Old 11-20-2019   #41
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It is the truth that I do not feel I am ready to pick between any camera now. Maybe this is good for me.
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Old 11-20-2019   #42
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Such talk can result in costly GAS, Cal. An SL suggests getting an SL2. Having M lenses may suggest to also get L lenses.
Where will it end!
Raid,

So much obsessive thinking. LOL.

You should come to a NYC Meet-Up. Pretty much a support group for much of our behaviors.

We are so predictable. LOL.

But everyone respectfully is different.

One thought though is that the SL2 is "future proofed" in another way: autofocus when our eyes deteriorate with age.

In my case, I'm a CF. I don't own a car and I walk to work to save $2.75 each way on the Metrocard fare. I just saved $31.40 buying a knapsack of body lotion and olive oil using coupons at Bed Bath and Beyond. The folks in my building throw them away by the mailbox. Used 3 $10.00 off coupons and 20% off any single item. This is how I afford my camera addiction. Also know I spend lots on printing also.

Know that I still own my MM that I bought over 7 years ago. It is still a great camera, warts and all. Never got stale, and I still love it.

The CF factor also favors the SL. In a way it is kinda like a SUV because it offers flexibility to use legacy glass. I know not an M, but with its own versatility. Know that when I get a SL2 that I'll still keep my SL because it is still a great camera. It also makes me happy that the SL and SL2 both use the same battery as a Q2. It makes me unhappy that spare batteries cost $250.00. Ouch.

As a friend I would say you have to see if the EVF works for you. Some people here complain of headaches and get sea sick, but there are some advantages. With the SL I suggest try before you buy. Everybody is different.

I would say the APO fast primes is enough alone to cause "SL2 Disease."

This expression is a continuation and expansion of the expression "Linhof Disease" that the CDC has determined originated by Christian from the NYC Meet-Up. Joe from the NYC Meet-Up also has Linhof Disease.

Cal
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Old 11-20-2019   #43
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It is the truth that I do not feel I am ready to pick between any camera now. Maybe this is good for me.
I'm not blaming you for this.
You have Olympus MFT, Nikon FF DSLR and two digital M.
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Old 11-20-2019   #44
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If each camera costs $3000, which would you buy and use?
From your list I'd take the M9-P, but only if the sensor has been replaced by Leica. The M9 I owned produced far better color compared to any digital Leica I've owned since.

However, if you're into B&W, my M-P 240 (which can be had within ~10% in excess of your budget) produced better B&W (converted in PS via Nik) than my M9M.

Leica M9, 50mm Asph Summilux
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Old 11-20-2019   #45
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...you have to see if the EVF works for you. Some people here complain of headaches and get sea sick...

I've found that the trick to any finder equipped with focus control is to adjust it when your eyes are relaxed and focused at infnity. This is true for binoculars too.
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Old 11-20-2019   #46
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The M240 is an efficient “photo machine“,
Do you view it as an elegant camera?
I'm not sure how YOU would define "elegant," but I would say, no - I would not consider the M240 "elegant." The M-P 240 comes close, but still too "fat" to be considered elegant.

In fact I wouldn't consider an M9 elegant either.

Now the M10-P? That's elegant (slim as a film M, a little lighter, and ultra quiet)!
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Buy the Monochrom
Old 11-20-2019   #47
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Buy the Monochrom

Raid,

I would say the Monochrom. M9's and it's variants are common, and I think are not holding their value that well right now. Same for the SL, or for that mater the SL2 that Cal is in love with... Don't tell Cal but those mirrorless Leica's seem to be even worse and have a depreciation curve more like standard DSLR's. I purchased my Monochrom used 3-4 years ago and on the used market it's totally holding it's value. Plus it's a really great camera, just ask Cal.

