eric
Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuzano View Post
I was very interested in the Foveon sensor and the SD15 camera, but the wait for the SD15 wore me out, and I made another move.

Then I started seeing information on the Merrill name (for the late designer of the foveon sensor as I understand it).

Sparked my interest again in Sigma. I used to shoot the Sigma film SLR's years ago.

I need to catch up on the foveon/Sigma Merrill inforation. Particularly interested in seeing where the SD15 which is available all over eBay transitioned to the SD1M.

Can anyone point me to a forum, blog or review site so I can play catchup on the Foveon Sigma Merrill evolution.

Thanks in advance.
Ok this is going to come in multiple post.

In general, the Merrill is a continuation of the sensor on the sd15. As opposed to the new Quattro.. RGB channels use the same 1-1-1 stacking over each photo cell site. Instead of 4.9 million photo cell sites there are now 15 million.

The color is very slightly different and the older sensor had a more silky look to it.

New Merrill sensor is a true apsc (1.5 lens factor) and has improved digital circuits.

Will post more later
Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #15
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The foveon sensor has no color array like the Bayer or xtran and does not have anti-aliasing. Instead it does have photo sites that are designed to filter out red green blue (RGB) in the reverse order, w/ blue on top. W/o Bayer or xtran filters to worry about, there is no algorithm like guessing of the true color of any particular photo cell or if that cell represents an edge color or not.

In a perfect world, all the light intensity for a particular color is passed correctly down to the next level of the stack.. This is where foveon has problems and why high iso is not good.
- color
-- good to 400 - ok to 800 (ymmv)
- b&w
-- good to 800 - ok to 1600
-- color wheel tricks - I find ok up to 4000 (ymmv)

U need a sensor in the 32-36mp range to equal the overal iq of the Merrill sensor or beat it. I have seen examples where it goes either way. There was one recent example of a shot from a sd1m vs Sony a7r that was pretty interesting. It was sent to me by a fellow rff member. This was a still life fruit bowl shot.
- imperfections in the banana showed up clearly in the sd1m shot but not in the a7r one.
-- I believe this is due to the Bayer algo looking at adjacent cells and averaging things out..
- the fine hairs from the vine stem of the tomato on the other hand had more detail then the one from the sd1m.
In general tonal quality is better w/ the foveon sensor. The monochrome from the Merrill gives the Leica monochrom a run for its money.

Both the dp and sd Merrill family uses the same sensor. The main diff resides in the digital circuits which have been improved and the sensor specifically designed lenses for the dp family.

Next set of post will have some interesting links.

Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #16
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Forgot to mention..

I always post 1024x1024 max Jpg. The details that u c in the tiff16 files are amazing.. Sigma jpg engine is really bad. I do raw+jpg. The jpgs are used for sorting. Once I know what raws to select, it is batched processed in Sigma Photo Processor (spp) and imported into Aperture.

Raw+jpg average about 55mb each pair and tiff16 is 88mb. Write to flash is slow but there is a 7 (raw+jpg) cache buffer, so u can keep on shooting until it is full.

Sd1m af speed is about d200-300 generation.

Gary
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Last edited by GaryLH : 02-23-2014 at 14:35. Reason: Spelling
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Some interesting links
Old 02-23-2014   #17
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Some interesting links

Ok here are some interesting links to explore

D800 vs sd1m
http://madshutter.blogspot.com/2013/...errill-vs.html

RFF tips for foveon
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=134149

High iso b&w
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=133467

Good video about using spp in monochrom
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=133623

Possible solution for magenta cast to explore
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=134065

How to create smoother looking skin on portraits
http://x3magazine.com/2013/03/09/smoother-portraits/

Some sigma propaganda resource links

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/product/sd...FWZk7AodTAYA5g

http://www.sigma-dp.com/

http://x3magazine.com/

http://blog.sigmaphoto.com/

The new sensor announced at cp+ just last week - Quattro. So far only on the dp family.
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/article/sigma-dp-quattro
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Old 02-23-2014   #18
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This is not the camera to use if u need fast af or high iso color. Think shooting Kodachrome or tri-x.

