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Jollylook instant, another failed Kickstarter
Old 06-10-2019   #1
zuiko85
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Jollylook instant, another failed Kickstarter

Jollylook just posted what amounts to a 'kiss off' update. The will now send out rewards only if and when they sell product at retail. This means backers might as well give up, they lost whatever money the put into this turkey.

And a preemptive answer to any who say 'but Kickstarter is not a store'.

Well no, they are not a store. Bur KS project creators do state that if 'you give me this much money, then I will send this thing to you.'

I'm so done with Kickstarter, 2 out of 4 projects were total failures and of the other two only one delivered as promised.
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Old 06-10-2019   #2
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Having looked at a youtube video review I can think of better ways to spend sixty five dollars.
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Old 06-10-2019   #3
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yah well at least u didnt dump $400 into Reflex like I did!
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Old 06-10-2019   #4
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So they changed the terms AFTER people bought in under a different agreement? That's unethical in the extreme. I wonder if someone could get a charge back on their credit card on these kickstarter things and avoid this sort of stuff. If they don't deliver the product under the terms that they originally stated, I'd expect a full refund from my CC provider. If people are just gambling w/ their money, the casinos or a weekend poker game are safer bets.

I'm giving good odds on how long it takes Fuji to drop their "new" B&W films that they're introducing. You know, like they did w/ their other films?
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Old 06-10-2019   #5
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I looks like Freestyle is selling it.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/6001-...nt-Film-Camera
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Old 06-10-2019   #6
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Originally Posted by oftheherd View Post
I looks like Freestyle is selling it.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/6001-...nt-Film-Camera
Wow

I think that somehow unethical. I mean, people supported the thing and other are getting that on advance?
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Old 06-10-2019   #7
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Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
Jollylook just posted what amounts to a 'kiss off' update. The will now send out rewards only if and when they sell product at retail.
How does that even make sense? Very horrible way to start a company...
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Old 06-10-2019   #8
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How does that even make sense? Very horrible way to start a company...

The promotional video on their site says it all for me!
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Old 06-10-2019   #9
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Well, the website actually says:

"Straight to the news:

It turned out that we were too optimistic, after solving all the problems with production and setting it up, we don’t have enough money to buy film and continue shipping rewards in the planned quantities and time.

Although we were forced, as we wrote earlier, to sell some of the cameras, sales are not going as well as expected and do not provide sufficient funds.

Continuing to produce cameras and paying the production personnel is expensive. Today, after all what we went through, we are in a situation where we need to sell two cameras in order to be able to ship one reward to you, our backers. We really really really need your support and patience once again.

Many of our backers are angry and upset, and we can understand that, but this is Kickstarter. Making something new is always hard. Some projects will stall or change direction. Many will go on to impact the world in ways both small and large. When you back a project, you’re not buying something that already exists. You’re supporting a creator’s right to try to make that thing—and agreeing to go along for the ride. Our ride has been and still is very bumpy, but we won't give up.

We will be sending rewards in small batches every two weeks. The sooner we will be able to sell more cameras, the sooner we will be able to ship all the rewards. It is hard to predict how things will go at this moment.

We will continue to work very hard to fulfil our obligationsand will keep you informed.

All of you will receive your rewards!

We thank you for your patience and for sharing your emotions, even when some of you are unhappy with us.

Without you, this project would not be possible, and because of you, it is still going on and will succeed.

We will keep you updated on our progress.

THANK YOU!

Until next time,

The Jollylook team."

Seems to me that they are selling and shipping still... but made a decision that isn`t popular with their backers, but ultimately could get everyone their product while keeping the company in business. Now, has anyone really received a "reward" or is that BS? Seems to be the key.
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Old 06-10-2019   #10
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It looks like they're selling cameras - they are available from several online retail outlets.



