Has anyone noticed...
Old 11-15-2012   #1
seanbonner
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Has anyone noticed...

That the going rate of a used M9 on ebay is about a grand cheaper than a new ME? And arguably a better device?
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Old 11-15-2012   #2
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That warranty is a valuable thing.
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Old 11-15-2012   #3
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Going rate is closer to $1500 less from what I can tell.
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Old 11-15-2012   #4
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Since when are eBay prices rational?
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Old 11-15-2012   #5
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Since when are eBay prices rational?
When the benefit the buyer instead of the seller.
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Old 11-15-2012   #6
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Since when are eBay prices rational?
Ration doesn't have anything to do with it, it's a good gauge what people are paying - rational or not.

Which makes it interesting that the "stripped down" version of a camera is $1500 more than the non-stripped version. I'm not in the market for one, but if I was, that would be massive consideration for me.
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Old 11-15-2012   #7
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For me, for a product worth that much, I'd want the warranty.
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Old 11-15-2012   #8
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For me, for a product worth that much, I'd want the warranty.
But knowing that the M9 is still fully serviceable, what are the odds your possible repair will be more than that $1500 difference?
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Old 11-15-2012   #9
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You are comparing a used camera to a new one? Seems like apples and oranges.
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Old 11-15-2012   #10
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Originally Posted by seanbonner View Post
That the going rate of a used M9 on ebay is about a grand cheaper than a new ME? And arguably a better device?
aka the price difference between a new m9 and a used one plus the digital aging.
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Old 11-15-2012   #11
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If the market is fair (open, unmanipulated) then the market prices must be rational by definition. The market is also dynamic, so rationality is redefined on a regular basis.

So, how is eBay's M9 market irrational? Who or what is manipulating current prices such that they can not reflect the eBay buyers' and sellers' valuations? How are the manipulators subverting the supply and demand balance?
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Old 11-15-2012   #12
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Originally Posted by denizg7 View Post
aka the price difference between a new m9 and a used one plus the digital aging.
LOL ... tell my E-1 (built in October 2003) about this "digital aging" stuff. It still makes the same fine photographs it made when I acquired it at the beginning of 2008.

G
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Old 11-15-2012   #13
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LOL ... tell my E-1 (built in October 2003) about this "digital aging" stuff. It still makes the same fine photographs it made when I acquired it at the beginning of 2008.

G
I know! all i am saying is digital cameras get updated every 9 months unlike film cameras now days so the price has to go down..

in a couple a years there will be a new digital M and for the first time ever we will see the M8 go lower than a used M film camera

once i buy an m8 again it will be the only digital camera i will have for a very long time..
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Old 11-15-2012   #14
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"There are not many products that are so grossly overpriced than leica cameras, and yet so many people willing to pay the price for it if they had the money required readily available"
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Old 11-15-2012   #15
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"There are not many products that are so grossly overpriced than leica cameras, and yet so many people willing to pay the price for it if they had the money required readily available"
No viable alternative if you want a rangefinder focusing full frame camera might just be a factor in the market price equation

Over about three years, I tried the alternatives and then grudgingly paid up.
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Old 11-15-2012   #16
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Originally Posted by denizg7 View Post
I
in a couple a years there will be a new digital M and for the first time ever we will see the M8 go lower than a used M film camera
The price of used M7s and M8s is already close to parity; MPs get a premium over M8s.
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Old 11-15-2012   #17
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You are comparing a used camera to a new one? Seems like apples and oranges.
Not when they have the same specs.
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Old 11-15-2012   #18
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Originally Posted by denizg7 View Post
aka the price difference between a new m9 and a used one plus the digital aging.
"digital aging" only applies when old tech is replaced by new tech. Such as the M9 having a way better sensor than the M8, etc. But look at the M9 and the ME specs, they are near identical and have the same sensor, etc so it's basically the same camera on many levels.
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Old 11-15-2012   #19
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
If the market is fair (open, unmanipulated) then the market prices must be rational by definition. The market is also dynamic, so rationality is redefined on a regular basis.

So, how is eBay's M9 market irrational? Who or what is manipulating current prices such that they can not reflect the eBay buyers' and sellers' valuations? How are the manipulators subverting the supply and demand balance?
Hmmm... based on the assumption that buyers at an auction act rationally...
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Old 11-16-2012   #20
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Hmmm... based on the assumption that buyers at an auction act rationally...
$4000 M9s seem rational to me.
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Old 11-16-2012   #21
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How buyers act is rational by definition as long as the number of buyers is a large enough sample. Buyer always act in what they perceive to be their best interest.
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Old 11-16-2012   #22
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How buyers act is rational by definition as long as the number of buyers is a large enough sample. Buyer always act in what they perceive to be their best interest.
What people perceive to be in their best interest is not always rational. Look at the recent US election results. First, massive proportions of those who bothered to vote could see no rational reason for voting for the other candidate. Were both sides rational? Second, how many voted the way they did because "I've always voted ________, and that's easier than thinking about what's best or me or for the country"?

Then there's plain hysteria. Are you really telling me that the Dutch tulip bubble was rational? See Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. You can even download it for free from http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24518

Like most economic definitions, the concept of the rational purchaser does not survive even the briefest inspection or criticism.

Cheers,

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Old 11-16-2012   #23
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What buyers perceive to be their best interest at the time they buy may certainly seem irrational to others.

Of course, in hindsight, with all the information in hand, buyers' actions can be described as irrational. But at the time of the transaction, only irresponsible, reckless, intoxicated or mentally impaired buyers do not act (buy) in what they perceive to be their best interest. Even high-risk purchases, speculative investments for instance, are made after the buyer decides the risk is worthwhile.
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Old 11-16-2012   #24
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What buyers perceive to be their best interest at the time they buy may certainly seem irrational to others.

Of course, in hindsight, with all the information in hand, buyers' actions can be described as irrational. But at the time of the transaction, only irresponsible, reckless, intoxicated or mentally impaired buyers do not act (buy) in what they perceive to be their best interest. Even high-risk purchases, speculative investments for instance, are made after the buyer decides the risk is worthwhile.
That's pretty much what I was suggesting.Along with the certainty that many can be described this way.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 11-16-2012   #25
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The price of used M7s and M8s is already close to parity; MPs get a premium over M8s.
but isint the m7 and an mp same price new
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Old 11-17-2012   #26
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That the going rate of a used M9 on ebay is about a grand cheaper than a new ME? And arguably a better device?
i knew this would happen the second the ME was announced

it scuttled plans to sell my M9 to fund the Monochrom... i'll keep it now for colour.
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Old 11-17-2012   #27
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But knowing that the M9 is still fully serviceable, what are the odds your possible repair will be more than that $1500 difference?
Well, I guess chances are it won't need repair at all, but it's a psychological difference for me, that percentage of the sale price saving is not worth buying used for me.
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Old 11-17-2012   #28
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Well, I guess chances are it won't need repair at all, but it's a psychological difference for me, that percentage of the sale price saving is not worth buying used for me.
I think it's a real possibility, especially with earlier batches, cracked sensors, banding, white horizontal lines...etc. I actually benefited the most from the ME: I bought a brand new M9 with warranty from the official Leica dealer cheaper than what the ME will sell locally(it's not available yet).
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Old 11-17-2012   #29
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Not when they have the same specs.

Ok, you are comparing a week old apple to one still on the tree? Of course a used digital camera is going to be cheaper than a new one.
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Old 11-17-2012   #30
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That warranty is a valuable thing.
definitely ...
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