Does Leica take advantage of their M users?
Old 08-15-2019   #1
Huss
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Does Leica take advantage of their M users?

Leica just announced the all new 50 APO Summicron for the SL series (L mount)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._f_2_asph.html

This is the state of the art 50 Summicron for the SL, with AF and weather sealing.

Leica also has the 50 Apo Summicron for the M mount:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...l?sts=pi&pim=Y

This lens of course is not AF and does not have any weather sealing.

So why is the M mount lens $8000, while the all new weather sealed AF L mount Apo "only" $4500?
Does Leica view M mount users as suckers/rich hobbyists? While the L mount for the SL is seen as pro spec equipment, and professionals actually care about the cost of their gear?
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Old 08-15-2019   #2
bayernfan
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I've wondered the same myself. I can't think of a valid reason, other than perhaps the technical difficulty associated with producing a lens with that level of performance in a very compact size. But even that seems a bit far fetched.

It seems most logical to me that Leica is taking a "hit" on new SL lenses to attract users to the system.
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Old 08-15-2019   #3
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Charging what the market will bear. Plus the SL lenses are so huge any buyer would also need a bodybuilding course and plentiful supplies of steroids.
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Old 08-15-2019   #4
Erik van Straten
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I think that the SL-lenses are outsourced. The 50mm asph Summicron is certainly not.


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Old 08-15-2019   #5
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The resale market for used SL camera (and maybe lenses) has not been good. The prices do not stay level or increase, unlike what we see with M lenses.
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Old 08-15-2019   #6
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The SL exists in a market with healthy competition at the FF sensor size from just about all the main players in the game. Their rangefinders are the only ones digitally so they can mark up as they see fit to make money in a much more niche market. The unfortunate reality of this is that we pay more for the rangefinder gear.
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Old 08-15-2019   #7
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If I were seeking the best possible all around standard lens I'd just get the Canon RF50/1.2. You have to bear with the R body but it's not that bad in reality.

Any of these f/2 lenses, be it $4500 or $8000, I don't see much point getting them unless you're one of these "suckers/rich hobbyists"...
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Old 08-15-2019   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayernfan View Post
I've wondered the same myself. I can't think of a valid reason, other than perhaps the technical difficulty associated with producing a lens with that level of performance in a very compact size. But even that seems a bit far fetched.
... .
... well exactly THIS.

Why is it far fetched? Construction of a lens in MUCH bigger volume (SL) and a different lens to sensor distance is much easier than achieving cutting edge performance within the constraints of the M-mount.
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Old 08-15-2019   #9
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I seriously doubt Leica prices things based solely on the cost of manufacture. Surely they must factor in 'what the market will bear.'
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Old 08-15-2019   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
... well exactly THIS.

Why is it far fetched? Construction of a lens in MUCH bigger volume (SL) and a different lens to sensor distance is much easier than achieving cutting edge performance within the constraints of the M-mount.
L and M are both mirrorless and the L is actually closer to the sensor. Which is why Leica sells an M-L adapter.

And you actually think the SL series sells better than the M? From what I have seen people buy Leicas for the M and if they look at the SL they cross shop with other brands that offer far more for far less.
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Old 08-15-2019   #11
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Agree with Erik. Japanese-made "Leica" lenses will.....never.... sell for the same as Leica, made by Leica, just like if Carl Zeiss in Germany made the 35mm f1.4M Distagon.....the price wouldn't be $2,061 like it is at B&H.

Whatever the reason is, is of no consequence. It is, what it is. Speculate away.....won't change the price structure.
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Old 08-15-2019   #12
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They know...they can get it..lol..
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Old 08-15-2019   #13
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"The SL did not maintain the Leica set price levels" ....
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Old 08-15-2019   #14
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From today’s official press release:


All glass elements in an optical imaging system – for example lenses – refract light in certain colours to a different extent. This leads to the effect that not all rays of light from a multi-coloured subject are focused at a single imaging point – the result of this is chromatic aberration. In the new APO-Summicron-SL 50 mm f/2 ASPH. these chromatic aberrations are minimised by apochromatic correction. For this, the majority of the lens elements used in the construction of the lens are made from specially formulated, high-quality glass types with anomalous partial dispersion that push even the innovative manufacturing methods of the Leica Factory to the limits of the technically possible.

Hmmm, what Leica Factory are they talking about?
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Old 08-15-2019   #15
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I think another reason is that Leica feels that they will sell far more of the 50mm f2 SL lenses that their distant cousin the 50mm f2 APO M.

