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Just when you thought the war was over! Sony 60 MP
Old 11-26-2018   #1
Darthfeeble
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Just when you thought the war was over! Sony 60 MP

It would be nice to find this in a Leica M11.
https://petapixel.com/2018/11/26/son...and-8k-report/
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Old 11-26-2018   #2
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Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
It would be nice to find this in a Leica M11.
https://petapixel.com/2018/11/26/son...and-8k-report/
Wow.

All I can say is that I am grateful for technology that continues to get better and cheaper. Each new generation eventually becomes old and cheap and that's when I buy it; and it's quite good enough for me by then.

I started my digital journey with a 640K (yes, 1/3 of a megapixel) Olympus D-220L, and I've worked my way to a Pentax K-50. Is there better out there? Oh my yes. But for the price, I feel very comfortable where I'm at. As things progress, this great new tech will eventually trickle down to my level.
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Old 11-26-2018   #3
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Then it better comes with image stabilization. Unlikely though.
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Old 11-26-2018   #4
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Then it better comes with image stabilization. Unlikely though.
That's been my biggest beef with Leica since the M8. At their price point it's absurd to not have it. Particularly given the style of photography that is common by users of the camera.
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Old 11-26-2018   #5
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sounds terrible, i'm already pushing the boundaries at 36 megapickles.
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Old 11-26-2018   #6
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Hasn't been a war for quite some time. Things have settled down into tiers.
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Old 11-26-2018   #7
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Originally Posted by bmattock View Post
Wow.

All I can say is that I am grateful for technology that continues to get better and cheaper. Each new generation eventually becomes old and cheap and that's when I buy it; and it's quite good enough for me by then...
Ditto - though unlike you I had no interest in buying early digital cameras as I was already heavily invested in film and I could see that digital was not going to match that for quite a few years. I eventually succumbed when Nikon bought out their D70s as this was the first camera that could really begin to compete. And it is the last new camera I have bought for the reason you mention. My two most "serious" cameras are still a Nikon D700 (bought second hand maybe 6 years ago for about half of new price and still going strong) and a Leica M8 (ditto). I have supplemented these with a couple of mirrorless cameras simply as they were so cheap to buy second hand and gave me the opportunity to put a lot of old lenses (also bought second hand) to use once more.

BTW in relation to the original post while I am not yearning for a 60 megapixel sensor I am interested in anything that improves dynamic range of digital or otherwise improves image quality (which in general is already excellent for most purposes). If 16 bit RAW does this then my ears have picked up and I am listening. Though my wallet will no doubt be hurting given the anticipated need to upgrade both computer hardware and processing software.
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Old 11-26-2018   #8
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I'm completely happy that things move fast in digital... because so do the used camera prices. At this rate... we are soon going to have 36mp FF cameras at $500 by next year (Sony A7R and Nikon D800).
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Old 11-26-2018   #9
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On the other hand, Canon will offer its customers
a new sensor with 75 megapixels. Please see the attached link.
It seems to me that the Megapixel Wars are starting again.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eo...kwnuWhNKgBhSIQ
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Old 11-26-2018   #10
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Although this may herald an improvement in DR, resolution, etc, I think I'm becoming very jaded by all of this. Maybe I'm just getting old, and I recognize that selecting the way that one works is a purely personal decision for nonprofessionals.

I shot hundreds and hundreds of digital color images on a trip last summer using a 16 MP Nikon SLR. I've had largish prints (10x15") made from some of these images, and they had detail and dynamic range aplenty. I expect that I may buy another digital camera before the end, but I will not be in the same hurry as in past years.
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Old 11-26-2018   #11
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16 channels of audio is norm for one channel of video in the broadcast.

8K is 4K x2, double UHD. It went from SD to HD in nineties. Our costumers are converting some of their facilities and trucks to UHD. Which is HD four times. Some big manufactures are still unable to fulfill their promises with 4K equipment. And most broadcast in HD.

It is NHK pushing to broadcast in 8K for 2020 Olympics. I guess, Sony gets big cut of the pie with their broadcast cameras and Canon might be as well.

Here isn't many 4K broadcasting companies. But 8K is going to be same as winter Olympics in nineties in HD. Well, slightly better. Back then we had one HD TV set for entire TV station. And in was in empty room for technical demonstrations only.
Now they have one TV set for 8K in BB USA store. 14K USD to watch 8K.

