M2 button rewind
Old 06-23-2009   #1
ymc226
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M2 button rewind

What is the difference in function and value between a M2 with the usual lever and one with a button rewind?
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Old 06-23-2009   #2
Al Kaplan
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Value would depend more on condition than anything, and the button rewinds are a few years older. I have one and it works fine, and I also have an M2-R which was the tail end of M2 production. Other than having the M4 style loading I don't see any functional difference between the two M2's.
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Old 06-24-2009   #3
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I am not an expert but the button rewind is earlier and considered inferior because of the lack of self timer. The button rewind should be a little cheaper.

In leica world, it is the condition that dictates the value more than anything else.

For the camera bodies, a recent CLA, the scratches and dings, perfect shutter times etc... All will add or cut on the value end price
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Old 06-24-2009   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edodo View Post
I am not an expert but the button rewind is earlier and considered inferior because of the lack of self timer. The button rewind should be a little cheaper.
Then, too, some (like me) actually prefer the early M2 for exactly the same reason; the lack of a self-timer, and its necessary lever, makes for an unobtrusive grip with the right hand (and, interestingly enough, somewhat obviating the need for an auxiliary finger-grip).

I'm betting that most Leica Ms have self-timers whose geartrains have rarely been exercised.


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Old 06-24-2009   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edodo View Post
I am not an expert but the button rewind is earlier and considered inferior because of the lack of self timer. The button rewind should be a little cheaper.
Actually, some button rewind M2s do have a self timer:
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Old 06-25-2009   #6
tonys
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One of the differences is that Button M2's have a noticeably smoother film advance than their lever rewind self timer counterparts.

The Button M2's I am told by a famous repairer of Leica had similar type gearing to the DS M3 and most users will also say that DS M3's are smoother than their single stroke counterparts.
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Old 06-25-2009   #7
gilpen123
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Yup my previous M2 has button r and self timer.
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Old 06-25-2009   #8
David Hughes
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Hi,

Catalogue No: 10,800 or "KOOHE" was without the self timer and catalogue No: 10,308 or KOOHV" had the self timer. Price for those two bodies effective 26.8.60 was US $234 and $246

The "with" version was called the "Leica MS2 - the M2 with built in self-timer" on the old brochures for the M2 (List 11_37b / Engl). Later brochures have the model with the ST on it and no choice offered.

Hope this is some help. I've the without version with the button rewind, and haven't really missed the ST.

Regards, David
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Old 06-25-2009   #9
Melvin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amateriat View Post
Then, too, some (like me) actually prefer the early M2 for exactly the same reason; the lack of a self-timer, and its necessary lever, makes for an unobtrusive grip with the right hand (and, interestingly enough, somewhat obviating the need for an auxiliary finger-grip).

I'm betting that most Leica Ms have self-timers whose geartrains have rarely been exercised.


- Barrett

I second this. I chose my M2 because of its lack of self-timer.
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Old 06-25-2009   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edodo View Post
I am not an expert but the button rewind is earlier and considered inferior because of the lack of self timer. The button rewind should be a little cheaper.
The Self timer was an option on both the button and early lever rewind models. It only became standard equipment circa 1961. Like others here, when I bought my lever rewind M2 I specifically sought one without the timer (I'd never have used it and I think the camera looks better 'clean'). There's a view that models with serial numbers over 1,000,000 are generally slightly better built, but we're talking very fine distinctions here.

Functionally, the very earliest button models required the user to hold the button in manually while rewinding; later ones adopted a handier system where the button stays in of its own accord once pressed. Early versions also lacked the guard around the button, causing some users to accidentally depress the button while shooting (rotating the camera for portrait layout makes this more likely), resulting in double exposures.

Like other folks have said, condition and history are more important to value than version with M2s. And given the age of these cameras, the smoothness of the operation is more likely to be a result of when it was last serviced and by whom.
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Old 06-29-2009   #11
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I just got a M2 with a button rewind. When I press the button, it doesn't stay down but springs back. How can I tell if I need to keep it depressed manually throughout the whole time I rewind film or if I can press it in, let go, and rewind?
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Old 06-29-2009   #12
Al Kaplan
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If you can't rewind when you let go of the button then just keep it pressed down. I honestly don't know if it's supposed to stay down. Mine doesn't and never did, but I bought it second hand in 1972, shot hundreds, probably thousands, of rolls with it, and so far my button pushing finger hasn't worn out.