Gary
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Thank You!
Old 02-23-2014   #19
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Thank You!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
This is not the camera to use if u need fast af or high iso color. Think shooting Kodachrome or tri-x.

Gary
First, I have not been put off by reasonable AF speed. Not necessarily fast. I am a large format shooter and FAST is not part of the vocabulary.

Second, I don't do high ISO. Frankly, I believe the camera industry has spend far too much R&D money on the megapixel race, AND for the few people who shoot in the dark.

Thank you so much for all the information and the great number of links. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. I had not thought that Sigma would continue so much on a better Foveon. Looks like they put a lot of energy and money into this solution for their sensor.

Am I correct in assuming Sigma is strictly Foveon on the DSLR and Mirrorless front. Do they use any Bayer sensors at all.

One of my serious interests is the technology that avoids the Anti Aliasing history on Bayer Sensors.

I am thinking about picking up an SD15 used, and then start saving for the SD1M, or whatever it reaches by then. After reviewing all the information you provided.

I also note that you mention an AF speed in the D200/300 range. I have been quite happy with the AF speed of my Fujifilm S5 Pro, which is a Nikon D200 body.

I've been using Olympus PENS and the new 16mp sensor, no AA filter in the E-PL5

Do you think the SD15 will be a good preperatory move before the latest Foveon DSLR?
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Old 02-23-2014   #20
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I am not aware of a Bayer based sensor by Sigma. Currently there is only the sd and dp families.

I never owned a sd14 or 15 so I can't help there.

The af speed is purely memory. I haven't used either camera systems in ages since they were on loan from a friend of mind. But what I was mainly trying to say is that if u are expecting latest dslr af performance, u are going to get it. It is one to two generations behind.

There are a couple of rff'ers that picked up the sd14/15 recently, they maybe able to give u some more insight as well. To me the main difference between the older vs newer Merrill sensor is
- Merrill
-- has more detail (due to triple the photo sites)
-- slightly different color balance
-- monochrome has more tonal range
- Pre-Merrill
-- silky smooth look that is not found in the Merrill series
-- one stop less iso is what I have heard from others

Merrill used prices for the dp series is not bad, the sd is still up there though. The blogger who did the d800 vs sd1m has a lot of good info on the Merrill series in terms of what he has discovered between using the dp and sd family vs his normal Bayer cameras.

Good luck
Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #21
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Forgot to mention

Your epl5 may have better iq then a sd15. It is still really a sensor w/ only 4.9 million photo sites vs 16 million of the epl5. I would say as a rough estimate the sd15 maybe equivelent to somewhere between a 12-14mp Bayer sensor in overall iq, but the tonal quality and color accuracy should be better.

I went the other way.. I bought a dp2m first followed by the dp1m. I bought the sd1m because I wanted more lens choice. I still have both my dp Merrill cameras even though I have the sd1m. I use the dp2m the most because I like to walk around w/ a lighter setup.

I would get wait a bit.. When the dp2 Quattro ships sometime around summer, used Merrill prices could come down if the Quattro is a success. Sd14/15 prices are probably close to bottom but the really good lenses are the ones that Sigma has released in the last two-three years, especially their "art" series.

There is only one camera that I ever liked that had better overall iq then a sigma Merrill --> Leica monochrom, but I am not willing to pay the price for it. The Quattro in monochrom mode, has potential to be even better.

Gary
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Old 02-23-2014   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
Oh man, I had my toughts all set on a Fuji X-T1 but when I see those Sigma photo's and colours... I really want knobs for speed and iso and diaphragm. But on the other hand those photo's. Might compromise and get a dp1m. But a sd1m with the 18-35 is soooo tempting.
Get both?

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #23
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Quote:
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Get both?

Gary
You people are dangerous
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Old 02-24-2014   #24
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Not to slam the SD1M but a couple of things really stand out about the camera for me:

The AF is very ordinary ... probably behind the D70s Nikon I had about five years ago and the D70 was released in 2004.

The auto white balance is pretty bloody average!

It's not the camera to own if you're expecting the usual DSLR competency as Gary mentioned ... take a burst of shots and you can knit a sweater while the camera writes the files to the CF card!

