Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica M -- Leica CL / Minolta CLE - Film

Leica M -- Leica CL / Minolta CLE - Film This forum is about all things Leica CL and Minolta CLE, remarkable compact M film cameras

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Help! Should I Buy a mint CLE for $700?
Old 04-30-2019   #1
ryca
click
 
ryca is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21
Help! Should I Buy a mint CLE for $700?

Really need help. Been offered a mint Minolta CLE w/ 40mm F2 M-Rokkor for $US700. Cosmetically & functionally perfect. Itís a steal imo but should I really make the purchase? Iím paranoid about the CLE issues I keep reading about and donít want to pay for a camera that will in a couple years break down on me and be a paper weight. ANY advice appreciated!!!
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #2
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,461
Short answer - NO.

I've had loved cameras fail and spent ages on the phone discovering why no one will touch them. The longest answer went like this "stripping it down and then re-assembling might cost something like UK £200* and at the end it still won't work because the part is unavailable and no one will pay that for nothing".

And there's worse, you abandon the broken camera, buy a good one and find that the film is then discontinued... Thinking of my Conax Tix as I type that.

Buy a CLE for silly money or pocket money and you won't mind so much, they are nice cameras but...

OTOH, it's your money and I'll be as happy if you buy it or not.

Regards, David


* Probably £300 nowadays.

Last edited by David Hughes : 04-30-2019 at 02:06. Reason: finger trouble
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #3
ryca
click
 
ryca is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Short answer - NO.

I've had loved cameras fail and spent ages on the phone discovering why no one will touch them. The longest answer went like this "stripping it down and then re-assembling might cost something like UK £200* and at the end it still won't work because the part is unavailable and no one will pay that for nothing".

And there's worse, you abandon the broken camera, buy a good on and find that the film is then discontinued... Thinking of my Conax Tix as I type that.

Buy a CLE for silly money or pocket money and you won't mind so much, they are nice cameras but...

OTOH, it's your money and I'll be as happy if you buy it or not.

Regards, David


* Probably £300 nowadays.
thanks for insight @David... as silly as it seems, i'm still on the fence. $US700 mint is cheap compared to the offerings I've seen on feeBay... but it's in no way pocket money for me!! And yes understand exactly what you say about a loved camera fail -- my carry around, Ricoh GR1 (which looks mint and I handled like a baby) shutter just died... and finding someone to fix it down here is posing impossible.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #4
karateisland
Registered User
 
karateisland's Avatar
 
karateisland is offline
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
thanks for insight @David... as silly as it seems, i'm still on the fence. $US700 mint is cheap compared to the offerings I've seen on feeBay... but it's in no way pocket money for me!! And yes understand exactly what you say about a loved camera fail -- my carry around, Ricoh GR1 (which looks mint and I handled like a baby) shutter just died... and finding someone to fix it down here is posing impossible.
They’re great cameras, and that seems like a good price, but I tend to think we should approach these purchases the same way we approach gambling (because it is gambling, in a way!). You don’t know how long the camera will work for, so you shouldn’t spend any money you can’t afford to lose.

If it really worries you, and it sounds like it does, I’d say pass on it and get something within your comfort zone. You’re more likely to use it more often, and less likely to leave it at home.

That’s the reasonable answer. The other answer is that the heart wants what it wants, so you might want to get it anyway! If so, maybe save the extra money to get it from a shop like F-Stop Cameras—a good, reliable shop—for a little extra piece of mind.

In the end, it’s up to you whether the risk is worth it. No one else can make that choice for you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #5
CharlesDAMorgan
Registered User
 
CharlesDAMorgan is offline
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South East UK
Posts: 844
I'd take his arm off at that price with the lens, on the basis if it did go wrong the majority of the value is in the lens anyway, so your downside is less than you think.

I take much of what I read about camera problems on t'internet with a pinch of salt. The CLE is based on the XD7/11 etc and plenty of parts around for that.
__________________
Film amateur with a few rangefinders - Leica III, M2/M3, Werra 3 and Zeiss Super Ikonta 534/16 medium format.

