Leica vs China
Old 04-19-2019   #1
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Leica vs China

Apparently Leica is currently in hotwater so to say over vieo that was released earlier today

https:// ***********.com /content/leica-camera-trouble-over-video-china?fbclid=IwAR2Q7_w6iEDoza4e97gjgjS3XXznBR3QcfZ IOAsyJ3vB2tjFgINr_4Wc36g

Watch it while you can (the star part of the above is lav ida leica but as one word
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Old 04-19-2019   #2
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https://***********.com/content/leic...er-video-china


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Old 04-19-2019   #3
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Take the link, and where you find ******, replace that with "lav ida leica" and then get ride of the spaces. You'll have a link that works.

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Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
Bad link, try again.


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Old 04-19-2019   #4
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It's odd, but when I posted my link (as an Edit to my original Post) it does that asterisk thing. But when I use the link in my system memory, it displays and works just fine.


Of course, one could just go to https://***********.com/ and find the article.


Okay, this is just weird. My bookmark works just fine, but links from here don't, they just keep displaying the asterisks. Not good for the Internet if the Chinese can start blocking things all over the place.


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Old 04-19-2019   #5
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Seems like all the links on here so far are censored? This is what I found doing a Google search:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-l...-idUSKCN1RV0JG

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/19/1...protests-weibo

https://www.dpreview.com/news/150082...quare-protests

Looks like news outlets from all over are starting to or already have picked up the story. The video is about some promo that Leica made, but have since said they didn't make, of some photographer taking the picture of the infamous Tiananmen Square photo:



But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon.

Here's the video

The video also shows other photographers from other parts of history.

I watched the video, it didn't seem like it was insulting China or making light of the tragedy in Tiananmen Square, but more of a 'thank you' to photographers that put themselves in risky situations so that other people get a better idea of the world around them. Even at the end of the video it says "This film is dedicated to those who lend their eyes to make us see".

It reminds me of that one photo by Kenneth Jarecke during the Gulf War, of American pilots bombed a retreating Iraqi convoy, with his quote "If I don't photograph this, people like my mom will think war is what they see on TV" That photo was also refused by most US media to be published.
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Old 04-19-2019   #6
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Ya, I noticed it after I originally posted it and had to play with it so people could still use it. IT looks like when "La Vida" is a single word, it causes the scrambling.

Here's teh actual video link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAEUafI_lyI

Not sure how long it will last though

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
It's odd, but when I posted my link (as an Edit to my original Post) it does that asterisk thing. But when I use the link in my system memory, it displays and works just fine.


Of course, one could just go to https://***********.com/ and find the article.


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Old 04-19-2019   #7
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You know what, Huawei could be the biggest loser here.
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Old 04-19-2019   #8
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Fascinating ... the final few seconds of that video with the tank reflected in the lens really stirred the pot. As was pointed out in the comments below, that image was burned into the world's subconscious a long time ago. That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

I'll make no comment about Chinese politics though because that's not really appropriate here in my opinion.
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Old 04-19-2019   #9
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Quote:
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That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!
I am not sure it offends anyone other than the government.
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Old 04-19-2019   #10
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I am not sure it offends anyone other than the government.

In a democratic system it probably wouldn't really matter ... but it's not!
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Old 04-19-2019   #11
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My understanding is that 5 different photographers took that photo with a verity of equipment

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Originally Posted by mightbenow View Post


But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon.
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Old 04-19-2019   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
<snip>......That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

I'll make no comment about Chinese politics though because that's not really appropriate here in my opinion.
If this helps end the confusion about the links just go over to ***********.com, and follow,the article at the top of the page.

In that article there is a link to the South China Morning Press which contains more of the back story, enough to help flesh the story out a bit more. Here is that link: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...ting-tiananmen

Leica have not taken a risk, they have apparently bent over immediately to the Chinese government, and are more than fine with being censored by the ruling party there. (At least that is how it seems at this point). Google and Apple are fully on board with the Chinese government in its limiting of access to information to the Chinese people, and Leica seems willing to go along as well. This is a far cry from the actions of the family which controlled Leica during WWII which did what it could, at much personal risk, to save Jews from the Nazis.
Yes, China is a big part of their market, so money.

People are continuing to be imprisoned, tortured and die in China for talking publicly about the freedom movement that culminated in the massacre at Tiannamen Square. It is an event that the government has, through intimidation and control of almost all access to information, endeavoured fairly successfully to keep a secret from the Chinese people. The majority of Chinese under the age of thirty do not have any knowledge of “Tiannamen Square”. No one knows the name of the person in front of that tank, or what happened to him, but you can make an educated guess.