I usually cradle the camera in my left hand, lens between index and middle fingers, pushing the button with my middle finger.
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Old 06-29-2009   #13
Tom A
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If your M2 is a very early one #926xxx - 927xx and thereabouts - it is normal that the buttons has to be held down while you rewind. On later versions it supposedly should stay down - but with use, it could become worn and require holding it down. Later Leica switched to the lever which is an improvement as you dont have to assign a finger to it for rewinding.
You can have the button rewind replaced by a Leica tech, if you find it bothersome to keep it pressed down.
Personally, I stay away from the "Button down" M2's as I have had film torn when it has popped up and locked the function. Apart from that, your early M2 is just as good a camera as a later one - and if you rewind carefully - keep on using it.
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Old 06-29-2009   #14
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There are 2 different types (according to Mr.Ye) of the button release on the m2, one you have to hold it down the whole time while you rewind, the second type is that the button stays down once it is pushed...I bought the first one used for a cheap price and after two days decided to send it in for a CLA and I asked Youxin about converting the button to a lever rewind...he said it was easier and cheaper to just switch the chasis...so I switched the button reiwnd chasis to a lever rewind chasis and I am very happy with it....the thing that I didn't like about holding the button down was that I HAD to have a finger dedicated to holding that button down...but, to be honest I probably never would of sent the camera in to just do that, but because it was getting a CLA, I figured I would ask him...oh, and one more thing....my m2 is definetly a user, it has scratches on the top plate, a small ding on the back, and a bunch of wear around the edges and it's got some guys name engraved in it....so I wasn't concerned with keeping it "original"...I just wanted a cheap m2 that worked good....to be honest, I couldn't be happier....cheers.....michael
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Old 04-02-2012   #15
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I can say that my recently-CLA'd button-rewind M2 is the smoothest winding Leica M I've ever had, smoother still than my pretty-smooth SS M3 that was also CLA'd in the past few years. I didn't know they could get any smoother than the M3 until I used that M2. Noticeable difference.
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Old 04-02-2012   #16
Pete B
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I have 2 lever rewind M2s. One with self timer and one without. I find the self timer useful for long exposures (rather than carrying a cable release).
Pete
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Old 01-10-2018   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drec View Post
I can say that my recently-CLA'd button-rewind M2 is the smoothest winding Leica M I've ever had, smoother still than my pretty-smooth SS M3 that was also CLA'd in the past few years. I didn't know they could get any smoother than the M3 until I used that M2. Noticeable difference.
The key here is whether or not the M3 or M2 has the spring based wind return or the geared one. Double and single stroke M3's prior to 963xxx have the smoother winding spring return, as did the early M2's.
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Old 01-11-2018   #18
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There are no parts if a problem with button rewind.
Mine fell off. No parts anywhere except off another M2.
The shutter is NOT same as newer M2's.
It is slightly "shorter" !
Mine i can still use with black tape over the small hole.
Kinderman ca., TY for the screw.
My M2 is a smooth as my worn M3, now almost 51 years in service.
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Old 02-24-2018   #19
Erik van Straten
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This is my button rewind M2, the smoothest thing in the world.

Erik.

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Old 02-24-2018   #20
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My lever rewind M2 w/o ST was serviced by a famous London Leica dealer or repair shop, before I purchased it. I wish I knew what shop it was. The seal was not stamped. Any clues?
I cannot imagine a smoother wind-on, but I've never been invited to a blind test.
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Old 02-24-2018   #21
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Re the 2 types of rewind buttons - I remember being told that any S/N over 940 000 was the type you don't have to hold in when rewinding
I have one and love it. The button has a collar round it and if you accidentally depress the button - just pull up on the ring guard and it pops back up
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Old 02-24-2018   #22
Richard G
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I love my button rewind M2. I keep the button depressed and always keep the lever firmly under a finger in later Leicas. I actually like having a self-timer but the spareness of the button rewind M2 is so classical. And it makes it and my M9-P harder to tell apart at first glance, so it’s very contemporary. And then there’s the latest film Leica, an MA. I don’t have one as I’ve already got one.
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Old 02-24-2018   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
This is my button rewind M2, the smoothest thing in the world.

Erik.

Isnít that just the Mona Lisa of Leicas!
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Old 03-01-2018   #24
Erik van Straten
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Isn’t that just the Mona Lisa of Leicas!
It takes nice pictures too.

Erik.



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Old 03-01-2018   #25
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IMO the black paint button rewind M2 without self-timer is the best looking M ever. Simply beautiful.
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Old 04-12-2018   #26
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelwj View Post
IMO the black paint button rewind M2 without self-timer is the best looking M ever. Simply beautiful.
And makes nice pictures too.

Split grade print on ADOX MCC 110, shot with Leica M2 button rewind and Summicron 50mm f/2 rigid.

Erik.

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Old 11-05-2019   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
This is my button rewind M2, the smoothest thing in the world.

Erik.

Very cool camera. I wonder how often these BP button rewind M2s come up for sale?

Another question for you Erik, if I may: does having maintenance work done on a Leica, like repairing worn out light shields make it no longer original, and therefore nullify it's collector value?
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Old 11-05-2019   #28
Erik van Straten
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Originally Posted by WJJ3 View Post
Very cool camera. I wonder how often these BP button rewind M2s come up for sale?