Joe
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Old 11-20-2019   #48
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I know that Leica is aware of the quick depreciation of the SL even before the SL2 was announced.
Both cameras are similar to DSLR cameras.
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Old 11-20-2019   #49
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Ive used the M9P, 240, SL, M10, and Q, no other camera takes photos like the M9. I tried them all and compared them to each other to see what I like best and I own the M9P now.

Its the only camera I consider being a film camera thats digital. If you compare it to kodachrome photos its damn near the same, which makes sense because Kodak designed the sensor to look like it. Even the way the ISO acts is same as film.

The M9P with the 50 lux asph is just insane. Click on my instagram day link in the profile. A lot of photos are with that combo. Just look for the #leicam9p hash tag.

The only thing I don't like too much about the M9P (M9) is the black and whites. Just something about that sensor where is doesn't come out to my liking. The 240 is awesome for BW as is all the others.
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Old 11-20-2019   #50
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I have an M8 and an M9, and I have used an M240 for 8 months.
The M9 can produce beautiful images. I agree.
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Old 11-21-2019   #51
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Raid,

I would say the Monochrom. M9's and it's variants are common, and I think are not holding their value that well right now. Same for the SL, or for that mater the SL2 that Cal is in love with... Don't tell Cal but those mirrorless Leica's seem to be even worse and have a depreciation curve more like standard DSLR's. I purchased my Monochrom used 3-4 years ago and on the used market it's totally holding it's value. Plus it's a really great camera, just ask Cal.

Joe
Joe,

No denying that SL's and likely SL2's depreciate at an accelerated level.

For investment purchases I have other cameras that could be defined as a store of value as "hard assets."

I do think the MM already is a bit of a cult camera. It has a very strong and loyal fan base. Warts and all it has its destinctive rendering, and is likely the most basic digital camera as well as historically the first B&W only digital camera. I remember when the MM was first rumored, and a poster here on RFF said, "It is the dumbest idea ever." Then there was all the usual Leica haters. LOL.

The MM has "SMUT Factor." LOL. When Willie and others pointed out the higher resolution due to the lack of Bayer Filter Array things got interesting.

Then the Leica haters complained it was too expensive. Pretty obvious the Leica envy, and the sense of entitlement that came from people I actually knew who both happened to work at B&H. Both young people with a sense of entitlement that accused me of being a "rich dentist," and calling me a not serious photographer. Jerks.

The MM with a replaced sensor is a camera I think I could even speculate on, buying a second one, and just sit on it as if a 2 ounce ingot of .9999 gold (about $3K). Think about it: it is a novel CCD camera; the first B&W only digital camera; it is simple and basic and most like a film camera.

I can't think of another digital camera I might rate with my "Bankster" breeding that will hold value or even appreciate at this point.

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #52
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Raid, if you go for the MM I'll be envious :-)

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Old 11-21-2019   #53
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Some reality check with Cal. Tamarkin has m9m for 3K with new sensor and one year warranty.
Here is no digital cult cameras, just fans. Most of them are “I must have latest and greatest” kind.
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Old 11-21-2019   #54
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Ive used the M9P, 240, SL, M10, and Q, no other camera takes photos like the M9. I tried them all and compared them to each other to see what I like best and I own the M9P now.

Its the only camera I consider being a film camera thats digital. If you compare it to kodachrome photos its damn near the same, which makes sense because Kodak designed the sensor to look like it. Even the way the ISO acts is same as film.

The M9P with the 50 lux asph is just insane. Click on my instagram day link in the profile. A lot of photos are with that combo. Just look for the #leicam9p hash tag.

The only thing I don't like too much about the M9P (M9) is the black and whites. Just something about that sensor where is doesn't come out to my liking. The 240 is awesome for BW as is all the others.
M9 sensor reminds me e6 scans. I also like m240 bw, but m9m is the only camera with very sharp images, it seems.
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Old 11-21-2019   #55
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Some reality check with Cal. Tamarkin has m9m for 3K with new sensor and one year warranty.
Here is no digital cult cameras, just fans. Most of them are “I must have latest and greatest” kind.
Ko.Fe.