I don’t really think I am being “political” for mentioning this, and maybe it can be construed that way if one wishes, but, I don’t mind being somewhat in “solidarity” with Chinese dissidents. The information on Chinese oppression is out there if anyone is interested.
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Old 04-19-2019   #13
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Hmmmm, I watched the video and must say that there were other brands of cameras in use in addition to Leica during those conflict situations.

What's up with showing the actions of an Orwellian single party state in the same context as a lawless ethnic war zone?
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Old 04-19-2019   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
If this helps end the confusion about the links just go over to ***********.com, and follow,the article at the top of the page.

In that article there is a link to the South China Morning Press which contains more of the back story, enough to help flesh the story out a bit more. Here is that link: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...ting-tiananmen

Leica have not taken a risk, they have apparently bent over immediately to the Chinese government, and are more than fine fine with being censored by the ruling party there. (At least that is how it seems at thi spoint). Google and Apple are fully on board with the Chinese government in its limiting of access to information to the Chinese people, and Leica seems willing to go along as well. This is a far cry from the actions of the family which controlled Leica during WWII which did what it could, at much personal risk, to save Jews from the Nazis.
Yes, China is a big part of their market, so money.

People are continuing to be imprisoned, tortured and die in China for talking publicly about the freedom movement that culminated in the massacre at Tiannamen Square. It is an event that the government has, through intimidation and control of almost all access to information, endeavoured fairly successfully to keep a secret from the Chinese people. The majority of Chinese under the age of thirty do not have any knowledge of “Tiannamen Square”. No one knows the name of the person in front of that tank, or what happened to him, but you can make an educated guess.

I don’t really think I am being “political” for mentioning this, and maybe it can be construed that way if one wishes, but, I don’t mind being somewhat in “solidarity” with Chinese dissidents. The information on Chinese oppression is out there if anyone is interested.


You have said exactly what I wanted to say ... but was reluctant to.
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Old 04-19-2019   #15
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That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!
They would not if they knew better beforehand. It was not them who were under constant (and rapidly tightening) censorship after all.

Since the government has absolute power over every aspects of daily life (through the smartphone and the tank), the best the average joe could hope for is not "freedom", but just anything apolitical, so that they don't get into trouble. They opt for the illusion of material prosperity, which curiously lent to Leica's success in the market.

With the economy taking the down turn and the trade war hitting hard, stability is prized more than ever in the current Chinese psyche. The affluent Leica customers who frequent Sanlitun and Xintiandi have the most to lose in case of social upheaval, so anyone who brings reality (which means trouble) up is to blame. In this case, it's Leica...who got big business to do with Huawei as well, so little surprise that they fixed their "mistake" quite promptly.
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Old 04-19-2019   #16
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What is frightening about the question of China and photography is not a Leica promo. It is the infiltration of facial recognition surveillance in the public sphere. Ask any Chinese friends living in a major or second tier city and they will tell you no one jaywalks now. If you do, your phone will ping with a notification showing that the eyes in the sky have tracked your offence, you have been fined and your social credit points deducted - an Orwellian system to be sure.
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Old 04-19-2019   #17
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What is frightening about the question of China and photography is not a Leica promo. It is the infiltration of facial recognition surveillance in the public sphere. Ask any Chinese friends living in a major or second tier city and they will tell you no one jaywalks now. If you do, your phone will ping with a notification showing that the eyes in the sky have tracked your offence, you have been fined and your social credit points deducted - an Orwellian system to be sure.
People still jaywalk, a lot, even in Shanghai. That system hasn't been fully implemented yet - and IMO will never truly be outside the most developed districts.

But you do get facial recognition everywhere else, from the ever present surveillance cameras in every corner of the street to the controlled turnstiles at bullet train stations, where you must have your face and ID card scanned to enter. News pop up occasionally about schools running AI-based facial recognition systems to analyze and grade the kids' performance during class. Vending machines based on similar technology are being introduced in public areas. You just pay with your face.

But in general the average Chinese do not, and could not have cared. Ask one and you'll discover that privacy really is the least concern among the numerous social-economical issues people have to fight through. You're in check anyway, from birth to death.
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Old 04-19-2019   #18
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Quote:
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You have said exactly what I wanted to say ... but was reluctant to.

Keith,

I’m just “in a mood.”

Larry

And the new “social credit scores” definitely are Orwellian, maybe even Orwell turned up a notch.
Anyway, at this point I am not sure if Leica originally thought up this ad, as some reports seem to be saying they are denying that. Will be an interesting story. Seems unbelieveable that Leica would not know in advance what China’s response to an ad containing that photo would have been.
It would take a lot of guts for a Western enterprise to stand up to the Chinese government. If Leica won’t, they’ll at least know they have a lot of company in the groveling.
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Old 04-19-2019   #19
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Larry - I'm glad you were "in a mood".
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Old 04-19-2019   #20
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But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon.
dont know, but I remember reading there were several photographers documenting same moment, from that hotel balcony(balconies?).
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Old 04-19-2019   #21
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I am not sure it offends anyone other than the government.
The number of pro-China citizens who are expressing outrage is considerable. Then there are those with a more mercantile perspective, who suggest that Leica shot themselves in the foot regarding one of their larger emerging markets.