I've been very careful about backing kickstarters because most seem to be run by people who don't know how to account for all the costs their project involves. The only one that hasn't delivered to me yet is Ferrania...
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Old 06-10-2019   #11
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Originally Posted by oftheherd View Post
I looks like Freestyle is selling it.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/6001-...nt-Film-Camera
Freestyle has been selling it for a year now!

https://www.thephoblographer.com/201...ring-problems/
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Old 06-10-2019   #12
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I've supported somewhere on the order of twenty Kickstarters over the past several years. 14 have delivered, 9 or 10 of those are darn good products. The others are meh, but they did what they promised: it just didn't really turn out as well as hoped.

5 are still outstanding and in process; 2 or 3 of them are nearing completion and should ship within the next month or three.

I don't invest in KS projects with the same attitude that I buy products online. I invest in a KS project because I think the project and the project team has merit and ought to get a chance. To me, it's a way to give entrepreneurs a bit of a boost, and I only do it with money that I can afford to see disappear. It's a way of giving back to (mostly) young people some of the support that was given to me as a young person.

When a project turns left in the middle of the process, I talk with the person or people running it. Most of them are well-intentioned and really want to get their project finished, and hope that the results are as cool as they hoped when they started it. Few are truly aware of just how much work it takes to really get a project from the idea to the physical object until they do their second or third project. I think they deserve a bit of understanding and patience if it's their first project...

G
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Old 06-10-2019   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
yah well at least u didnt dump $400 into Reflex like I did!
had to go look at this, although am vaguely remembering it. seems their estimated delivery varies from Dec 2017 to Aug 2018.
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Old 06-11-2019   #14
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I've supported somewhere on the order of twenty Kickstarters over the past several years. 14 have delivered, 9 or 10 of those are darn good products. The others are meh, but they did what they promised: it just didn't really turn out as well as hoped.

5 are still outstanding and in process; 2 or 3 of them are nearing completion and should ship within the next month or three.

I don't invest in KS projects with the same attitude that I buy products online. I invest in a KS project because I think the project and the project team has merit and ought to get a chance. To me, it's a way to give entrepreneurs a bit of a boost, and I only do it with money that I can afford to see disappear. It's a way of giving back to (mostly) young people some of the support that was given to me as a young person.

When a project turns left in the middle of the process, I talk with the person or people running it. Most of them are well-intentioned and really want to get their project finished, and hope that the results are as cool as they hoped when they started it. Few are truly aware of just how much work it takes to really get a project from the idea to the physical object until they do their second or third project. I think they deserve a bit of understanding and patience if it's their first project...

G
I agree with your assessment in the last paragraph Godfrey. I believe most KS project creators have good intentions. Trouble is that a common human failing is to just go silent when problems arise. Photo related hardware seems to have very high failure rate. I guess ‘Hardware is hard’ is a true fact.

On a different note, kickstarter could also be a lot more transparent about the risk involved in backing any projects. They should remove the ‘learn about Accountability’ on kickstarter and delete the ‘report this project’ field also.

These ‘feel good’ features on their site gives the unfounded impression that somehow they can influence creators to follow those guidelines.
The facts are that Kickstarter has absolutely no legal or otherwise ability to enforce their ‘terms of service’ and they should be upfront and honest about this. True, it would impact their business model....but there you are.
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Old 06-11-2019   #15
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yah well at least u didnt dump $400 into Reflex like I did!
Didn’t bite on that one. Didn’t like the design.
However have been logging in just out of morbid curiosity.
If I had an idea to produce a new 35mm reflex it would be dead simple.
Basically just tear down and copy a Ricoh KR5 and add DoF preview and top shutter speed of 1/1000. The PK mount is ok, still plenty of used Takumar and third party lenses out there.