Need I go on ... not really because it's all about the foveon sensor for me and a body surrounding it that allows manual focus, a range of focal lengths, apertures below the lethargic f2.8 of the DPMs and more sensible shutter speed options for wide open shooting in daylight.
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Old 02-24-2014   #25
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I'm going to try one out, primarily in order to get a wider perspective on the Merrill sensor.

The 8-16mm and the SD1M body (with an uninspiring 17-50 thrown in) arrive this week, just in time for a vacation trip to Lisbon.

For my purposes (landscape and skyscape), the sluggish handling of the body could be an issue, especially given the lack of live view.
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Old 02-24-2014   #26
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Quote:
Not to slam the SD1M but a couple of things really stand out about the camera for me:

The AF is very ordinary ... probably behind the D70s Nikon I had about five years ago and the D70 was released in 2004.

The auto white balance is pretty bloody average!

It's not the camera to own if you're expecting the usual DSLR competency as Gary mentioned ... take a burst of shots and you can knit a sweater while the camera writes the files to the CF card!

Need I go on ... not really because it's all about the foveon sensor for me and a body surrounding it that allows manual focus, a range of focal lengths, apertures below the lethargic f2.8 of the DPMs and more sensible shutter speed options for wide open shooting in daylight.
should have got the m9! smiley face....
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Old 02-24-2014   #27
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Thanks very much to the mod who has made this thread a sticky!


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Old 02-24-2014   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noimmunity View Post
I'm going to try one out, primarily in order to get a wider perspective on the Merrill sensor.

The 8-16mm and the SD1M body (with an uninspiring 17-50 thrown in) arrive this week, just in time for a vacation trip to Lisbon.

For my purposes (landscape and skyscape), the sluggish handling of the body could be an issue, especially given the lack of live view.
About the same as the dp family in terms of cf write and af speed. If the af point is close to previous, it is a bit faster since it is phase detect.

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #29
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Quote:
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Thanks very much to the mod who has made this thread a sticky!


Nice..

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #30
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Nice..

Gary

I think this is the first Merrill colour pic that has made me glad I do shoot colour now and then!
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Old 02-24-2014   #31
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Originally Posted by noimmunity View Post
You people are dangerous
I should talk... I am bypassing the xt1, waiting on xp2, unless gas gets the better of me. Looking forward to the dp2 Quattro though. For how I use the Fuji gear, already good enough for me.. So I can play el cheapo now and buy on the backside sales...wait for the sensor breakthrough.

From what I have read so far, yes, the Quattro breaks the traditional 1-1-1 RGB foveon design. I really think that Quattro used in monochrom is going to equal if not beat the overall iq of the Leica Monochrom... Not just because of the new sensor, but the third gen digital processor and going from 12 bit to 14 bit raw.. Until reviewers get beta sample cameras in their hands it is just speculation on my part, but given the patent for this is 2005-2007 vintage, they have had this developing in the back burner for a while. I suspect the technology required may have only recently come together..

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #32
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Quote:
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I should talk... I am bypassing the xt1, waiting on xp2, unless gas gets the better of me. Looking forward to the dp2 Quattro though. For how I use the Fuji gear, already good enough for me.. So I can play el cheapo now and buy on the backside sales...wait for the sensor breakthrough.

From what I have read so far, yes, the Quattro breaks the traditional 1-1-1 RGB foveon design. I really think that Quattro used in monochrom is going to equal if not beat the overall iq of the Leica Monochrom... Not just because of the new sensor, but the third gen digital processor and going from 12 bit to 14 bit raw.. Until reviewers get beta sample cameras in their hands it is just speculation on my part, but given the patent for this is 2005-2007 vintage, they have had this developing in the back burner for a while. I suspect the technology required may have only recently come together..

Gary
I'm still reserving judgement on what the Quattro sensor really means, Gary, especially for color. More resolution is unnecessary for me at the moment.

