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Df2, what I would like to see
Old 01-05-2014   #1
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Df2, what I would like to see

Let me start by saying Ive owned my Df for about a month and really like it. I have a particular fondness becaus I'm an old film guy and used Nikons for over forty years.

I feel Nikon is on the right track with the Df and would love to see them continue the series with an even more retro camera. I would love to see nikon remove the LCD and create an app to review images via wifi or hard connection through an iPhone, android or tablet. Menue functions could be set this way as well as reviewing images if desired. Next I'd like to see only analog controls like the F or F2. No buttons and nothing other than shutter speed and ISO with exposure compensation on the body. No AF at all and no G series lens capability. You could only use non AI and AI (s) lenses. Also, please Nikon, give us interchangeable focusing screens or at least a split image with microprism collar screen. This is a must! Next the camera would only shoot raw 14 bit. Ok you might be able to set it to shoot jpg through the app. The only LCDs on the camera would be a frame counter and info in the VF, shutter speed, ISO and F stop. If you want to take it farther give us a manual shutter wind and no motor.

Keep the basic Df design, small and light. Keep it simple! Let's keep the fantastic F4 sensor. What are your thoughts?
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Old 01-05-2014   #2
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Can´t believe you´d take vital features out of the body and fiddle around with an iphone instead...... where´s the point?
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Old 01-05-2014   #3
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Fine as is except it needs a real focusing screen, split prism angled for 2.8 would be perfect. I really don`t care about people who buy cheap consumer zooms as they will not use a $3000 camera anyway.

More perfect , if that is possible, interchangeable split image for 2.8 and 5.6.

Factory special for above would be ok and they could taylor the metering for the new screen. Or send one in for factory mod.
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Old 01-05-2014   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
What are your thoughts?


Here is what you wrote some weeks ago as an answer to people expressing the exact same ideas as those you develop above :

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
If you don't like it simply don't buy it. It give another choice and that's it. It wasn't a personal slap in the face from nikon. It's great to see a departure from the worn bar of soap look that everyone uses. I like the operation of my D800 and have few complaints except I would like a split image focusing screen in it. Oops that's my only real complaint about the Df.

Anyway the DF satisfies my need for a light weight, rugged, pro quality, high ISO performer centered around manual focus lenses. Those of you that don't like it just let it go and keep using your D700 or buy the camera you do like. It's not a personal attack from Nikon. You have a choice.
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Old 01-05-2014   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post


Here is what you wrote some weeks ago as an answer to people expressing the exact same ideas as those you develop above :



Perhaps the OP has learned from his month or so of actual experience with the Df. I usually consider the ability to learn from one's experience to be a good trait, not a bad one.
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Old 01-05-2014   #6
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I think that the Nikon DF is the most boring came release in many years! It is an uglier version of an existing camera with fewer specs. But that's just me. The great thing is that this camera is the best camera for some people and that's whats important!
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Old 01-05-2014   #7
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Perhaps the OP has learned from his month or so of actual experience with the Df. I usually consider the ability to learn from one's experience to be a good trait, not a bad one.
Eh eh. Nice and/or funny to read under some others' keyboards exactly what I was writing about a possible DfN or Df2...
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Old 01-05-2014   #8
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No back screen, no wifi, single AF point, no exp comp (if you have diaphragm, speed and iso you have all you need), good focussing screen with split prism, no menu (obviously), no scenes,
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Old 01-05-2014   #9
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It would be entertaining to read the reviews of THAT camera...
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Old 01-05-2014   #10
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Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
No back screen, no wifi, single AF point, no exp comp (if you have diaphragm, speed and iso you have all you need), good focussing screen with split prism, no menu (obviously), no scenes...
And it'll never pass the Nikon marketing department... the purists' 'niche' not being their thing.
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Old 01-05-2014   #11
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So every time you need to alter a setting there isn't a dial for or check a pic I need look at my phone. If you are going to go that far why not just shoot film. Nikon is never going to make a camera like that and why should they it makes no sense.
What happens if someone phones me while I'm changing my white balance
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Old 01-05-2014   #12
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So every time you need to alter a setting there isn't a dial for or check a pic I need look at my phone. If you are going to go that far why not just shoot film. Nikon is never going to make a camera like that and why should they it makes no sense.
What happens if someone phones me while I'm changing my white balance
Totally, just shoot film. It'll be hell of a lot cheaper than whattever a Df2 would cost.