The is the second time Leica Brazil have created a supposedly unsanctioned promotional film. Last time, it was for the M Monochrom, where it was implied that Robert Capa shot with a Leica, when in fact, he didn't. When Leica Brazil (I think it was the Sao Paulo boutique?) posted that on YouTube, there was a comment from Leica Germany that said this was unauthorized, and it should be removed immediately. Here's a link to the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9kKgpkRbA

What's interesting is that once again, Leica Brazil have implied that historical war or conflict events were shot with a Leica.

This in no way detracts from the heroism of the photographers who took these images and got them out of China. One photographer gave a roll of of film to a French student who smuggled it out of China and gave it to AP later. Another had his film destroyed by PRC agents, but managed to hide that crucial roll of film in the toilet.

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2...-on-tiananmen/
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Old 04-19-2019   #22
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There is no place you can start or finish with China's interference in the affairs of other countries. They currently take about a third of Australia's export output so our government treads very carefully around every accusation of their meddling in this country ... no matter what the evidence!
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Old 04-20-2019   #23
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Quote:
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The number of pro-China citizens who are expressing outrage is considerable. Then there are those with a more mercantile perspective, who suggest that Leica shot themselves in the foot regarding one of their larger emerging markets.
Dispite angry nationalists, the "outrage" of Chinese netizen is mainly focused on the dramatization of the 1989 incident. The famous photo does have a strong image, but it does not tell even one tenth of the story of what, how, and why the incident happened. On the contrary the image often oversimplify the facts for casual (western) news readers.

Trivialising a multi-dimensional tragedy that actually did not push a country to the more open side is never good.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...les-claim.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.4e4112a3c71c
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Old 04-20-2019   #24
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Is this a new Leica advertisement? Are they trying to promote their brand...if so...where are the digital Leicas or what place do they have in this promotion?
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Old 04-20-2019   #25
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This, in todays Graun:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-square-advert
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Old 04-20-2019   #26
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I can't say this impresses me much but I guess it's to be expected. They have a lengthy association with the company that made and produced the ad but weren't aware of the content?
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Old 04-20-2019   #27
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I can't say this impresses me much but I guess it's to be expected. They have a lengthy association with the company that made and produced the ad but weren't aware of the content?
My uniformed guess is that Leica took their eyes off the ball and now are in an unseemly scrabble to cover their backsides to limit the financial and political damage. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at their next board meeting!
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Old 04-20-2019   #28
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I watched the video, it didn't seem like it was insulting China or making light of the tragedy in Tiananmen Square, but more of a 'thank you' to photographers that put themselves in risky situations so that other people get a better idea of the world around them. Even at the end of the video it says "This film is dedicated to those who lend their eyes to make us see".
So the segments of the video where the Chinese military is threatening the photograper and ransacking his room wouldn't cause offense to the Chinese government?
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Old 04-20-2019   #29
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China is a known quantity, but it’s a known quantity only outside China. The Guardian article lists a partial roster of Western companies who have not hesitated to be complicit with the Chinese government in its efforts to limit the freedom of the Chinese people. Leica isn’t the first, and it won’t be the last. Google and Apple, with the hold they have on the flow of information, are the most damaging.
But.....“Leica Camera AG must therefore distance itself from the content shown in the video and regrets any misunderstandings or false conclusions that may have been drawn,” a spokesperson, Emily Anderson said” Leica isn’t regretting a “misunderstanding”, it’s publicly regretting that someone in its company mentioned something akin to the truth, about a murderous regime, a regime it wants to get in bed with in order to make more money. It’s as simple as that. I’m personally hugely pro-business in general, but reading this statement from Leica just makes your skin crawl. Or, at least, I think it should. They had to make a choice, and they have apparently made it.

