The Misunderstood Leica Monochrom
Old 02-04-2014   #1
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The Misunderstood Leica Monochrom

Of all the digital cameras that Leica makes, this is the one that I find captivating. If the price were not problematic, I would likely acquire one.

Link: http://kennethreitz.org/leica-monochrom-review/
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Old 02-04-2014   #2
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The Monochrom has influenced me away from B&W film, but I still use color film/transparency. The high ISO is pretty amazing. The ability to change the raw capture is also a plus. Just about any ons will sing on it. Price aside, it's hard to beat in my book.

Haven't mastered it quite yet, but am having fun trying.
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=7855...00&q=Monochrom
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Old 02-04-2014   #3
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If I shot digital, only BW, and had a lot of money, I'd consider the Monochrom, it's a ballsy product, hats off to Leica for making it.

I don't get the 'Inconspicuous' argument in the article though, it's an unusual looking camera which you raise to your eye, increasingly uncommon these days. If you really wanted to fade into the background, you'd use a DSLR, compact, or phone.

I've considered getting a Nikon F5 just so I have a camera which looks like an everyday DSLR, rather than a Rolleiflex which I've had people stare at like they couldn't believe what they were seeing.
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Old 02-04-2014   #4
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It's an amazing camera. But I don't understand why it demands such a premium over the Leica M-E. Is it really that expensive to not throw in the Bayer filter for a some short runs? I figure rewriting the software would be a piece of cake. Did it require a different processor?

The Monochrom is my most lusted after camera. But for now, the Sigma Foveon cameras do just fine and offer similar visual acuity. One thing to note: there have been rumors that Sony is putting together a monochrome camera as well. If they do, I'll completely invest in Sony, despite disliking fly-by-wire and EVFs.
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Old 02-04-2014   #5
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It's an amazing camera. But I don't understand why it demands such a premium over the Leica M-E. Is it really that expensive to not throw in the Bayer filter for a some short runs? I figure rewriting the software would be a piece of cake. Did it require a different processor?

The Monochrom is my most lusted after camera. But for now, the Sigma Foveon cameras do just fine and offer similar visual acuity. One thing to note: there have been rumors that Sony is putting together a monochrome camera as well. If they do, I'll completely invest in Sony, despite disliking fly-by-wire and EVFs.
The Monochrom will have required development and investment, it all has to be paid for off the back of what is probably extremely low sales.
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Old 02-04-2014   #6
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The Monochrom will have required development and investment, it all has to be paid for off the back of what is probably extremely low sales.
I actually can't see too much being spent on developing the MM...Leica just removed the bayer and IR filter and put a piece of optical glass there instead, right? The chassis and components almost all come from the M9. Tweaking the software to read single pixel luminance data instead of the standard processing algorithm also probably isn't too difficult.

That said, I'd love to have one based on the M type 240...CMOS sensors handle highlight and shadow space better, the creative possibility of such a body would be endless - rich, clean shots made at iso 51,200, for example.
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Old 02-04-2014   #7
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The Monochrom will have required development and investment, it all has to be paid for off the back of what is probably extremely low sales.
Utterly debatable. Monochrome cameras have been in service in the security and defense camera industry for ages.
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Old 02-04-2014   #8
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I keep hoping that Ricoh would release a monochrome sensor GR variant.
I think that little camera has enough of a cult following to pull it off.
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Old 02-04-2014   #9
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I actually can't see too much being spent on developing the MM...Leica just removed the bayer and IR filter and put a piece of optical glass there instead, right? The chassis and components almost all come from the M9. Tweaking the software to read single pixel luminance data instead of the standard processing algorithm also probably isn't too difficult.
I recall reading there were improvements made to the main electronics boards as well.

Amungst mine the, MM certainly seems significantly less prone to high ISO banding than the M9.
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Old 02-04-2014   #10
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I recall reading there were improvements made to the main electronics boards as well.

Amungst mine the, MM certainly seems significantly less prone to high ISO banding than the M9.
Yes. I felt that the MM was somewhat more responsive - but maybe that's just me.