I don't quite understand why there are always a few "purists" that are crazy over the idea of a modern digital camera which purposely leaves out useful technology in favour of inconvenient nostalgia. Why not just turn off your screen and auto functions and pretend? It'll be a lot less expensive.
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Old 01-05-2014   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nongfuspring View Post
I don't quite understand why there are always a few "purists" that are crazy over the idea of a modern digital camera which purposely leaves out useful technology in favour of inconvenient nostalgia. Why not just turn off your screen and auto functions and pretend? It'll be a lot less expensive.
When the Df came out after that infamous videos teasing marketing campaign, some (I was one of them) immediatly thought that this half-half camera was obviously suffering from :

- too many buttons on the back side, many of them being redundant
- useless features (top cover LCD, left panel ports for instance)
- weak battery
- one card slot only
- no eyepiece shutter
- plastic inwards (shame #1)
- no interchangeable focusing screens (shame #2)

For this (which is now shared by most of the serious reviewers) we got flamed by people calling us "purists" and who were about to tell us how nice that unique camera was.

Now the same guys want it to be without any screen...
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Old 01-05-2014   #14
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Totally, just shoot film. It'll be hell of a lot cheaper than whattever a Df2 would cost.
That's more or less what I decided. To be honest I was really looking out to it but not being able to use only a single AF point and not split prism was what turned me away. All the rest you could just turn off.
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Old 01-05-2014   #15
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I don't remember seeing a screen on any of my film bodies and for much of my career I never used a motor, popup flash or auto anything and I made images as good or better than having all the current options with a DSLR. Why suddenly do we depend on all of this? We have the option if we want to use it but it's not necessary. I even shot football as a journalist in the 60's with an M Leica, visoflex 2 and 200 and 280mm.


I also can't recall film over 1600 ISO or 3200 with a push. Color at that speed, I don't think there's been any. I don't particularly like the look of high speed film. The Df certainly beats the pants off high speed film IMO.

If you're shooting raw you don't need to worry about color balance. Color is balanced in the conversion.

I'm not suggesting one AF point, I'm suggesting manual only.

Is it that shooters today lack confidence and have to check every frame? Are we incapable of making a photo without checking it. Can we not shoot a single frame and be confident in what we shot or do we have to shoot 128 gigs of data at 11 fps and search for one image that works? When I apprenticed in 1971 under a master commercial photographer he would only allow be to use 1 4x5 Polaroid on a setup. He said it was a crutch for a weak photographer. I apprenticed for a year and a half and learned to see with my eyes and think the shot through and use my light meter to tell me what the scene looked like.

I agree in my commercial work I love the ability to confirm a shot and then download it to the computer for my client to review but in my documentary work I've always shot film till last year. In that work I don't find the need to review or have the time because things happen quickly and it's too easy to miss the best shot.

I'm not betting Nikon will do this but I'm not betting they won't. Think back to the reintroduction of a limited production S3 and SP bodies and 50 1.4 and 35 1.8. Not a money maker I'm guessing but they did it.

Impractical and won't sell, the Leica M8, M9, ME, M240 and MM appeal to a very narrow audience and are in no way comparable in reliability or quality with the Df. Just check the complaints about these and see what I'm talking about but it continues to sell beyond Leicas capacity to produce them and at an outrageous price. Folks including myself fork out $7k for a body that's quite flawed in design and execution and they, not I, come back with wads of money for more. Until the M240 none of the M digitalis did video.

The comment about turn off the LCD, it's easier, is exactly what I've done. I've used it with G AF lenses on assignment where I had to shoot with VR hand held at 6400 ISO but generally I use my D 800 for that but normally shoot AIs manual focus primes. Actually I built a very good kit of primes for the Df and the only AF lens in the kit is an 85 1.4D. It's so critical to focus at 1.4 that I do use AF under some conditions. If I had a split image / microprism screen I probably wouldn't care about the AF.