Apart from that have a Rolleiflex 3.5F, the odd Minolta XD7, Hasselblad 500cm, a Topcon Super D and an Intrepid 5x4 large format (not the half of it but I am clearing them out, honest).

I do all my own black and white developing at home.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #6
karateisland
Registered User
 
karateisland's Avatar
 
karateisland is offline
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 169
Youíd have to find someone willing to repair it, though, I remember Huss had a problem with his and had a fair amount of trouble finding someone who would open it up.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #7
leicapixie
Registered User
 
leicapixie is offline
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto.Canada
Posts: 1,600
The 40mm Rokkor lens (or is it Leica ?) is worth something!
See prices and you could use it on real Leica-M.
The reputation of CL appears worse than CLE,
but cold comfort if irreparable..
All older Film cameras MAY break down, repairs uncertain..

I have either bought mostly SLR's or been donated.
Most are "walking wounded" with some features not working.
Yet film can be exposed and beautiful results.
I love look of images from Ricoh but the dead story has given immunity..
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #8
css9450
Registered User
 
css9450's Avatar
 
css9450 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,915
I'll buy it if you don't. Seriously. I'm assuming this is from a private seller, and not an auction site?
__________________
Nikon S2, S3, F, F2, F3, FM2, FA, N90S, D80, D7000, D750, Sony a6000, Canon IIf, Leica CL, Tower type 3, Zorki 4, Vito B, Perkeo II, Rollei 35....
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #9
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,295
40/2 CLE version price is 400. So, camera price is 300. 150 per year. It craps out after two years and you will sell it for 100 for parts. 100 per year. This is what you afraid of.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #10
ryca
click
 
ryca is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21
thanks everybody for the replies... i just bought it. yup indecisive one minute, gung-ho the next. lol

i've always wanted one... this body & lens was A+ condition and i thought, stuff it, i work damn hard so lemme treat myself. what also swayed me was, as a few of you mentioned, the lens is stellar and can be resold easily so not all that bad if any unfortunate circumstance arises (touch wood.. )

thanks again!
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #11
css9450
Registered User
 
css9450's Avatar
 
css9450 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
...a camera that will in a couple years break down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe.
It craps out after two years...

Call me crazy, but I bet it lasts longer than just two years.
__________________
Nikon S2, S3, F, F2, F3, FM2, FA, N90S, D80, D7000, D750, Sony a6000, Canon IIf, Leica CL, Tower type 3, Zorki 4, Vito B, Perkeo II, Rollei 35....
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #12
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
thanks everybody for the replies... i just bought it. yup indecisive one minute, gung-ho the next. lol

i've always wanted one... this body & lens was A+ condition and i thought, stuff it, i work damn hard so lemme treat myself. what also swayed me was, as a few of you mentioned, the lens is stellar and can be resold easily so not all that bad if any unfortunate circumstance arises (touch wood.. )

thanks again!



Well done, now enjoy it and forget what we said...


Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

CLE experience
Old 04-30-2019   #13
DennisM
Registered User
 
DennisM is offline
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 49
CLE experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
Really need help. Been offered a mint Minolta CLE w/ 40mm F2 M-Rokkor for $US700. Cosmetically & functionally perfect. Itís a steal imo but should I really make the purchase? Iím paranoid about the CLE issues I keep reading about and donít want to pay for a camera that will in a couple years break down on me and be a paper weight. ANY advice appreciated!!!
Congratulations on your purchase. For what it's worth, I have a CLE with the 40mm and 90mm Rokkor lenses, purchased new (body & 40mm) in 1986-87? Used intermittently over the years then not too much for the last decade or so. Had a CLA done in 2001, and was told that "no parts available, etc, etc" so essentially only door seals were replaced. Experienced the jumping diodes in the finder and learned that rotating the shutter speed dial back and forth multiple times would clean oxidation from the contacts; seems to have worked for me. I've been using mine more regularly lately (B&W film) and find it a joy to use. On a similar note, I have a Konica Hexar RF (purchased used) that exhibited erratic performance (rewinding in mid-roll, etc). Had a CLA performed recently prior to which I shared info from RFF posts with repairman that advised disassembling camera to the point where door seal contacts could be cleaned; not an inexpensive CLA, but camera now performs "like new." Bottom line, use it and enjoy it and rotate the shutter dial back and forth regularly.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #14
karateisland
Registered User
 