The better high iso performance can be explained by the removal of the Bayer filter, which cuts out about 1.5 stops of light. Hence ISO 1000 on the MM is actually ISO 320 (or so) on the M9. That and the lack of color noise makes the MM a very competent camera for high ISO work...and why I want a M type 240 version for things such as night street photography.
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Old 02-04-2014   #11
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Yes. I felt that the MM was somewhat more responsive - but maybe that's just me.

The better high iso performance can be explained by the removal of the Bayer filter, which cuts out about 1.5 stops of light. Hence ISO 1000 on the MM is actually ISO 320 (or so) on the M9. That and the lack of color noise makes the MM a very competent camera for high ISO work...and why I want a M type 240 version for things such as night street photography.
The removal of a Bayer filter removes the need for color interpolation algorithms and thus simplifying the entire image chain.
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Old 02-05-2014   #12
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The only thing that doesn't work for me with the MM is the price ... that aside I find it the most desirable camera on the market currently.
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Old 02-05-2014   #13
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Utterly debatable. Monochrome cameras have been in service in the security and defense camera industry for ages.
Which bit is debatable?

Development costs? I'm aware that monochrome cameras existed before this one, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think that manufacturers of such equipment would simply provide all their technology for free to Leica.

Perhaps I'm missing your point, but I don't see how something already existing in the industry changes Leica's need to pay salaries etc.
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Old 02-05-2014   #14
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Which bit is debatable?

Development costs? I'm aware that monochrome cameras existed before this one, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think that manufacturers of such equipment would simply provide all their technology for free to Leica.

Perhaps I'm missing your point, but I don't see how something already existing in the industry changes Leica's need to pay salaries etc.
The point is that monochrome cameras are inherently simpler to develop and operate. The color interpolation algorithm is what complicates the bulk of camera processing and a major source of image artifacts such as moire. Developing a sensor that does not need color is a no-brainer. I'm not even sure what Leica's issues were when it came to developing a monochrome camera. Sensor manufacturing costs are even lower with one less layer to overlay on the sensor. The only possible reason why the camera is so expensive is probably because Leica ordered a much smaller batch of sensors and thus driving up the price by a few times.
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Old 02-05-2014   #15
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The point is that monochrome cameras are inherently simpler to develop and operate. The color interpolation algorithm is what complicates the bulk of camera processing and a major source of image artifacts such as moire. Developing a sensor that does not need color is a no-brainer. I'm not even sure what Leica's issues were when it came to developing a monochrome camera. Sensor manufacturing costs are even lower with one less layer to overlay on the sensor. The only possible reason why the camera is so expensive is probably because Leica ordered a much smaller batch of sensors and thus driving up the price by a few times.
Right, I see, well I don't know much about manufacturing, but I do know that the less you make of something, the more expensive it is per part.

And simpler firmware or not, someone has to be paid to do it.

I don't doubt you're right about the small batch, however.
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Old 02-05-2014   #16
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Now they just need to standartize on a battery designs so we users can buy one 10, 20, 30...years later. It's a shame when one has to toss good camera just because new fresh batteries can't be bought anymore! Or just make AA-fueled grips.

What's they joy spending 28K for limited edition camera not being sure it can be propely operated 10 years later?
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Old 02-05-2014   #17
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Now they just need to standartize on a battery designs so we users can buy one 10, 20, 30...years later. It's a shame when one has to toss good camera just because new fresh batteries can't be bought anymore! Or just make AA-fueled grips.

What's they joy spending 28K for limited edition camera not being sure it can be propely operated 10 years later?


Living in a glass cabinet probably won't require a battery!
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Old 02-05-2014   #18
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Living in a glass cabinet probably won't require a battery!
Well, don't use it - but sale listing still benefits from pictures with menus on screen vs plain black
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Old 02-05-2014   #19
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I don't actually think the MM is misunderstood at all ... it's perfectly clear what Leica's aims were with this camera and it was a pretty bold move IMO.