Been following Film Ferrania and The Box is Back for the same reason, morbid curiosity, but didn’t back either.
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Kickstarter
Old 06-11-2019   #16
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Kickstarter

In the last 3 or 4 years I've looked at two photo-related KS projects requiring a commitment costing more than the price of a good lunch. The first was Lab-Box. As the completion dates slipped, I got a lot of razzing from friends for pouring $150 down a hole, but it now looks like a solid investment, soon to deliver in full. The other project was Reflex. After 15 minutes looking at their presentation and their KS financial goal, I (correctly) concluded that they would need at least 5 times the investment they were seeking to afford their goal. The Reflex folks are either poor crooks or so deluded that they had no hope of getting anywhere. The only surprise this that they have not yet declared an end to the project. IMO anyone who put money into Reflex needs a financial keeper.
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Old 06-11-2019   #17
Larry Cloetta
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Oh, for the days of real entrepreneurs who mortgaged their homes to finance their own company, to realize their dream of making widgets of their own design.

Having backed several Kickstarter projects, I do so with crossed fingers and some hope. Kickstarter is a novel and useful idea, but people who are playing with other people’s money never act the same way as people who are playing with their own, in any sphere of life. People behind Kickstarter projects, and people who have taken put loans and mortgaged their homes to bring a project to fruition, may both sincerely say, if the project is behind schedule, that “we are doing all we can”, but you can bet that those playing with other people’s money will be doing a lot less of it than the guy who will lose his home if the project fails. It’s just human nature.

Example, Jobs and Wozniak:

“To buy supplies to create the first products for sale, Wozniak sold his HP 65 Calculator for $500 and Jobs sold his VW bus for $750. With that working capital, a design for the product and a plan to sell units for $50 each, they expected to clear $700 after costs. On April 1st 1976 they drew up a partnership agreement for Apple Computer.

The audience at the Homebrew Computer club was not impressed when the Jobs and Wozniak presented their first printed circuit boards, but one person stayed afterwards to talk for a while. Paul Terrell had three computer stores and visions of building a national chain.

Jobs followed up with Terrell the next day. But Terrell wanted assembled computers, not printed circuit boards, to sell to end users, not tinkerers. He was willing to pay $500 each on delivery.

The new company needed $15,000 of parts to fill the order. Atari would only sell the parts for cash up front.

A bank turned the two scruffy guys down for a loan and another computer parts store declined an equity stake in the new venture. “Finally Jobs was able to convince the manager of Cramer Electronics to call Paul Terrell to confirm that he had really committed to a $25,000 order,” Terrell confirmed it and then Jobs got the parts on 30 days credit.

When after 30 days the computers were delivered and paid for, “Apple was on the verge of being profitable.”

In January 1977, Apple was valued at $5,309. By the end of December 1980, it went public for $1.79 billion.”

For what it’s worth, their idea was so vague they likely would never have been approved for a KS project.
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Old 06-11-2019   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarski View Post
had to go look at this, although am vaguely remembering it. seems their estimated delivery varies from Dec 2017 to Aug 2018.
They are now claiming delivery this August but I dont think they have a working prototype yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randy stewart View Post
...IMO anyone who put money into Reflex needs a financial keeper.
lol

One thing that soured Reflex is that instead of focusing on the dev of the camera they went off to make 40mm lenses instead. Which never was mentioned during the fund raising stage.
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Old 06-11-2019   #19
zuiko85
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post


For what it’s worth, their idea was so vague they likely would never have been approved for a KS project.
As long as they get their 5% (and that is collected off the top) Kickstarter will approve any project.
Really, what risk do they take on? If the project reaches it's goal, they get paid regardless of what happens after that.
Have you noticed that there is no 'contact information' on their website.
Has anyone who has used the "report this project to Kickstarter"
button ever received a verified, personal response to a complaint?
Anyone? Ever?
What a great business model. A guaranteed percentage of the take for every successfully funded campaign, and absolutely zero responsibility after that.
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Old 06-11-2019   #20
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Oh, so Kickstarter is now a bad guy. Really?

Come on. Kickstarter runs the servers and such to enable the promotion and all that. That costs money, and is why they get their 5% regardless.