At one time the MM was the latest and greatest. LOL.

In reality it is rather primitive with no frills. The Leica haters speak the truth that it doesn't do video, does not have liveview, is slow, jams up if used in continuios, has a crappy low res screen, has not good high ISO performance...

But basically out of all digital cameras is there a more primitive camera out there that provides the experience of shooting a film camera? I think more and more fans will happen in the future due to this factor.

Also it is a badge of honor also to own, shoot and make great images with such camera. One is its no frills simplicity, but I would also argue that due to the CCD sensor compounded by being a monochrom camera that it requires even more precision than say shooting a CMOS sensored color digital camera. You really have to up your game, it requires higher skill to get the most, and is the most unforgiving digital camera that I know of.

May just be a group of loyal fans now, but why would someone want a seven year old camera if they want the "latest and greatest." What I'm saying is just the opposite.

It becomes a matter of time when a fan base becomes a cult following that I will concede.

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Old 11-21-2019   #56
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Raid,

For "Full-Disclosure" are you up to date on the Leica Rumors?

Suggested a M-EVF, 24 MP modeled after a M240.

M11 possible 2020.

M10X (47 MP???) X is for xtra resolution.

A 35mm Noctilux.

Of course new releases have impacts on used prices.

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #57
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Rais, how I know your shooting style the M cameras are ideal for you, in this case I would sell one of your Ms and go for one of the M10.

But I can understand sometimes it is nice to try somethong different nothiung wrong with this. Why do not ypou think out of the box and go for the CL ? For what I read it could be an excellent complement to your M8/9 .

And maybe your daughters would appreciate very much if you buy a special one, like this one.

A Paul Smith edition is so special...mucho fashion...we only live once

PS: not sure if our friend Cal would agree...
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Old 11-21-2019   #58
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Raid, if you go for the MM I'll be envious :-)

robert
Do you mean the original MM or a new MM that may/will be introduced, Robert?
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Old 11-21-2019   #59
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Rais, how I know your shooting style the M cameras are ideal for you, in this case I would sell one of your Ms and go for one of the M10.

But I can understand sometimes it is nice to try somethong different nothiung wrong with this. Why do not ypou think out of the box and go for the CL ? For what I read it could be an excellent complement to your M8/9 .

And maybe your daughters would appreciate very much if you buy a special one, like this one.

A Paul Smith edition is so special...mucho fashion...we only live once

PS: not sure if our friend Cal would agree...
WOW!
"At a price of $3,995, the Leica CL ‘Edition Paul Smith’ is only a slight premium over a stock Leica CLStarter Bundle, which includes the same 18mm lens. For $800 more, the special edition comes with the exclusive rope strap and lens cloth, and is limited to just 900 pieces worldwide."


Is it $1000 more costly to get the Paul Smith ed versus the regular CL?

I don't know, Robert, but I may rather get an M10. Or SL
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Old 11-21-2019   #60
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Rais, how I know your shooting style the M cameras are ideal for you, in this case I would sell one of your Ms and go for one of the M10.

But I can understand sometimes it is nice to try somethong different nothiung wrong with this. Why do not ypou think out of the box and go for the CL ? For what I read it could be an excellent complement to your M8/9 .

And maybe your daughters would appreciate very much if you buy a special one, like this one.

A Paul Smith edition is so special...mucho fashion...we only live once

PS: not sure if our friend Cal would agree...
Robert,

Kinda funny the conspiring going on. I own a MM (for clarity first version Monochrom), a SL and also a sneaky CL.

Pretty much no buyers remorse on any of these digital cameras.

BTW I think that 28/5.6 you own would love the CL. Pretty much a 42mm FOV with the crop factor and so small. I love-love the simple three button interface.

Generally I use spot metering and use the left knob which I have set up for exposure offset. Much quicker than manual exposure. The layout of the controls makes this a fast camera.