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Old 08-15-2019   #16
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'Does Leica take advantage of their M users...'



Well, of course... They're a commercial company. They'll charge what they think the market will tolerate/expect, and they'll charge in line with the market position of the product.


M is positioned as a luxury item (more than the SL) and M users have 65 years of history showing they will tolerate/expect an awful lot.
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Old 08-15-2019   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Hmmm, what Leica Factory are they talking about?
Hahaha, love it... pure snobbery calling it a Japanese lens. Japanese lenses are great too...
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Old 08-15-2019   #18
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Hahaha, love it... pure snobbery calling it a Japanese lens. Japanese lenses are great too...
"....that push even the innovative manufacturing methods of the Leica Factory to the limits of the technically possible"

So are Leica saying it is made in a Leica Factory, or they lacked the skills to make it and so had to have a Japanese mfg (Sigma?) make it for them?

What is the Leica Factory that they refer to?
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Old 08-15-2019   #19
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Maybe Leica is actually being nice. Perhaps they COULD have priced the M mount lenses at $16,000 or even $20,000, and priced the AF L bits and pieces at $9000 or even $15,000. It's their lenses, and they can price them any way they wish. You quickly understand that you're getting a bargain at the current prices.

Leica knows their customers all too well. How else could they get the prices that they charge? That very important knowledge of their customers points directly to the fact that the more they charge, the more people will think they're getting, giving bragging rights to the people that buy the more expensive gear.

Also, the more Leica charges, the more Leica makes. Sounds like they're actually protecting their customers. If Leica goes under by giving their gear away at the fire sale prices of only $9000 and $4500 (see Kodak for "going under" data), no one will have any of the new, hyper expensive stuff that they sell to dentists and others of that ilk.

It's all relative, and how you look at it.
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Old 08-16-2019   #20
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
What is the Leica Factory that they refer to?
Does it matter? Do you think it`s a conspiracy and that it is not made in their factory? or are you thinking it`s not the factory in Germany and that somehow matters?

I take what they say as ... this lens is so great, that it even taxed your beloved Leica factory to its limits so pay us now.

They refer to them as plants sometimes, factories other times...

http://en2.leica-camera.com/service/...plant_germany/
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Old 08-16-2019   #21
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The SL lenses, IIRC, produce data that requires considerable computational correction in-body to produce high quality images. Creating a (very) large lens with the desired optical corrections is a far easier task than correcting matters in the optical formula of the glass (for the most part) and packing it into the tiny, compact package that the M resides in. The price differential, to some extent reflects this.
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Old 08-16-2019   #22
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Yeah, but the created the 50mm APO M six years ago and the price keeps going up faster than inflation. They are just charging whatever the market will bear, and the M market will bear a lot. It hasn't cried uncle yet.
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Old 08-16-2019   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Yeah, but the created the 50mm APO M six years ago and the price keeps going up faster than inflation. They are just charging whatever the market will bear, and the M market will bear a lot. It hasn't cried uncle yet.
One is not obliged to buy it new. I bought mine as a factory second, meaning the barrel had a tiny cosmetic imperfection. Itís price was 27% off the full retail and included a full warranty. Iíve seen it for even less, second-hand (~$5-5.3k); by no measure cheap, but itís the pinnacle of M engineering. Patiently look hard enough and you will find what you can afford.
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Old 08-16-2019   #24
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They’re taking advantage of income inequality, not their M users. It used to be the case that they didn’t make a 50mm Summicron ASPH because “it would have been too expensive” (Mike Johnston said that on TOP). Now that the upper limit has been raised, they could finally go ahead with the idea of an exorbitantly priced 50mm f/2 lens. What could be more appealing to a rich guy than making what is usually the cheapest prime lens in a system one of the most expensive if it means they can have the “best lens ever”?
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Old 08-16-2019   #25
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Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
That very important knowledge of their customers points directly to the fact that the more they charge, the more people will think they're getting, giving bragging rights to the people that buy the more expensive gear.

(Film) Leica M is the only 'expensive gear' I've ever owned that will perform as well and be just as useful and just as coveted long after I'm dead. I'm confident in saying that, and also in saying that no digital gear, even Leica's, will fare as well. That is baked into the digital device industry's cake and the minds of modern consumers. The oft-mentioned 'price thing' is a red herring used by consumers unsure of the validity of their own desire or need for a given product. Exchanging currency, which is losing worth, for product X, which is also losing worth even while still on the shelf, is complicated.
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Old 08-16-2019   #26
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Ultimately the market decides. If Leica didn’t sell enough of the APO for M at the original list, the price would have dropped, with rebates or other incentives or an actual drop in the retail price, or a combination.