People who own the thing appear to love it ... the number of image posts in the MM thread considering the exclusivity of the camera is amazing!
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Old 02-05-2014   #20
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Misunderstood? Huh? Not on RFF at least.
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Old 02-05-2014   #21
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I would *love* to own one, but as mentioned above, the pricing doesn't make any sense to me.
The closest I will ever get is when Fujifilm offers a monochrome APS X-something, sim to the X100.
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Old 02-05-2014   #22
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Pure conjecture on my part here, but I suspect that Leica, not knowing if there was a market for such a camera decided to attach a premium price as if it were a limited edition.
I suspect that had it been more reasonably priced it would have sold in considerable numbers. Unfortunately Leica as a policy don't seem to do price adjustment, which is a shame, maybe in it's next incarnation.
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Old 02-05-2014   #23
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I suspect that had it been more reasonably priced it would have sold in considerable numbers.
Leica cannot compete on volume.
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Old 02-05-2014   #24
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No I meant M8 M9, numbers.
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Old 02-05-2014   #25
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Utterly debatable. Monochrome cameras have been in service in the security and defense camera industry for ages.
But not rangefinder cameras...

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Old 02-05-2014   #26
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I actually can't see too much being spent on developing the MM...Leica just removed the bayer and IR filter and put a piece of optical glass there instead, right?

Maybe they should have hired you then for this project. Based on an interview with Kaufmann:

"The black and white project devoured tens of millions of euros and tied one and a half years, a large part of the development team - a daring undertaking for the small company."

and:

"Kaufmann had hoped to 3500 units per year to sell, in fact there are about three times as many."

source

So tens of millions in R&D, while expecting to sell only 10 pieces a day explains a lot about the final price of the MM.
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Old 02-05-2014   #27
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I`m beginning to like what I see from the Monochrome.
At first the pictures were far to graphic for my taste but now they seem to be a more nuanced.
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Old 02-05-2014   #28
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I'd like to have one but too expensive. Having already own an M9P, I couldn't get the MM. Unfortunately Leica don't take in M9 upgrade for MM, otherwise I don't mind paying some fees to get MM.
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Old 02-05-2014   #29
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Probably have seen this review - captures the monochrom complex well, I think:

http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...nochrom-part1/

as others have said, the only objection to this camera i've seen mentioned is cost.
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Old 02-05-2014   #30
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The point is that monochrome cameras are inherently simpler to develop and operate. The color interpolation algorithm is what complicates the bulk of camera processing and a major source of image artifacts such as moire. Developing a sensor that does not need color is a no-brainer. I'm not even sure what Leica's issues were when it came to developing a monochrome camera. Sensor manufacturing costs are even lower with one less layer to overlay on the sensor. The only possible reason why the camera is so expensive is probably because Leica ordered a much smaller batch of sensors and thus driving up the price by a few times.
Is that so? I guess that Phsase One is a profiteering company then
The IQ 260 Achromatic costs 10.000 $ more than the colour IQ 260…

Small series special development cameras simply cost more to produce.
As it is the premium Leica charges is quite modest, I suspect the margin on the Monochrom is more narrow than on the M or ME.
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Old 02-05-2014   #31
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Maybe they should have hired you then for this project. Based on an interview with Kaufmann:

"The black and white project devoured tens of millions of euros and tied one and a half years, a large part of the development team - a daring undertaking for the small company."

and:

"Kaufmann had hoped to 3500 units per year to sell, in fact there are about three times as many."

source

So tens of millions in R&D, while expecting to sell only 10 pieces a day explains a lot about the final price of the MM.
I can't get my mind around the math here... let's say they threw in Euro 20 million, that's about 27 million USD of pure R&D. Now they expect to sell 3500 units a year at $8,000, which is about $28 million in sales worldwide. The saleable life of a digital camera is about 3-4 years, and Leica is no exception. This means Leica will only generate about $100 million in revenue over the entire project. Considering how much it costs to build, distribute and service these cameras, and the high cost of small sensor batches, I would be surprise that any company would be willing to take such a project...