Another question for you Erik, if I may: does having maintenance work done on a Leica, like repairing worn out light shields make it no longer original, and therefore nullify it's collector value?

I don't think so, these black camera's were professionally used.



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Old 11-05-2019   #29
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Quote:
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I don't think so, these black camera's were professionally used.



Erik.
Interesting. There is such a wide range of prices for collectible Leica stuff so I'm curious what kind of work to the camera impacts it's collector value...
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Old 11-06-2019   #30
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There's no real, guaranteed 100% answer. Collectors vary so much, cameras vary too and the net result could be anything.


FWIW, those black cameras with the brass worn and showing make me wonder what else is worn as much but not showing. This does not seem to be a popular view* but I'm no politician...


Regards, David




* Worse still, just lately I've noticed a lot of turkeys voting for Christmas.
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Old 11-06-2019   #31
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I once had two M2's at the same time - one with button rewind and one with the lever. I noticed that the interior "blacking" inside of the earlier button rewind body was significantly more reflective than the interior of the later lever rewind model.
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Old 11-06-2019   #32
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I remember that one objection to the button rewind was that during shooting, a finger strays onto the button and accidentally puts the camera into rewind mode.
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Old 11-06-2019   #33
Erik van Straten
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There's no real, guaranteed 100% answer. Collectors vary so much, cameras vary too and the net result could be anything.

FWIW, those black cameras with the brass worn and showing make me wonder what else is worn as much but not showing. This does not seem to be a popular view* but I'm no politician...

David

Hi Dave, here you are, after ten years of intensive use my camera was cleaned by Cathy Kuiper from Will van Manen Cameraservice. Now the camera works like new again.


The first cleaning/restauration, ten years ago, was done by Mr. Scherpenborg from Nijmegen who passed away recently.







Erik.
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Old 11-06-2019   #34
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I have a pre-950 000 button rewind M2 with ST and i can confirm that it is quite a bit smoother than my already smooth late serial number lever rewind M2 and even more so than my still satisfyingly smooth M4. It's almost sexually smooth.
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Old 11-06-2019   #35
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I have a pre-950 000 button rewind M2 with ST and i can confirm that it is quite a bit smoother than my already smooth late serial number lever rewind M2 and even more so than my still satisfyingly smooth M4. It's almost sexually smooth.
Interesting observations

I've had a 956xxx button rewind M1 for about a year now and it is very smooth (not sure which adjective to choose to describe it's smoothness), indeed smoother than my 992xxx M3. But I figured it was just because my M3 has seen more use...
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Old 11-07-2019   #36
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Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Hi Dave, here you are, after ten years of intensive use my camera was cleaned by Cathy Kuiper from Will van Manen Cameraservice. Now the camera works like new again.


The first cleaning/restauration, ten years ago, was done by Mr. Scherpenborg from Nijmegen who passed away recently.







Erik.

Thanks, I guess that shows that they can take it but also that they need regular servicing. And, of course, it also shows why the bills are so high...


Thanks again, David
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Old 11-07-2019   #37
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In fact only some cleaning was necessary. Some glue scraps had ended up in the film room. I tried to blow that out, but the stuff came through the edges along the top cover into the viewfinder and other parts. I didn't know this was possible. I thought the cassette space was better sealed. Let this be a warning for all users of the M-Leicas.

Without this accident, this maintenance would not have been necessary yet.


Erik.
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Old 11-07-2019   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten;2922293

[IMG
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49024512622_d01ca312f1_b.jpg[/IMG]
Erik.
That is either a very curvaceous Leica, or else it was photographed with a fisheye lens!
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Old 11-07-2019   #39
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In fact only some cleaning was necessary. Some glue scraps had ended up in the film chamber. I tried to blow that out, but the stuff came through the edges along the top cover into the viewfinder and other parts. I didn't know this was possible. I thought the cassette space was better sealed. Let this be a warning for all users of the M-Leicas.

Without this accident, this maintenance would not have been necessary yet.

Erik.
Hi,

I have often thought that lenses, especially the collapsible ones, act like pistons. So sucking and blowing and eventually the dust builds up. My main worry being grit as I have seen what it can do in other items I've repaired.

Regards, David
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Old 11-07-2019   #40
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
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That is either a very curvaceous Leica, or else it was photographed with a fisheye lens!
I guess she did it with her iPhone.

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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

I have often thought that lenses, especially the collapsible ones, act like pistons. So sucking and blowing and eventually the dust builds up. My main worry being grit as I have seen what it can do in other items I've repaired.
This is very well possible.

The collapsible lens derived from the idea that it should be possible to put a camera in a pocket. Actually I have never seen a person doing this.

Erik.
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