I've never looked on Kickstarter as being anything more than a communications enabler. I take it on me to evaluate whether a proposal is worth my putting in a dime, and don't seek for some higher authority to approve or disapprove of a project.

G
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Old 06-11-2019   #21
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Oh, so Kickstarter is now a bad guy. Really?

Come on. Kickstarter runs the servers and such to enable the promotion and all that. That costs money, and is why they get their 5% regardless.

I've never looked on Kickstarter as being anything more than a communications enabler. I take it on me to evaluate whether a proposal is worth my putting in a dime, and don't seek for some higher authority to approve or disapprove of a project.

G
I do not question what Kickstarter is. I do question their "Terms of use" statement and their use of the term "Accountability on Kickstarter". The use of these terms gives the impression that somehow project creators are held 'accountable' for failure to meet the 'terms of use'. Reading section 6 of KS's TOS dispels such a notion but, then, why have a 'report this project to Kickstarter' on the campaign page.
I also do not question their 5% commission (plus bank card fees), which I believe is a reasonable payment for the services they provide.
I do believe however that they (Kickstarter) really need to be very brutal and brief when it comes to stating exactly who they are and what they do.

I rather think a better way may be for hardware/software project creators to just not offer rewards at all. To instead let backers who would like to see such a project through to completion decide how much they wish to risk. It would work like this;
1. Potential backers would be invited to 'invest', in $10 increments. So one backer may put in $10, another would be more confident and back the project for $30 while another would do $50. These backer amounts would entitle backers to a face value discount on the final product, if and when it is ever available.
2. It would be clearly stated that if the project fails, all backer proceeds would be lost, and no refunds will be made. Ever.
3. No estimate of delivery of product earlier than one year after funding period was completed would be allowed. For example, lets say funding for a project ended on June 30th. Then the earliest a project creator could estimate delivery would be July of the following year. In this manner, pie in the sky estimates could be avoided. And if, perchance the product is completed earlier than that....hooray.

I have no idea whether this idea would fly....but there would sure be a lot less misunderstandings between creators and backers in crowdfunded projects.

IOW, lower your expectations and you will be disappointed less.
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Old 06-12-2019   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
... lower your expectations and you will be disappointed less.
To be sure, I've never read the Kickstarter "terms of service" ... and never would unless I were going to start a KS project! ... as I feel they are completely irrelevant. I use KS purely because it's a site where I can find some interesting projects to become involved in. There are several others (indiegogo.com for example) that are also useful in the same way.

Your statement at top is the only absolute truth when getting involved in this stuff... And is so true for a lot of other things as well.

G
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Old 06-12-2019   #23
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Indeed. And now for something completely different.
How is it going with your modern instant magny. I see that B&H has the two pack of instax square for $18 now, so the price is softening a bit.
When/if they can sell for the same as the Instax Wide I’d be interested in that format because lenses made to cover 6X6 would probably be ok to cover Instax Square also.
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Old 06-12-2019   #24
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Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
Indeed. And now for something completely different.
How is it going with your modern instant magny. I see that B&H has the two pack of instax square for $18 now, so the price is softening a bit.
When/if they can sell for the same as the Instax Wide I’d be interested in that format because lenses made to cover 6X6 would probably be ok to cover Instax Square also.
The Instant Magny 35 is quite a nice piece. It would be more flexible if used with a metered SLR body ... a Nikon FM, for instance... vs a meterless Leica M4-2 just from the point of view of camera dynamics/ergonomics, but it works well with the Leica anyway. The ergonomics are the biggest issues because it is a largish thing hanging off the camera, but I have found I adapt pretty quickly. It also tends to work better with SLR wide lenses vs RF wide lenses because of the way the latter tend to be symmetrical designs that project deeply into the camera body and have wide angle of incidence off the center line of the frame. Even the WATE is mostly hopeless with it whereas the Super-Elmar-R 15mm produces beautiful results.