karateisland's Avatar
 
karateisland is offline
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 169
I love these "talk me out of buying this thing" threads because GAS (almost) always wins in the end. And I'm not being sarcastic--it's a testament to the power of cameras over our imaginations.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #15
olifaunt
Registered User
 
olifaunt is offline
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 248
Congrats. I bought a mint CLE+Rokkor a year ago, for significantly more than that. But even so I feel that it has already paid off in great pictures I've been able to make using it. It is a fantastic camera, and very very satisfying to use.

As for GAS, I feel like my CLE has made any other gear completely unnecessary. I don't even want anything else.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #16
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,605
I had two mint, perfect condition ones which jammed up.
Had bouncing leds etc too.

Bottom line is this.. they can be fixed. Both mine didn't need parts - even though that was the reason given that almost no-one would touch them. What they needed was a strip down and all the electrical connectors cleaned/deoxidized. This is just due to age.
If you can find someone to do that, no problem. Dave Easterwood was the only person I could find who would do that. His work was excellent and the price was very reasonable (under $200 IIRC). But it took forever with a lack of communication which was worrisome.

In other ways this is the world we live in. Very few people actually want to fix things. The majority just want to replace parts.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #17
CharlesDAMorgan
Registered User
 
CharlesDAMorgan is offline
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South East UK
Posts: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
As for GAS, I feel like my CLE has made any other gear completely unnecessary. I don't even want anything else.
I really wish you hadn't said that...I have to buy something more to cure me buying more....
__________________
Film amateur with a few rangefinders - Leica III, M2/M3, Werra 3 and Zeiss Super Ikonta 534/16 medium format.

Apart from that have a Rolleiflex 3.5F, the odd Minolta XD7, Hasselblad 500cm, a Topcon Super D and an Intrepid 5x4 large format (not the half of it but I am clearing them out, honest).

I do all my own black and white developing at home.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #18
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post

As for GAS, I feel like my CLE has made any other gear completely unnecessary. I don't even want anything else.
That's why I bought two of them.

Didn't work... I actually find these cameras too small, my finger keeps hitting the lens release button when I use them. And I only have size medium hands (going on my glove sizing)
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-30-2019   #19
Axel
Registered User
 
Axel's Avatar
 
Axel is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany, north
Posts: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
thanks everybody for the replies... i just bought it. ..

Congrats and good luck with the CLE!


Personally I wouldnīt worry too much about disfunctions or defects.
Compared to newer cameras the CLE is a very simple construct.


$700 is a great word and my opinion for CL and CLE is that they are "only" sheet metal cameras like many others in their time...
So my CL has gone, functionally, for less than 100 Euros a few years ago.
Hope it is still working and delivering good photos
__________________
my photos here
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2019   #20
Imagesfromobjects
Registered User
 
Imagesfromobjects's Avatar
 
Imagesfromobjects is offline
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 30
Do it.

I've had mine about three months and have put around 20 rolls through it. It's seriolusly the most fun camera I've ever owned, and just a dream to carry and shoot. Even if it craps out, it was a fun ride.

Lenses hold their value very well, and that lens is no slouch. If it's in good shape, and you get a year or two out of the camera.... what's there to lose? Re-sell the lens, cherish the memory and the photos forever.
__________________
One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz.

-Lou Reed
Flickr - Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2019   #21
Imagesfromobjects
Registered User
 
Imagesfromobjects's Avatar
 
Imagesfromobjects is offline
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryca View Post
thanks everybody for the replies... i just bought it. yup indecisive one minute, gung-ho the next. lol

i've always wanted one... this body & lens was A+ condition and i thought, stuff it, i work damn hard so lemme treat myself. what also swayed me was, as a few of you mentioned, the lens is stellar and can be resold easily so not all that bad if any unfortunate circumstance arises (touch wood.. )

thanks again!