The bad of the CL is not so great a battery life, as the battery is small, but there is an easy workaround and that is turn off the camera and don't "cruise" around with the camera on and not use it. It is good to know that when you turn the camera on by the time you lift it too your eye it is good-to-go.

In this regard my SL is slow. It takes a while to spool up. Full-Disclosure.

My friend John came up with a term, "Digital Barnack," and it acurately describes a digital camera smaller than a M.

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #61
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Raid,

For "Full-Disclosure" are you up to date on the Leica Rumors?

Suggested a M-EVF, 24 MP modeled after a M240.

M11 possible 2020.

M10X (47 MP???) X is for xtra resolution.

A 35mm Noctilux.

Of course new releases have impacts on used prices.

Cal


There always many options, Cal.

Isn't it great!
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Old 11-21-2019   #62
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There always many options, Cal.

Isn't it great!
Raid,

Camera nerds in paradise. LOL.

What a lifestyle. Happy-happy.

Owning only one camera is so sad.

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #63
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Raid,

There is a Chinese expression: "Time is the best weapon."

My lazy slacker spin on this that is less aggressive, less hostile and more gentile is: "Time is your friend."

So here is my speculation and also a fact. So many leaked rumors are actually true. So not too far of a stretch is that a M-EVF likely could be produced.

So I wonder what would be the difference between a M-EVF and say a SL or SL2? Could it be a good camera for a person loaded with M-gear and M-glass that would never go for "L" glass. My spin is that it would be a cool camera for someone with mucho M-glass that has no intention of using R or L glass.

One of the big grips is basically the SL and SL2 are too big and heavy, and not a "M." So here we go.

I have outlined how the technology and developments have trickled down from the "S" to the SL and eventually to the M10. Clearly this is the pattern. I don't want to start rumors, and this is all speculation, and the only thing I can say for sure is that whatever Leica does there will be some people who will hate it. LOL.

So if you wait could the M-EVF be a good camera for your M-glass?

Also a big jump: will Leica be making AF lenses in M-mount?

How crazy am I? Does any of this make sense?

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #64
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Raid,

There is a Chinese expression: "Time is the best weapon."

My lazy slacker spin on this that is less aggressive, less hostile and more gentile is: "Time is your friend."

So here is my speculation and also a fact. So many leaked rumors are actually true. So not too far of a stretch is that a M-EVF likely could be produced.

So I wonder what would be the difference between a M-EVF and say a SL or SL2? Could it be a good camera for a person loaded with M-gear and M-glass that would never go for "L" glass. My spin is that it would be a cool camera for someone with mucho M-glass that has no intention of using R or L glass.

One of the big grips is basically the SL and SL2 are too big and heavy, and not a "M." So here we go.

I have outlined how the technology and developments have trickled down from the "S" to the SL and eventually to the M10. Clearly this is the pattern. I don't want to start rumors, and this is all speculation, and the only thing I can say for sure is that whatever Leica does there will be some people who will hate it. LOL.

So if you wait could the M-EVF be a good camera for your M-glass?

Also a big jump: will Leica be making AF lenses in M-mount?

How crazy am I? Does any of this make sense?

Cal
POSTSCRIPT: All I guess what I'm trying to say is: What if Leica came out with a camera that was a cross between a digital M with an EVF so it was like combining a CL and say a M10. Perhaps another way to express this is basically a SL scaled into a M-body optimized for M-glass. I love this idea because the Leica haters would hate the camera because it lacks a rangefinder.
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Old 11-21-2019   #65
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You are making lots of sense, Cal.

Time is on my side too. I do not need any lenses or cameras to be added to what I already own and use. What do "the rumors" say about the expected cost of an M-EVF? Is it an M10 with EVF?

I have some lenses that are really nice and "mucho good", as you would say.