To handle 8K signal digitally 25 GB network switching devices are needed.

This will keep company I'm working for busy. 588x588 HD router becomes 74x74 router with 8K. And for sport events it has to be redundant....

I was staying late today at work, trying to get spare signal switching, routing card to one of the NHL broadcast centers to be send overnight. Even if they might have it redundant it is not a good feeling to have only one switching path for the game.
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Old 11-26-2018   #12
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In war and in photographic equipment innovation movement is all. Failure to move is death. If makers stop innovating sooner or later the market stops buying, money dries up, R and D (which creates the next generation of innovations to sell so the cycle can continue) then stops and shortly after so do the production lines. Then no more Nikon, Canon or whatever. At least not in their current form.

So they will keep finding new reasons to innovate. Or, as with the megapixel war which seemed to have a short armistice, they will recycle the same old reason on a new even more mind boggling scale.

I have said before that I recall reading various articles in the early days of digital (say late 1990's early 2000's) that to match film in terms of information captured digital sensors were going to need about 25 megapixels, maybe 30 mp at a stretch. Given that, at the time sensors were around 1 megapixel, that was quite a big "ask" back then.

But less than 20 years on, and we are now there in terms of every day products being marketed and well beyond that in terms of the cutting edge technology now on the market or soon to be.
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Old 11-26-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
16 channels of audio is norm for one channel of video in the broadcast.
I don't think 16 channels in this sense has anything to do with audio though. Why would a sensor be rated for audio? Audio is multiplexed into a video stream later down the line. I think this is just talking about data output lines from the sensor itself. Also called a multi-tap sensor. This would allow for quicker readout from the sensor to enable higher data transfer/higher frame rates.

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Old 11-26-2018   #14
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I don't think 16 channels in this sense has anything to do with audio though. Why would a sensor be rated for audio? Audio is multiplexed into a video stream later down the line. I think this is just talking about data output lines from the sensor itself. Also called a multi-tap sensor. This would allow for quicker readout from the sensor to enable higher data transfer/higher frame rates.

Shawn
Too much time at work, sorry. I see audio everywhere.
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Old 11-26-2018   #15
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Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
It would be nice to find this in a Leica M11.
https://petapixel.com/2018/11/26/son...and-8k-report/
It would be nice to find a modern 24mp sensor in the M11. The one in the 4 year old $1400 D750 outperforms the one in the $7000 M10..
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Old 11-27-2018   #16
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Well, honestly I hope that companies start competing by making interesting cameras that don't follow the norm. There aren't that many cameras, that don't follow the me too dslr shaped mirrorless camera mold, being made these days. It would be nice to see more super high quality compacts now that 24mp FF sensors are pedestrian.
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Old 11-27-2018   #17
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Well, honestly I hope that companies start competing by making interesting cameras that don't follow the norm. There aren't that many cameras, that don't follow the me too dslr shaped mirrorless camera mold, being made these days. It would be nice to see more super high quality compacts now that 24mp FF sensors are pedestrian.
Yes. But. When Zeiss introduced the ZX1 at photokina, (super high quality compact if there ever was one from the looks of it) the complaints, whether people admit it or not, were in essence that it didn’t follow the norm.

https://zx1.zeiss.com/

People want something different until they see it then they don’t. Too scary.
There’s always something to put somebody off. It’s too big, it’s too small, files are too big, files not big enough, people worrying about being obsoleted next year, something.

The “war” can’t ever be over because it’s a war for market share and company survival, it’s not a war for more useful cameras any longer.
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Old 11-27-2018   #18
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I would never want a 60MP camera. 24MP seems to be the sweet spot. I had a Nikon D810 (36MP) for a while and even that was too much compared to the D610 (24MP).
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Old 11-27-2018   #19
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I would never want a 60MP camera. 24MP seems to be the sweet spot. I had a Nikon D810 (36MP) for a while and even that was too much compared to the D610 (24MP).
I kinda agree. The 24mp in my (sold) D750 and M240 really is enough for most anything. If I need to print bigger than my normal size (i.e. really big) then I use image resizing software. My D850 and Z7 give greater margin (especially for cropping) but I really just use them for scanning, where it is nice to have such high rez files. But they take up so much memory and really require a new/higher perf computer.
So a 60mp camera would require a new investment in editing/storage hardware. It's not just 'yay I bought a new super meg pix camera!' It's now a 'darn I also need to upgrade my computer and hard drives'..
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Old 11-27-2018   #20
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.....So a 60mp camera would require a new investment in editing/storage hardware. It's not just 'yay I bought a new super meg pix camera!' It's now a 'darn I also need to upgrade my computer and hard drives'..
And so you by bigger & faster drives and cpu and a bigger pipe to/from the internet.......then the next wave of MP sensors get fired over the transom and you upgrade.......Marketing and capitalism rock.