My suggestions are just words for thought. I know it's unlikely anything would ever come to market but I'm interested in how it would be received and others suggestions. IF WE HAD SUCH a camera we always have other alternatives if it doesn't fit our style. None of us are forced to buy a camera they don't like. The thing to remember is we all have different likes and needs. That's why we do t buy one kind of car and live in one stile house. We have choices.
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Old 01-05-2014   #16
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Quote:
My suggestions are just words for thought... but I'm interested in how it would be received and others suggestions.
Interchangeable screens seems to be the only viable, but still unlikely option as both Canon and Nikon seem to have done away with them. The other thoughts might make for a retro looking camera, but the usability would be awful.
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Old 01-05-2014   #17
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Really all I'd want out of a Df2 (or any pro-level Nikon digi) is removable prism/interchangeable screens. I shoot an F3 and a D200. They're different animals for different things. The only thing from the F3 I really want on the D200 is the prism/screen setup.

(The only thing I want from the D200 on the F3 is a nice chunky grip)
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Old 01-05-2014   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
Let me start by saying Ive owned my Df for about a month and really like it. I have a particular fondness becaus I'm an old film guy and used Nikons for over forty years.

I feel Nikon is on the right track with the Df and would love to see them continue the series with an even more retro camera. I would love to see nikon remove the LCD and create an app to review images via wifi or hard connection through an iPhone, android or tablet. Menue functions could be set this way as well as reviewing images if desired. Next I'd like to see only analog controls like the F or F2. No buttons and nothing other than shutter speed and ISO with exposure compensation on the body. No AF at all and no G series lens capability. You could only use non AI and AI (s) lenses. Also, please Nikon, give us interchangeable focusing screens or at least a split image with microprism collar screen. This is a must! Next the camera would only shoot raw 14 bit. Ok you might be able to set it to shoot jpg through the app. The only LCDs on the camera would be a frame counter and info in the VF, shutter speed, ISO and F stop. If you want to take it farther give us a manual shutter wind and no motor.

Keep the basic Df design, small and light. Keep it simple! Let's keep the fantastic F4 sensor. What are your thoughts?
I'd also like to see them get rid of the LCD screen. And make it strictly a RAW camera. Take photographs as we did with film. Then go home and download your 'film' onto the computer to see your results... just like we did with film! By removing both the LCD and all the electronic processing features for in-camera manipulation of the image, couldn't the cost be brought down some as well? I'd love it.
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Old 01-05-2014   #19
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Let me start by saying Ive owned my Df for about a month and really like it. I have a particular fondness becaus I'm an old film guy and used Nikons for over forty years.

I feel Nikon is on the right track with the Df and would love to see them continue the series with an even more retro camera. I would love to see nikon remove the LCD and create an app to review images via wifi or hard connection through an iPhone, android or tablet. Menue functions could be set this way as well as reviewing images if desired. Next I'd like to see only analog controls like the F or F2. No buttons and nothing other than shutter speed and ISO with exposure compensation on the body. No AF at all and no G series lens capability. You could only use non AI and AI (s) lenses. Also, please Nikon, give us interchangeable focusing screens or at least a split image with microprism collar screen. This is a must! Next the camera would only shoot raw 14 bit. Ok you might be able to set it to shoot jpg through the app. The only LCDs on the camera would be a frame counter and info in the VF, shutter speed, ISO and F stop. If you want to take it farther give us a manual shutter wind and no motor.

Keep the basic Df design, small and light. Keep it simple! Let's keep the fantastic F4 sensor. What are your thoughts?
I'm all for removal of LCD screen, and being manual focus only, but the idea of having to plug into or using wifi to connect to a phone or something, crivvens, that sounds hellish.

I'm definitely for simplification of camera interfaces, but the idea of using a phone to control it instead seems to me to just be moving the complexity, not getting rid of it.
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Old 01-05-2014   #20
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I like the way I can work with this camera. I turn the LCD off, manual focus lenses, use the shutter speed dial and aperture ring just like the F, F2 etc. it's the same as any film camera basically. I don't use the wheels unless I have to use at lenses. My plan is to use MF glass on the Df and G glass on the D800.
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Old 01-05-2014   #21
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I think the DF2 would be great if they put ergonomically-positioned front and rear controls dials on a functional hand-sized grip and included a proper modern auto focus system equivalent or better than other cameras in its price range. It should have a durable weather sealed full metal body and fast, responsive performance, with a top LCD that takes the guesswork out of where the settings are.... It could keep the pre-AI lens mount from the current DF.

Then it would be faster than a D610 and less fussy than a D800, and ideally hit a price point in between.