Oops! missed this - congrats!
__________________
One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz.

-Lou Reed
Flickr - Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2019   #22
Imagesfromobjects
Registered User
 
Imagesfromobjects's Avatar
 
Imagesfromobjects is offline
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I had two mint, perfect condition ones which jammed up.
Had bouncing leds etc too.

Bottom line is this.. they can be fixed. Both mine didn't need parts - even though that was the reason given that almost no-one would touch them. What they needed was a strip down and all the electrical connectors cleaned/deoxidized. This is just due to age.
If you can find someone to do that, no problem. Dave Easterwood was the only person I could find who would do that. His work was excellent and the price was very reasonable (under $200 IIRC). But it took forever with a lack of communication which was worrisome.

In other ways this is the world we live in. Very few people actually want to fix things. The majority just want to replace parts.

By any chance, are you AKA Desmolicious? If so, howdy!

To echo what you said - full disclosure here - I got my CLE for a scant $250 from a super honest seller on the auction site. He was forthright about the dancing LEDs, which was of zero consequence to me, as I intended to shoot full manual anyway. I've been wanting one for years now, finally said F it and jumped. It's already paid for itself in pictures and pure enjoyment, as far as I'm concerned.

However, while waiting for the camera to arrive, neurosis set in and I began scouring the web for info on where to take it if something *should* need to be repaired, and... yep. Nada. The fella you mentioned.... maybe it was your post, but someone mentioned him going AWOL with their camera for a long stretch of time, and that frankly doesn't work for me.

Started trying to hunt down a manual... also NADA. I posted here, maybe came off like a jerk... I dunno.... but nobody was able or wllling to offer anything besides the TWO EXISTING ARTICLES on the web re: repairing this camera. Oh yeah, one of the articles is in French, btw.

So, the camera gets here, I pop in some new batteries, and it is FINE. Fast forward a little while, though, and the rangefinder starts going out of whack. Like, wayyyyy out of whack. I open it up as per the articles and do my impression of someone who should be trusted with sharp objects, let alone fine machinery, and by some miracle get the rangefinder SOLID.

Three days later, it's slipped again. Oh well.

So, now I've just taped over the rangefinder patch and use it in scale focus mode, mostly with a 21 and 28. Not ideal, but still fun and still manage to snag some keepers. The line about "walking wounded" is beautiful, btw.

Maybe someone will post some better instructions on basic CLE repairs, here's hoping.

Anyway, enjoy your camera, I certainly love mine.
__________________
One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz.

-Lou Reed
Flickr - Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2019   #23
BernardL
Registered User
 
BernardL is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 132
Warning: provocative post ahead.

So I have this Minolta Hi-Matic 7SII with 40/1.7 Rokkor. Is one of my favorite take-out cameras (together with Oly 35RC and Retina IIa). I paid 20€ for the Hi-Matic. In what ways is it inferior to a Minolta CLE with 40/2 Rokkor? Yeessss, fixed lens. But we know that Real Photographers use a single focal length... (urban legend, btw)

Admittedly, the 7SII, last-of-breed of Japanese rangefinders, does not feel very substantial, esp. compared with a 60's era rangefinder. But it does the job.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #24
leicapixie
Registered User
 
leicapixie is offline
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto.Canada
Posts: 1,600
Enjoy!
The 40mm lens is great, the body neat.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #25
olifaunt
Registered User
 
olifaunt is offline
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardL View Post
Warning: provocative post ahead.

So I have this Minolta Hi-Matic 7SII with 40/1.7 Rokkor. Is one of my favorite take-out cameras (together with Oly 35RC and Retina IIa). I paid 20Ä for the Hi-Matic. In what ways is it inferior to a Minolta CLE with 40/2 Rokkor?

Seems like a nice camera, but shutter speed only up to 1/500th, compared to 1/1000th for the CLE. This matters for photographing moving subjects, so the Hi-Matic would not be as good a street camera if that is the use case.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #26
olifaunt
Registered User
 
olifaunt is offline
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagesfromobjects View Post
However, while waiting for the camera to arrive, neurosis set in and I began scouring the web for info on where to take it if something *should* need to be repaired, and... yep. Nada. The fella you mentioned.... maybe it was your post, but someone mentioned him going AWOL with their camera for a long stretch of time, and that frankly doesn't work for me.