I haven't been shooting with it much lately because I've been concentrating on other things for a little bit, but I'll get back there soon.

Regard Instax SQ vs 6x6 ... The Instax SQ format is 62x62mm and Hasselblad's 6x6 format is 56x56mm. Hasselblad lenses would have no problem covering the entire 62x62 format but the back mounting gate on a Hassy body prevents that. The film processing unit for the Instant Magny 35 is an ideal base for a Hasselblad Instax SQ back ... it's compact, can be oriented correctly, etc.

I contacted the KS folks for the Instant Magny 35: they have no interest in producing a version for the Hasselblad V system. But I acquired another film processing unit from them, they were good for that. And I have a Hasselblad Polaroid back that I can use to scavenge the back mounting plate from. I haven't had time yet to go further, but once I have a little free time I'll measure up the film plane depth and see how much material I need to remove from the IM35 processing unit to achieve infinity focus. As long as I can get within about a mm, I can accommodate the difference with a second index mark on the lens's focusing scale to cover most situations other than critical focus at infinity (which is very very rare in my photography).

Fun stuff.

G

--- BTW, I' bought my most recent supply of Instax SQ and Instax Wide film from Amazon.com. $18.50 per two pack for both ... that's not bad for 20 exposures of instant film, under a dollar a frame. Even in Polaroid's heyday, the best price I was ever able to get on instant film for the SX-70 was around $0.80 per frame, and that was 25-30 years ago.
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Old 07-12-2019   #25
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On the jollylook KS community page it shows over 2200 backers from the US. I wonder if any US backer and RF Forum member has received one of the newer Ukrainian made cameras. And, if it worked. Quite curious to know.
Thanks,
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #26
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What a waste of money. First time I put into a kickstarter, and it's going to be the last.

After two years I'd pretty much given up on even receiving anything, but when it showed up a few weeks ago I bought a pack of Instax Mini and took it out to try.

Ever single shot way out of focus.

Turns out the film pack holder and transport mechanism is only held in place by the crank, and could move several millimetres either way.

May still put a pinhole in the front, seal the front up, and have it as a small box instax pinhole camera, but I'm not sure I can be bothered and might just toss it in the cardboard recycling.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #27
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I'm not sure why Kickstarter isn't scammed harder than it already is. People give you money without you having to deliver anything and the platform itself won't perceive
As long as you're reasonably social media savy some people will actually be happy to give you money on the basis they won't receive anything.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #28
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Lab-Box seems to doing very well in Asia. The last time I checked, it was sold-out and on back-order.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #29
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It looks like they're selling cameras - they are available from several online retail outlets.



I've been very careful about backing kickstarters because most seem to be run by people who don't know how to account for all the costs their project involves. The only one that hasn't delivered to me yet is Ferrania...
Likewise for me, fortunately of the 3 KS that I've backed 2 were successfully completed other than the eternal Ferrania.
I dont even remember the last time we got an update from them.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #30
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Likewise for me, fortunately of the 3 KS that I've backed 2 were successfully completed other than the eternal Ferrania.
I dont even remember the last time we got an update from them.
Go over to Photrio (old APUG). On the Ferrania thread, Dave Bias, of Ferrania, is an active contributor and gives frequent updates as to what is happening.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #31
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What a waste of money. First time I put into a kickstarter, and it's going to be the last.

After two years I'd pretty much given up on even receiving anything, but when it showed up a few weeks ago I bought a pack of Instax Mini and took it out to try.

Ever single shot way out of focus.

Turns out the film pack holder and transport mechanism is only held in place by the crank, and could move several millimetres either way.