They might well be talking about a whole B&W division budget, which also includes investment for future Monochrome bodies as well as potential alternative designs. That makes slightly more sense, but I seriously doubt even such an undertaking would require so much money. The MM is, after all, an M9 with a bayer-less sensor. Also, it's no secret that companies try to boast about their R&D spending. Apple recruiting guys will frequently say how much they spend on R&D, but in reality Apple spends far, far less on R&D than Samsung or Cisco.


...Not that I intend to fault Leica for making the camera. It's a great tool and they have every right to be proud of it.
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Old 02-05-2014   #32
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Is that so? I guess that Phsase One is a profiteering company then
The IQ 260 Achromatic costs 10.000 $ more than the colour IQ 260…

Small series special development cameras simply cost more to produce.
As it is the premium Leica charges is quite modest, I suspect the margin on the Monochrom is more narrow than on the M or ME.
What? Sensor size scales with costs exponentially, and a low production part scales up even more? As it is, a medium format sensor will have a higher rejection rate than a 35mm sensor.

Heck, even CMOSIS has sensors with options for a Bayer filter array or no Bayer filter array. Take a look at this webpage: http://www.cmosis.com/products/stand...ducts/cmv12000

Same Sensor, but options for color and mono. Honestly, I think Leica is just giving a sorry excuse for even spending so much money on research for a "monochrome" sensor when that same sensor is likely to be available in color and mono. Either that, or pure incompetence.
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Old 02-05-2014   #33
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What? Sensor size scales with costs exponentially, and a low production part scales up even more? As it is, a medium format sensor will have a higher rejection rate than a 35mm sensor.

Heck, even CMOSIS has sensors with options for a Bayer filter array or no Bayer filter array. Take a look at this webpage: http://www.cmosis.com/products/stand...ducts/cmv12000

Same Sensor, but options for color and mono. Honestly, I think Leica is just giving a sorry excuse for even spending so much money on research for a "monochrome" sensor when that same sensor is likely to be available in color and mono. Either that, or pure incompetence.
All Leica needs is a pencil...

http://petapixel.com/2013/08/04/scra...per-bw-photos/ Not for the faint hearted, though
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Old 02-05-2014   #34
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If I can justify the price, I'd buy this camera in a heartbeat.
It's the only unique digital camera that I'd love to shoot with.
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Old 02-05-2014   #35
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What? Sensor size scales with costs exponentially, and a low production part scales up even more? As it is, a medium format sensor will have a higher rejection rate than a 35mm sensor.

Heck, even CMOSIS has sensors with options for a Bayer filter array or no Bayer filter array. Take a look at this webpage: http://www.cmosis.com/products/stand...ducts/cmv12000

Same Sensor, but options for color and mono. Honestly, I think Leica is just giving a sorry excuse for even spending so much money on research for a "monochrome" sensor when that same sensor is likely to be available in color and mono. Either that, or pure incompetence.
Ok. I understand. Both Leica and Phase One are incompetents ripping the public off…. Thank you for your insight.
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Old 02-06-2014   #36
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the monochrom is an ambitious move from leica...and i want one awwwwww....:P....but i cannot complain about my m9....awwwww


I saw that misunderstood leica "review"....i can´t understand what´s the point of going over and over again on the matter of buying X, Y, Z gear for the high price of leica...or who cares about someone considering the monochrom pure excess...
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Old 02-06-2014   #37
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There was a long waiting list until just a couple of months ago. I waited 6 months for mine. I think it has sold well for a Leica. Maybe not in the M 240 or M9 numbers but I'm glad Leica is not the one size fits all company. We already have a lot of those out there. It is a great camera and it's great Leica had the balls to make a camera like this. Some of my own words and images over at Steve Huff from back in Oct.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/1...lan-bourgeois/
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Old 02-06-2014   #38
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Some of my own words and images over at Steve Huff from back in Oct.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/1...lan-bourgeois/
Some great ones in there! Particularly the 2nd and 4th image.
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Old 02-06-2014   #39
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Some great ones in there! Particularly the 2nd and 4th image.
Thank you.
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Old 02-06-2014   #40
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A Brilliant Camera for sure....but I still prefer shooting FILM
Digi is Fun but does not hold my Attention for Long
Hence a small p&s digi for me
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