One wonders if there is ever going to be a significant western business enterprise, who, when faced with the same (and it is always the same) blowback from the Chinese state, just issues this press release “President Xi, go to Hell.”
That’ll be the day.
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Old 04-20-2019   #30
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China is a known quantity, but it’s a known quantity only outside China. The Guardian article lists a partial roster of Western companies who have not hesitated to be complicit with the Chinese government in its efforts to limit the freedom of the Chinese people. Leica isn’t the first, and it won’t be the last. Google and Apple, with the hold they have on the flow of information, are the most damaging.
But.....“Leica Camera AG must therefore distance itself from the content shown in the video and regrets any misunderstandings or false conclusions that may have been drawn,” a spokesperson, Emily Anderson said” Leica isn’t regretting a “misunderstanding”, it’s publicly regretting that someone in its company mentioned something akin to the truth, about a murderous regime, a regime it wants to get in bed with in order to make more money. It’s as simple as that. I’m personally hugely pro-business in general, but reading this statement from Leica just makes your skin crawl. Or, at least, I think it should. They had to make a choice, and they have apparently made it.

One wonders if there is ever going to be a significant western business enterprise, who, when faced with the same (and it is always the same) blowback from the Chinese state, just issues this press release “President Xi, go to Hell.”
That’ll be the day.
We're talking about a luxury brand here. Luxury brands largely deal in bulls**t, and Leica as it exists today is no exception. Strip away the BS and the M10 is basically a modified Canon 6D housed as a rangefinder. They get people to buy them because there is really no other option and they dress it up in fine clothes and fabulous marketing. (No shots, I want an M10 quite badly!)

This is NOT a company that is eager to help out the 'worker class'.
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Old 04-20-2019   #31
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We're talking about a luxury brand here. Luxury brands largely deal in bulls**t, and Leica as it exists today is no exception. Strip away the BS and the M10 is basically a modified Canon 6D housed as a rangefinder. They get people to buy them because there is really no other option and they dress it up in fine clothes and fabulous marketing. (No shots, I want an M10 quite badly!)

This is NOT a company that is eager to help out the 'worker class'.

Them's fightin' words ...
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Old 04-20-2019   #32
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You'd be hard pressed to find many companies that are eager to help out the 'worker class' ...

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This is NOT a company that is eager to help out the 'worker class'.
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Old 04-20-2019   #33
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Apparently Leica is currently in hotwater so to say over vieo that was released earlier today

https:// ***********.com /content/leica-camera-trouble-over-video-china?fbclid=IwAR2Q7_w6iEDoza4e97gjgjS3XXznBR3QcfZ IOAsyJ3vB2tjFgINr_4Wc36g

Watch it while you can (the star part of the above is lav ida leica but as one word
This would not have been approved by Leica Corporate.

Its most likely a mistake by a local PR dept.
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Old 04-20-2019   #34
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This would not have been approved by Leica Corporate.

Its most likely a mistake by a local PR dept.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread. Leica Brazil are behind this one, and created a controversial short film with Saatchi and Saatchi in 2013 for the M Monochrom, which implied that Robert Capa took the photos of D-Day with a Leica. We know he didn't. But the ad made it look like he did.

The 'Hunt' film does the same thing, implying that a Leica was used to shoot a historical war/conflict image, where in fact it was not.

https://vimeo.com/57612840

The original YouTube post from Leica Brazil had a comment from Leica's main channel, stating that this was an unauthorized commercial and it was to be removed immediately.

It makes me wonder just how much distance the Leica mothership actually had from these ads. If Leica Brazil commissioned the Monochrom ad themselves without guidance from the mothership, okay, but surely Leica would have told them to confirm any future commercials before release? If what Leica Rumors says is correct, 'Hunt' was a year in production. Surely Leica head office would have known about this?
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Old 04-20-2019   #35
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I wonder how much of this might have been purposeful, let your subisdiary make it so you can get the free advertising out of the controversy and then blame it all on them when china get's all hot and bothered about it?
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Leica moves to distance itself itself from Tiananmen video
Old 04-21-2019   #36
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Leica moves to distance itself itself from Tiananmen video

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Originally Posted by filmtwit View Post
I wonder how much of this might have been purposeful, let your subisdiary make it so you can get the free advertising out of the controversy and then blame it all on them when china get's all hot and bothered about it?
I don't think so.

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Germany's Leica moves to distance itself from Tiananmen video
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Old 04-21-2019   #37
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And a spokesperson for Saatchi and Saatchi has claimed the ad was approved by Leica! Like someone said earlier in this thread ... the next board meeting will be a beauty! lol
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Old 04-21-2019   #38
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It would be interesting to learn what effect these Leica videos have had. I just looked at the earlier '100' video. Its reenactment sequences of famous photographs is pretty tacky.
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Old 04-21-2019   #39
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Ya, that's pretty much what they've done. Kind of genius if you think about it.

On a some what different note. a few years back I did work shop with Peter Turnley, who has literally spent most of his adult life doing the type of work you see in this video. He absolutely hated (and would correct us too) when we'd use "hunt" vocabulary when describing any form of photography.
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Old 04-21-2019   #40
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Why didn't they include pictures taken by German Leica in their own, nazies concentraiton camps?



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