Although I have an SD1M and two lenses for it coming this week, I think I've already pretty much decided that it just doesn't make sense given my creative tasks and limited budget. It's a lot of money to pay just to have super wide perspective on a Merrill sensor, especially given the fact that the size factor basically rules it out as a camera I would actually carry to the places where it would mean the most for me (i.e., way out in the backcountry). I think I'd do much better to fill out my XF lens spread (I'm thinking 12-23-56, 55-200), and bide my time waiting for the XP2 to come out, go down in price, and make my move.
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Old 02-24-2014   #33
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I actually don't use super wides very often anymore, though I have the 10-20 zoom for it. I wanted faster lenses (f1.4) and longer lenses then 50 (dp3m).. When I used a camera w/ a foveon sensor.

Gary
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Again ... Thank You...
Old 02-24-2014   #34
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Again ... Thank You...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
Forgot to mention

Your epl5 may have better iq then a sd15. It is still really a sensor w/ only 4.9 million photo sites vs 16 million of the epl5. I would say as a rough estimate the sd15 maybe equivelent to somewhere between a 12-14mp Bayer sensor in overall iq, but the tonal quality and color accuracy should be better.

I went the other way.. I bought a dp2m first followed by the dp1m. I bought the sd1m because I wanted more lens choice. I still have both my dp Merrill cameras even though I have the sd1m. I use the dp2m the most because I like to walk around w/ a lighter setup.

I would get wait a bit.. When the dp2 Quattro ships sometime around summer, used Merrill prices could come down if the Quattro is a success. Sd14/15 prices are probably close to bottom but the really good lenses are the ones that Sigma has released in the last two-three years, especially their "art" series.

There is only one camera that I ever liked that had better overall iq then a sigma Merrill --> Leica monochrom, but I am not willing to pay the price for it. The Quattro in monochrom mode, has potential to be even better.

Gary
I certainly appreciate the time you took to respond and bring me up to date on the Merrill advancements
.

Perhaps I will shoot the Oly and see what happens on the Quattro, or prices dropping on the SD1.
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Old 02-24-2014   #35
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Quote:
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I actually don't use super wides very often anymore, though I have the 10-20 zoom for it. I wanted faster lenses (f1.4) and longer lenses then 50 (dp3m).. When I used a camera w/ a foveon sensor.

Gary
I'll agree with the fast lenses in the normal range. That 35 looks awesome, and the new 50 must very good, too. The long lenses are another story. Although there are a few that look spectacular, I have no interest in lugging them around. I get plenty of exercise as it is!

How is the SD1M for doing black&white at ISO3200 or 6400 with a 1.4 lens? (I know it's not your style Gary, so maybe somebody can tell me, or maybe Gary you've read somebody else's experience in that dept?)
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Old 02-24-2014   #36
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prices dropping on the SD1.
They already have in Europe. But there is certainly more room for reduction when a new model is announced.
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Old 02-24-2014   #37
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Given the zoom lens u ended up w/ that is already a steal.. The 17-50f2.8 sold separately is not cheap compared to the normal kit lens for that camera (18-200f3.5-6.3). I think if u don't like the 17-50, u should be able to resell it for a reasonable price.

The SD1m in US is selling new between 1600-1800 for body alone depending on where u look. To me Sigma in Europe is so much mo aggressive in their pricing...

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #38
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Sigma SD14 with Sigma 18-200mm


Valve Tower Talla Reservoir by Elmer Duck, on Flickr
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Old 02-24-2014   #39
GaryLH
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Originally Posted by noimmunity View Post
I'll agree with the fast lenses in the normal range. That 35 looks awesome, and the new 50 must very good, too. The long lenses are another story. Although there are a few that look spectacular, I have no interest in lugging them around. I get plenty of exercise as it is!

How is the SD1M for doing black&white at ISO3200 or 6400 with a 1.4 lens? (I know it's not your style Gary, so maybe somebody can tell me, or maybe Gary you've read somebody else's experience in that dept?)
For me, I don't need to shoot that high of an iso, since the 1.4 is already 2 stops better. Same Merrill sensor so monochrom high iso is about the same, the dp is slightly better mainly because they twited the digital circuit a bit before they release it.

The only time I need high iso is
- under thick canopy of forest
- indoor available light

Keith on the otherhand, shoots a lot of low light stuff.

Gary
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Old 02-24-2014   #40
GaryLH
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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Sigma SD14 with Sigma 18-200mm


Valve Tower Talla Reservoir by Elmer Duck, on Flickr
Nice
Gary
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