I've learned the hard way - unless you absolutely can't work around what might be wrong with the camera, don't send it in. They will ruin it; I can guarantee it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #27
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardL View Post
Warning: provocative post ahead.

So I have this Minolta Hi-Matic 7SII with 40/1.7 Rokkor. Is one of my favorite take-out cameras (together with Oly 35RC and Retina IIa). I paid 20€ for the Hi-Matic. In what ways is it inferior to a Minolta CLE with 40/2 Rokkor? Yeessss, fixed lens. But we know that Real Photographers use a single focal length... (urban legend, btw)

Admittedly, the 7SII, last-of-breed of Japanese rangefinders, does not feel very substantial, esp. compared with a 60's era rangefinder. But it does the job.
Very nice camera.

Advantages of the CLE:

CLE has Interchangeable lenses
CLE has the best 28mm frame lines out of any RF camera that I have used.
CLE has greater shutter speed range - 8 secs (about) to 1/1000 vs 1/8 to 1/500
CLE - Much more sensitive light meter (spd vs cds)
Greater film speed range - 7sII only is 25-800
CLE reads slower speeds' exposure from film plane
CLE has OTF ttl flash readings vs manual or flash sensor on flash itself
Super sensitive lower pressure shutter release vs old skool plunger on 7SII
Meter on 7sii is always on in auto mode
View finder is tiny and dim on the 7sii vs the large clear and bright on the CLE
Design defect that allows the vf on the 7Sii to haze up easily.
Lower aperture readouts obscured in VF of 7sii
7sii needs to be recalibrated to run on modern batteries
Self timers very fragile on the 7Sii
Rangefinder base length shorter on the 7Sii

Advantages of the 7sii:

Cheap
Mechanical - does not need batteries to fire.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #28
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
I've learned the hard way - unless you absolutely can't work around what might be wrong with the camera, don't send it in. They will ruin it; I can guarantee it.

Dave Easterwood fixed my broken CLE.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2019   #29
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagesfromobjects View Post
By any chance, are you AKA Desmolicious? If so, howdy!

Hi Lou!

Best
Huss/Desmolicious
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2019   #30
Imagesfromobjects
Registered User
 
Imagesfromobjects's Avatar
 
Imagesfromobjects is offline
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
I've learned the hard way - unless you absolutely can't work around what might be wrong with the camera, don't send it in. They will ruin it; I can guarantee it.
Fair enough.

Thing is - I *can* work AROUND the wonky rangefinder by just using it in scale focus, but it would be nice to fix it properly. The other day I shot a roll with the CV 40/1.4 this way and it actually worked out fine, but I was careful to keep the aperture above f/4 and subjects >1.5m away. Would be great to get closer and open up wider, but not wise without a calibrated rangefinder.

http://justinlow.com/articles/repair-minolta-cle

...Is a good tutorial on opening up the camera.

http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/Minolta_CLE.html

...gets more into the rangefinder, but I'm 99% sure they have the screws identified improperly, and I'm not positive how to engage/disengage the "lock" in order to adjust the horizontal alignment. I have a few emails in to a few different folks, so hopefully some kind soul will advise.

In the meantime, I'm still shooting it daily, so it's obvoiusly not a deal-breaker for me, just would be nice to DIY it, since the professionals won't.
__________________
One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz.

-Lou Reed
Flickr - Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-20-2019   #31
ryca
click
 
ryca is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21
hi all. just want to follow up saying thanks again. received the CLE and its an absolute treat to shoot with. cheers for swaying me over the line... so stoked! here's some pics from the first 2 test rolls: https://imgur.com/a/XhdWmGv


  Reply With Quote

Old 05-21-2019   #32
olifaunt
Registered User
 
olifaunt is offline
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 248
Great pics. It's a very pleasurable camera to use indeed.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:46.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.