The CL seems to be a practical choice too.
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Old 11-21-2019   #66
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I have a lot of M glass..some screwmount and a tad of R too..
Still have not seen the Leica digital cam that will get me to pony up the big buckolas..
Maybe someday..
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Old 11-21-2019   #67
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You are making lots of sense, Cal.

Time is on my side too. I do not need any lenses or cameras to be added to what I already own and use. What do "the rumors" say about the expected cost of an M-EVF? Is it an M10 with EVF?

I have some lenses that are really nice and "mucho good", as you would say.

The CL seems to be a practical choice too.
Raid,

I don't want to create rumors. I do know there are rumors about a M-EVF, and these rumors eventually prove most often to be true.

The spin of a M10 with EVF is me just guessing and logically connecting the dots.

Just know I have a masters degree in journalism and basically have worked my whole career involved with research. It is natural for me to connect the dots and separate fact from fiction.

A lot of my thinking though is just speculation and educated guessing, but reading between the lines some very improbable stuff is emerging.

Please be very critical of anything I say. Some is fact other is fiction and a jump in imagination.

Remember: "Time is your friend."

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #68
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Truth be told, the CL is a great camera, but it has the limitation of a cropped sensor.

The SL and SL2 are also great cameras, but they are mucho big and heavy. Not so many willing to glass-up with APO lenses. Mucho expensive.

The Leica "Q" and Q2 are full frame, but fixed lens. Both also a great cameras. Some people would love a Q with a 35mm FOV or a 50mm FOV. AF is a bonus.

So what could a M-EVF be? Perhaps a merging of three current cameras. M-sized, M-mount, EVF and rear display of a SL2, full frame with the elegant controls of the M10/CL, and possible addition eventually overtime of AF M-lenses one day.

Not sure it would get IBIS or 47 MP, otherwise why buy a SL2 other than to optimize APO glass.

Cal
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Old 11-21-2019   #69
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I understand what you are saying, Cal. Time is on my side. This is not a rumor.
时间在我这边

I cheated! I used Google Translate.
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Old 11-21-2019   #70
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Truth be told, the CL is a great camera, but it has the limitation of a cropped sensor.

The SL and SL2 are also great cameras, but they are mucho big and heavy. Not so many willing to glass-up with APO lenses. Mucho expensive.

The Leica "Q" and Q2 are full frame, but fixed lens. Both also a great cameras. Some people would love a Q with a 35mm FOV or a 50mm FOV. AF is a bonus.

So what could a M-EVF be? Perhaps a merging of three current cameras. M-sized, M-mount, EVF and rear display of a SL2, full frame with the elegant controls of the M10/CL, and possible addition eventually overtime of AF M-lenses one day.

Not sure it would get IBIS or 47 MP, otherwise why buy a SL2 other than to optimize APO glass.

Cal
I have been thinking for some time about similar issues to whatever you said above. I am waiting for the right camera for my needs and wishes.


徕卡M10规则!
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Old 11-21-2019   #71
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The spin of a M10 with EVF is me just guessing and logically connecting the dots.
Cal, I don't understand why Leica does not generate frame line images via a display. You could turn on and off different frame lines so you would only see the appropriate one, and given that focus distance is known adjust the size of the frame lines so they are not over or undersized.

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Old 11-21-2019   #72
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Truth be told, the CL is a great camera, but it has the limitation of a cropped sensor.

The SL and SL2 are also great cameras, but they are mucho big and heavy. Not so many willing to glass-up with APO lenses. Mucho expensive.

The Leica "Q" and Q2 are full frame, but fixed lens. Both also a great cameras. Some people would love a Q with a 35mm FOV or a 50mm FOV. AF is a bonus.

So what could a M-EVF be? Perhaps a merging of three current cameras. M-sized, M-mount, EVF and rear display of a SL2, full frame with the elegant controls of the M10/CL, and possible addition eventually overtime of AF M-lenses one day.

Not sure it would get IBIS or 47 MP, otherwise why buy a SL2 other than to optimize APO glass.