They could always do some self-adhesive stickers and some Brass accessory knobs for styling/bling, perhaps add some more Instagram-type filters and a "slow" mode for nostalgia's sake and extra profit. Should be ready in about four years ;-p
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Old 01-05-2014   #22
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If a digital camera had no screen:

It would be difficult to tell if you are using the right memory card
It would be difficult to tell if the card is formatted.
You have no guarantee the card isn't corrupted.
You would need manual controls to format a card.

Digital files are far less forgiving than c41 and require much more specific exposure.
It just seems like a daft idea to me personally.
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Old 01-05-2014   #23
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Quote:
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If a digital camera had no screen:

It would be difficult to tell if you are using the right memory card
It would be difficult to tell if the card is formatted.
You have no guarantee the card isn't corrupted.
You would need manual controls to format a card.

Digital files are far less forgiving than c41 and require much more specific exposure.
It just seems like a daft idea to me personally.
Very well said. Totally agree on this. Especially re. the exposure. What a pain in the ass sometimes, even when shooting RAW only. Getting back home with a full card just to discover that the highlights are blown out on all your pics wouldn't be fun.

About the Df : sad (sort of) to see that some nice styling and minimalist yet complete and clever functionalities don't seem to be in sight on whichever digital camera Nikon made or is about to make.

The bug doesn't seem to want to leave the soup yet.

Anyway. No big deal.
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Old 01-05-2014   #24
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I think modern cameras have too big backside LCD's. They aren't meant to watch movies - to set camera and check exposure small LCD is enough.
My istD has a small one so there's enough space allowing 4-way control to be located more left, not on right where hand should be.
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Old 01-06-2014   #25
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I think the LCD has driven confidence away. Did you ever shoot transparency film? Latitude was very narrow especially with Velvia. The best you might expect with any transparency film was 1/2 stop over and 1 under.
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Old 01-06-2014   #26
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As to reformatting do it in the computer when you download or have a 2 button format option on camera but I think reformatting with the computer is a better option.
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Old 01-06-2014   #27
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For critical exposure situations an LCD screen is a hell of an advantage because as we all know once you blow the highlights with digital that's pretty much it! Reduce the size of it by all means but remove it entirely ... no thanks!
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Old 01-06-2014   #28
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I think the LCD has driven confidence away. Did you ever shoot transparency film? Latitude was very narrow especially with Velvia. The best you might expect with any transparency film was 1/2 stop over and 1 under.
I'm much more confident when I have a screen! IMO no meter can match a live histogram.
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Old 01-06-2014   #29
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I see your point but photographers make photographs not histograms...often breathtaking picture has totally wrong histogram and vice versa....we just have to know what we are after and expose accordingly. Histograms are for tourists (as from Ice Age)

p.s. of course I get what you mean, as well as there are no proper and wrong histograms, they are just a way to evaluate exposure.
but there's something too clinical, though.
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Old 01-06-2014   #30
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I repeat we didn't have a histogram with film and exposing transparency film is much more critical than a raw digital file. I'm not debating the LCD is a nice tool but it's not necessary if you have the confidence and skill to use your meter. The Df files are very flexible compared to film. Blow exposure with transparency film there's no recovering. Remember I'm suggesting if you want to check the histogram just launch your app on your phone and browse the card in camera. Hasselblad has phocus which is an app that allows that. I've used it many times with clients. Through wifi my client can view what I'm shooting, browse files and rank them as I shoot. It works great.
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Old 01-06-2014   #31
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Through wifi my client can view what I'm shooting, browse files and rank them as I shoot. It works great.


Can he also read what you're writing on RFF, browse your posts and rank them as you type ?
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Old 01-06-2014   #32
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Can he also read what you're writing on RFF, browse your posts and rank them as you type ?
No just files.

I tell my clients they can sit in the cocktail ounce and view what I'm shooting in another location. Really is a nice tool and makes clients very happy.
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Old 01-06-2014   #33
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I repeat we didn't have a histogram with film and exposing transparency film is much more critical than a raw digital file. I'm not debating the LCD is a nice tool but it's not necessary if you have the confidence and skill to use your meter. The Df files are very flexible compared to film. Blow exposure with transparency film there's no recovering. Remember I'm suggesting if you want to check the histogram just launch your app on your phone and browse the card in camera. Hasselblad has phocus which is an app that allows that. I've used it many times with clients. Through wifi my client can view what I'm shooting, browse files and rank them as I shoot. It works great.
You can also take sharp properly exposed slide film shots with a scale focussing hollowed out potato, without a meter, using the sunny 16 rule, while doing a handstand. OK. I'm being facetious, but you get my point. Generally I don't even have my histogram on (it's kind of distracting) but I'm glad I have it none the less, because there are some situations where it's useful.