May still put a pinhole in the front, seal the front up, and have it as a small box instax pinhole camera, but I'm not sure I can be bothered and might just toss it in the cardboard recycling.
I received mine and didn’t bother to waste any film in it. I extracted the developer module and lens and aperture wheel.
The developer module now sits in a plywood box with a hard stop, it’s register is fixed. I’ve mounted a 75mm f6.3 Novar in a Vario shutter from a Zeiss Nettar. Haven’t finished quite yet but will conduct tests in the next few days to determine where to position the lens for infinity focus. The lens has front element focusing by scale to 4.5 feet.
I’ll let folks know how it turned out.

The only reason I backed this KS campaign was to use the developing module in a home built camera.

Thinking back I should have just looked for a second hand Instax 9 and adapted a lens in shutter to that.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #32
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Kickstarter apparently does not care how much these failed campaigns affects their business model. Many potential backers burned by this sort of venture (myself included) will never return.
But, there does seem to be an endless pool of new ones to buy into the hype of crowdfunding.
Kickstarter could certainly be more honest on their site. They list “Terms of service”, and what the project creators are “required” to do. They also have a provision to “Report this project to Kickstarter”. All of this gives the false impression that they provide some sort of oversight to campaigns. They do not. In truth, in practical terms there are no consequences for creators who violate the terms of service and, as far as being ‘required’ to fulfill the promised rewards, there are limited legal remedies for backers.
Even if a backer or group of backers could obtain a monetary judgement against a creator in a small claims court, the backers would be responsible to collect that judgement from the project creator who may simply refuse to pay the judgement or perhaps be unable to pay.

So, what to do. Well, I believe Kickstarter should strike all language from their site regarding the ‘terms of service’ and creator ‘requirements’. Instead, be totally above board and inform potential backers of the real world risks of crowdfunding. That you must be prepared to lose your money either to non delivery of reward or the reward that is shipped will not live up to the promotion given it by the project creator.

Of course, this would never happen. At present, Kickstarter’s business model pulls in a steady and reliable income with little to no risk to them.

Oh well, they are not the only company out there to game the system to increase profits.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #33
c.poulton
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Age: 53
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I've tried. Most Kickstarter projects I've backed worked out just fine in the end. (My Lab-Box finally arrived a couple of weeks ago - well worth the wait and good communication throughout from the creators so no complaints - I just need to start using it!)

The one project that has fallen flat is NuBox, with over $22,000 pledged on the project the creator Robert Hamm appears to have just done a runner with no updates or other communication since April this year. Robert appears to be doing OK though with his wedding photography and YouTube videos.

The trouble with Kickstarter is that they have absolved themselves of any responsibility in regard to fraudulent projects. Failures I can kind-of live with if only the creators were honest with their backers, but this particular project leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #34
zuiko85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.poulton View Post
I've tried. Most Kickstarter projects I've backed worked out just fine in the end. (My Lab-Box finally arrived a couple of weeks ago - well worth the wait and good communication throughout from the creators so no complaints - I just need to start using it!)

The one project that has fallen flat is NuBox, with over $22,000 pledged on the project the creator Robert Hamm appears to have just done a runner with no updates or other communication since April this year. Robert appears to be doing OK though with his wedding photography and YouTube videos.

The trouble with Kickstarter is that they have absolved themselves of any responsibility in regard to fraudulent projects. Failures I can kind-of live with if only the creators were honest with their backers, but this particular project leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I didn’t back that particular project but have followed it out of morbid curiosity. Have you noticed that the physical location of project creators is always kept secret.
In these kind of situations it would be ‘interesting’ if a couple of suits showed up at their door some early Sunday morning. Or intercept them as they head to their car and have a little ‘conversation’ about ‘personal responsibility’ when you take peoples money.
With Guido on one side and Bubba on the other I somewhat think this fellow might find a way to quickly return money to backers.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #35
zuiko85
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Have not yet finished my project of using the Jollylook development module in a better camera, but have at least established the lens flange distance for infinity.
I know that such thoughts are useless but I keep thinking that for my $48 I could have bought 10 rolls of film from B&H.
That would actually be worth $48, this.....not so much. The
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