I'd like to see an EVF war please and thank you.

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Old 11-27-2018   #21
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Yes. But. When Zeiss introduced the ZX1 at photokina, (super high quality compact if there ever was one from the looks of it) the complaints, whether people admit it or not, were in essence that it didn’t follow the norm.

https://zx1.zeiss.com/

People want something different until they see it then they don’t. Too scary.
There’s always something to put somebody off. It’s too big,
Well, first it's not compact... So different than I'm taking about. I think the shape and included light room is what put most people off. But yeah at least it is different.
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Old 11-27-2018   #22
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Well, first it's not compact...
To me, it’s decidedly compact.
Compact or not compact, that distinction lies in the realm of opinion, not fact. There is no dividing line except for personal ones. Many people sharing an opinion would not change that. If there were National Bureau of Standards measurements for “compact”, maybe then......no, not even then.
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Old 11-27-2018   #23
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.... If there were National Bureau of Standards measurements for “compact”, maybe then......no, not even then.
I'm still waiting for the NBS to provide some guidance for Fast, User Friendly, and Pretty.

My guess is it's work that was dropped due to sequestration and other budget cuts....

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Old 11-27-2018   #24
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If I wanted to use a camera like an iPhone, I would just use an iPhone; however, I am sure there are some who might find its features useful.
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Old 11-27-2018   #25
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Darn I just bought a 36 Mp FF. Now I have to worry my neighbor will get a 60 Mp.
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Old 11-27-2018   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Yes. But. When Zeiss introduced the ZX1 at photokina, (super high quality compact if there ever was one from the looks of it) the complaints, whether people admit it or not, were in essence that it didn’t follow the norm.

https://zx1.zeiss.com/

People want something different until they see it then they don’t. Too scary.
There’s always something to put somebody off. It’s too big, it’s too small, files are too big, files not big enough, people worrying about being obsoleted next year, something.

The “war” can’t ever be over because it’s a war for market share and company survival, it’s not a war for more useful cameras any longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Well, honestly I hope that companies start competing by making interesting cameras that don't follow the norm. There aren't that many cameras, that don't follow the me too dslr shaped mirrorless camera mold, being made these days. It would be nice to see more super high quality compacts now that 24mp FF sensors are pedestrian.
You're both right! The recent mirrorless offerings from Canon and Nikon can be seen as a missed opportunity. Those are some boring cameras. Looking historically we shouldn't have expected anything else. Market leaders but from a horsepower perspective; little in terms of innovation. "Fleet" sales are their bread and butter. Sony has scared them and their latest cameras reveal a catch up strategy. Whether this has given them a kick in the pants or exposed their decline, time will tell.

Smaller companies like Sigma and Fuji will make more interesting cameras because they have to. Fleet sales mean nothing to them so if they want to make money they have to offer an alternative.
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Old 11-27-2018   #27
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.....Smaller companies like Sigma and Fuji will make more interesting cameras because they have to. Fleet sales mean nothing to them so if they want to make money they have to offer an alternative.
On a good day I'd add Ricoh to the group.

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Old 11-27-2018   #28
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
To me, it’s decidedly compact.
Compact or not compact, that distinction lies in the realm of opinion, not fact. There is no dividing line except for personal ones. Many people sharing an opinion would not change that. If there were National Bureau of Standards measurements for “compact”, maybe then......no, not even then.
VS... A medium format camera...not weight, but just length and height it is big...
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Old 11-27-2018   #29
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Ditto - though unlike you I had no interest in buying early digital cameras as I was already heavily invested in film and I could see that digital was not going to match that for quite a few years.
I had a specific use case - I was an international traveling software consultant and it was a lot easier taking the cheap-and-cheerful Olympus from place to place than it was shooting film. I did take a film camera with me for the first couple years. But this was before 9/11 and it wasn't that hard to get rolls of film hand-inspected, to have camera equipment pass through security undamaged (and unstolen).