When a buyer voluntarily exchanges cash for an item, it means the buyer thinks the item is worth to them as much as, or more than, the cash.

Voluntary exchanges by definition indicate the buyer hasn’t been ‘advantaged.’
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Old 08-16-2019   #27
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What I love is the inane trolling with incendiary language ...
  • The M is a small, niche market camera. The L-mount lenses are addressing broad potential sales in the Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma market spaces.
  • M lenses like the APO Summicron 50 are hand-built in Wetzlar. The L-mount lenses are more automated production in larger volumes to meet the demand.
  • The M line camera and lenses sells to an upmarket audience that wants an M and nothing else. The L mount lenses are intended to be competitive in a broader, working photographer marketplace.

But mostly: ANY manufacturer that doesn't "take advantage" of the strengths and weaknesses of the market audience that their products are targeted at is just being foolish and throwing BOTH sales and profits away. The folks at Leica are not fools.

G
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Old 08-16-2019   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aizan View Post
Theyíre taking advantage of income inequality, not their M users.
Excellent point! The income of high-income people has gone up much faster than middle class, and Leica does not target middle class income people with their line of M products.
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Old 08-16-2019   #29
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Leica takes advantage more on SL. I'm terribly sorry, but this camera makes no sense if you are not total Leica sucker. My apologies.
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Old 08-16-2019   #30
Emile de Leon
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Leica M lenses..pretty much hold their value if you buy right and wait a few years..
Pretty much anyone who is a camera buff can afford a Leica lens..
I sold my Toyota to get my 1st M3 w/DR..
You find a way..if you really want it..

Today..dont drink...smoke..eat out..go to movies..or do any extraneous things that eat up funds..for awhile..
..and in a year or 2..you will be flush w/Leica..


I dont think they have taken advantage of me..I can get my $$ back on all Leica stuff I have purchased in the past 35 years..and in some cases much much more..
As in..I bought my Noct f1 for $1300-..
Guess what it goes for now..
But I dont buy as of now..an M digital body..as I dont see the value in that..
But the 240 M-E..may change my mind..
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Old 08-16-2019   #31
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Sorry, wifie and kids. We are eating cereal and celery. No movies, no trips. Papa wants to be flushed.
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Old 08-16-2019   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Does it matter? Do you think it`s a conspiracy and that it is not made in their factory? or are you thinking it`s not the factory in Germany and that somehow matters?

I take what they say as ... this lens is so great, that it even taxed your beloved Leica factory to its limits so pay us now.

They refer to them as plants sometimes, factories other times...

http://en2.leica-camera.com/service/...plant_germany/
Youíre not curious about that statement? It suggests Leica is making it at a facility that they own. When that is clearly not the case. Do you know of a Leica factory in Japan?
Previous Leica lenses have been made by Sigma and Panasonic (and Minolta but they no longer exist per se). Now that there is the L collaboration I am genuinely curious to know who makes what.
I use 2 Sigma Art lenses in the Nikon mount and they are fantastic, superbly built, crazy sharp, focus super fast and are big n heavy! They both were under $1000.
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Old 08-16-2019   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Youíre not curious about that statement? It suggests Leica is making it at a facility that they own. When that is clearly not the case. Do you know of a Leica factory in Japan?
Maybe I`m not getting it... does it say Made in Japan on the lens?
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Old 08-16-2019   #34
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Maybe I`m not getting it... does it say Made in Japan on the lens?
Does is say anything? You would think that if it were made in Germany they would mark it as such. SL lens owners?
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Old 08-16-2019   #35
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I don`t know to be honest... maybe I don`t know what I`m talking about.
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Old 08-16-2019   #36
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Sorry, wifie and kids. We are eating cereal and celery. No movies, no trips. Papa wants to be flushed.
Get rid of the wife..get rid of the kids..flush w/Leica...lol...
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Old 08-16-2019   #37
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1:34: "Made in Germany", and the workers look German to me, too:

Leica Lenses
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Old 08-16-2019   #38
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If I bought one of these $8000 Leica 50mm lenses, would I be able to tell a difference among photos from it vs. photos made with my $80 Jupiter-8? Or my $500 Konica M-Hexanon 50? Just wondering, in case I happen to find a suitcase of cash lying about.
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Old 08-16-2019   #39
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No, but you'd be surrounded by beautiful woman at each cocktail party where you casually wear a Leica and whisper sweet words into your ear.
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Old 08-16-2019   #40
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I normally end up with 90 year old men.
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