Cal
I'd really like a L-mount camera with a sensor optimized for M mount lenses and adapter, and M form factor. This will allow the greatest crossover between M and L owners. Purist M users are less likely to go for a EVF M, they want a rangefinder. But those who are okay with mirrorless cameras would also be okay with L-mount compatibility.

Leica could unify all of them with a L-mount rangefinder style camera with EVF and M-optimized sensor, enabling complete lens sharing from M, SL and TL ranges. Leica have already done this with the SL, but a smaller M-styled version would be appealing to those who don't want SL size and weight. I'd certainly look at that.
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Old 11-22-2019   #73
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Cal, I don't understand why Leica does not generate frame line images via a display. You could turn on and off different frame lines so you would only see the appropriate one, and given that focus distance is known adjust the size of the frame lines so they are not over or undersized.

Joe
Joe,

This is a no brainer for a camera with an EVF. Kind of a crossover for those that like seeing outside the frame out of habit on a rangefinder. Kinda useful for composing and a very cool feature.

Don't they already do this with the Q and Q2? They could implement this in the firmware I believe and update my SL. I'll mention this to my friend John Kreider the Technical Specialist.

Kinda funny how this thread turned out to be an opportunity to bully Leica even though we are not haters. Its all Raid's fault. LOL.

Cal
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Old 11-22-2019   #74
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I'd really like a L-mount camera with a sensor optimized for M mount lenses and adapter, and M form factor. This will allow the greatest crossover between M and L owners. Purist M users are less likely to go for a EVF M, they want a rangefinder. But those who are okay with mirrorless cameras would also be okay with L-mount compatibility.

Leica could unify all of them with a L-mount rangefinder style camera with EVF and M-optimized sensor, enabling complete lens sharing from M, SL and TL ranges. Leica have already done this with the SL, but a smaller M-styled version would be appealing to those who don't want SL size and weight. I'd certainly look at that.
A,

This surely would appeal to the guys that are M-centric. I for one would love a smaller SL or SL2.

Nothing like a M, and if we got a crossover optimized for M-glass it could win some over.

Since we are bullying, why can't Leica build at least one compact AF lens for the L-mount. How about a pancake lens of say 40mm or 43mm to be right inbetween a 35mm and a 50mm. If 28mm would be smaller, lighter and more compact then I would love that.

It would be evil for street shooting and travel. I'd be cool if it was F2.8, just make it small and lightweight. Also keep it weatherproofed. Now I'm spoiled and can't live without the weatherproofing. To me this is a big deal and worth paying a premium to have an all weather camera.

Cal
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Old 11-22-2019   #75
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Joe,

This is a no brainer for a camera with an EVF. Kind of a crossover for those that like seeing outside the frame out of habit on a rangefinder. Kinda useful for composing and a very cool feature.

Don't they already do this with the Q and Q2? They could implement this in the firmware I believe and update my SL. I'll mention this to my friend John Kreider the Technical Specialist.

Kinda funny how this thread turned out to be an opportunity to bully Leica even though we are not haters. Its all Raid's fault. LOL.

Cal
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Old 11-22-2019   #76
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Someone should let Leica know of this thread.
No joke.
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Old 11-22-2019   #77
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Someone should let Leica know of this thread.
No joke.
Raid,

You are more connected than me. Send the E-mail.

I only know Shirley a Marketing Director USA, and John my Technical Specialist for the S and SL.

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Old 11-22-2019   #78
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I love Leica products!
Don’t blame me, Cal!
Raid,

You started the thread. LOL.

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Old 11-22-2019   #79
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Raid,

You are more connected than me. Send the E-mail.

I only know Shirley a Marketing Director USA, and John my Technical Specialist for the S and SL.

Cal
Your contacts are perfect, Cal.
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Old 11-22-2019   #80
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Your contacts are perfect, Cal.
Raid,

That was a clever "bait and switch."

I didn't see that one coming. LOL.

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