After 9/11, although I knew that film was superior, it just became more and more of a hassle and the digital option, though lower quality, was simply much more convenient. I could keep the camera on me, no rolls of film to be damaged by x-rays or 'lost' in my luggage, etc.

I still have the digital photos I took at 640x480 back then. Not the greatest quality, but suitable for the web and memories. They aren't ready for hanging in gallery or publishing in a book, but they've been less ephemeral than I thought they might be at first.
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Old 11-27-2018   #30
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I'd like to see an EVF war please and thank you.

B2 (;->

Agreed! But the EVF in the Z7 is pretty darn good. I can nail focus wide open w/o having to resort to any of the aids such as magnification, peaking etc. And very quickly. Nikon spent a tonne of money getting it right - not just in resolution but in the optics behind it:

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-an...inder-evf.html
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Old 11-27-2018   #31
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VS... A medium format camera...not weight, but just length and height it is big...
LOL. I know the size. That wasn't the point I obviously failed to make. But, any old how, it would still be a compact in my hands, for my use, and I could not perceive it otherwise, diagrams notwithstanding. Whatever.

The camera war is not over at any rate, getting back on topic.

"In war the result is never final." Carl von Clausewitz
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Old 11-27-2018   #32
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Agreed! But the EVF in the Z7 is pretty darn good. I can nail focus wide open w/o having to resort to any of the aids such as magnification, peaking etc. And very quickly. Nikon spent a tonne of money getting it right - not just in resolution but in the optics behind it:

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-an...inder-evf.html
Haven't touched one yet.....

I'd like to see that work trickle down into a XE-3 size and priced camera. Not being a professional that would get me to jump in and purchase a new camera. The quality of the viewfinder is as important to me as the fell of the camera/lens.

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Old 11-27-2018   #33
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VS... A medium format camera...not weight, but just length and height it is big...
You should add say a ZX-1 vs say a XE-3, Leica CL perhaps, or X70.....

I know, dragging us back off topic.

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Old 11-27-2018   #34
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Oh boy! I paid $500+ to get my 10MB M8 fixed, and now there will be cameras with 60+ MB sensors. What hae I done??!!
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Old 11-27-2018   #35
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Oh boy! I paid $500+ to get my 10MB M8 fixed, and now there will be cameras with 60+ MB sensors. What hae I done??!!
Made a sound investment.......

at least IMHO.

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Old 11-27-2018   #36
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Amazing. If they carry on innovating like this, there may be cameras with more resolution than my thirty-year-old Mamiya 6!
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Old 11-27-2018   #37
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Made a sound investment.......

at least IMHO.

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I love my M8.
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Old 11-27-2018   #38
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Chiming as the tech-equivalent of the guy with the pince-nez and ear trumpet, I’m happy to hear about Zeiss upsizing the dainty RX1 (one of my most reliable tools, though cramped!) and bundling WiFi/LR-editing goodies for life on the road with iPhone as a production studio.

The compact cameras I reach for most are digital — Leica and Sigma Merrill and Sony and Ricoh. A couple operate ‘filmically’—the M-D 262 and the X100s—and that’s great, in a Have Your Cake and Eat It fashion. But I also like the quirkier handling of the Leica T and DP2Q and SDQ, in part because I don’t mind the little brain-rewiring exercises to make me work well with their capabilities, and in part because I like having lots of resolution for cropping or stretching the file like taffy. A bigger better sensor and f2-2.8 lens (fixed being a bonus, not a handicap) in a relatively small tool sounds great to me, and really, I’m already there—without having bought any of my standbys new. I bet I’ll get a great deal in a couple of years on the ZX1 from someone who tried it but is going in the other direction—the world of film....

——————————-
Context: Filmwise, though I *am* using my Fuji GF and GA, but how much longer in a world where I can get MF resolution from Foveon...?
I did just come to a decision, half regret half relief, to say sayonara arrivederci so long fare thee well to 35mm film, despite my squinty inner sentimental geezer. In truth I am not nor ever was nor will be a paragon of doing wet stuff in the dark, or the mongrelized solution of scanning. Best to let the sublime pros and lifelong devotees of 24x36 filmcraft do that.
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Old 11-27-2018   #39
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You should add say a ZX-1 vs say a XE-3, Leica CL perhaps, or X70.....

I know, dragging us back off topic.

B2 (;->
Just a different way of saying the same thing... It's not compact.
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Old 11-27-2018   #40
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