I don't see the problem in being reliant on technology, the most important thing is being able to fully understand how the technology operates and master it - regardless of what it is. If things get "easier" it just means the bar should be raised higher. Personally I think it's great that these days near complete idiots can take technically perfect photos - it means that serious photographers can't just rely on technical expertise to set themselves apart, but are forced to think and develop their own vision as to what they're actually about.

Relying on autofocus, auto exposure, screens, and histograms isn't lazy, being uncreative is. How many excess features your camera is like a workman complaining he has too many tools - it should be the least of your problems.
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Old 01-06-2014   #34
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• Interchangeable focusing screens with a central focus aid (it can be done - the Canon 1D dSLR series had them)

• The 36 MP Nikon D800 sensor (because of its sensor, my D800E is the most versatile digital camera I've ever used, and I've used a lot, including Leica Ms, Hasselblads, and Canon and Nikon dSLRs).

• More integration of the analogue controls (esp. the shutter speed dial - 1 EV intervals only is RIDICULOUS).

• Less anal analogue controls (i.e. get rid of the "idiot" locks, so they can be adjusted while holding the camera to your eye without needing a third hand).

I was prepared to sell my D800E at a loss to buy this camera, but not when I saw what Nikon had created. Ignoring the sensor (which is a perfectly valid choice by Nikon so I can't really criticise this - but not what I wanted), the implementation of the analogue controls and optimisation for manual focus (none!) mean that the Nikon DF would be less ergonomic for me than my Nikon D800, despite my preference for knobs and dials!

In short, the Nikon DF is more of a style exercise than a tool aimed for serious photographers...

It won't happen, but I'd like the Nikon DF2 to truly be a camera for the working photographer - as efficient and ergonomic as a modern dSLR but with buttons and LCDs replaced by analogue dials with engraved scales. And there's no reason not to have video etc. Analogue controls do not mean a gelded camera!
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Old 01-06-2014   #35
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I've read a lot of complaints about the locking dials. I wonder if the people complaining have actually use or even handled the camera for more than thirty seconds. Yes the ISO and exposure compensation lock and require pressing a button to unlock. How often do you change ISO or even can change ISO while the camera is to ones eye. I'll have to look at my D800 but don't think that's possible. I don't use exposure compensation much because I work in manual most of the time but don't think exposure compensation can be changed while the cameras up to ones eye.

As to shutter speed, the only speeds the dial lock at are 1/3 step for using the thumb wheel, X and T. No other speeds lock.

If you think the camera is plastic take a look at Nikons illustration showing the magnesium alloy skeleton and see exactly how much metal is in it. The plastic around the lens mount appears to be nothing more than a cover. I believe the mount is anchored in metal. I seem to remember most of the plastic is the right hand grip. Even the D800 has plastic in it.

The one thing I agree with is we need interchangeable screens. My guess is if it's possible either nikon or a third party will offer them or a service to install optional screens. The stock screen isn't bad but it could certainly be improved.
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Old 01-06-2014   #36
De_Corday
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On the D200 through the D700, at least, (if I recall correctly) you can change ISO while the camera is up to your eye because the button is up top on the rewind side and works in conjunction with the command dial. ISO is displayed in the viewfinder.

That said, your point remains... I think I've changed ISO while composing maybe... twice?
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Old 01-06-2014   #37
CliveC
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I think it needs a LCD in the back, but it doesn't have to be as big.

My core suggestions would be:

Smaller
Cheaper
Closer to a FE/FM
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Old 01-06-2014   #38
Highway 61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
I believe the mount is anchored in metal.
No it isn't. It is anchored in plastic, just like on the D600/610.
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Old 01-06-2014   #39
DNG
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With all the things that many want to be taken away for the Df MkII

Why not take an junked D610 and put the sensor in a Nikon F3 HP body..
it should be a cheaper conversion than a new $3000 DSLR...
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Old 01-06-2014   #40
BLKRCAT
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Maybe Nikon should add more dials to replace the mass of buttons on the back
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