Old 10-28-2018   #361
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,927
Thought for a moment I was in a Facebook thread.

"I blame Trump!"
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #362
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,355
I thought you had written "I blame the Thumb (grip)"!
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Reactive, Proactive or No Support At All
Old 10-28-2018   #363
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,293
Reactive, Proactive or No Support At All

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35photo View Post
Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...
Well, that distinction is not necessarily an achievement.

Did Leica have a choice?

Let's review:
  • The M9 sensor assembly has an inherent corrosion issue. Leica silently replaces them for free. Customers are unaware there is an inherent design flaw. This benefits customers and Leica.
  • As time goes on, more and more customers have this problem.
  • At some point Leica informally blames customers for improper sensor cleaning methods. This may not have been a widespread practice.
  • Then Leica decides to end, or limit, the M9 replacement policy.
  • The press and social media react.
  • Leica reverses the policy.

If Leica had not reversed the policy, their reputation would suffer. It is possible they would have to settle class action lawsuits. In the end, the economic consequences from refusing to remediate a basic design error (using a IR filter film that reacts with water vapor) could be higher than fixing the problem for free. A reactive policy was terminated. Then a proactive policy solved the problem. The customers and Leica benefit.

A M9 sensor cracking issue was much less common and was also solved with an internal policy of free replacement. Similarly, dead pixel columns are addressed via firmware for free. Leica also offers reasonable upgrade options for customers with M9 sensor assembly issues. These are also proactive policies.

Consider Nikon.

For about a decade customers had to pay extra for Nikon's proprietary post-production software to completely correct Nikon lens deficiencies. Third-party software platforms offered reverse-engineered solutions. In some cases these worked as well as Nikon's, in some cases they didn't, in all cases some corrections were not available. Customers had to buy the lens and then pay extra for software to correct optical issues. Also, it was very rare for Nikon to improve product firmware or add new features via firmware updates. This benefits Nikon in the short term.

Consider Canon.

Magic Lantern created a successful business selling firmware that adds features to Canon cameras. The Canon firmware is not modified or replaced. Separate firmware interacts with the Canon system in-camera. To benefit from the full potential a Canon DLSR's hardware, customers had to buy and install third-party firmware. Canon makes no effort at all to benefit customers.

Neither Nikon or Canon reacted to customer needs. I think this is much worse than a defensive, reactive strategy.

Consider FUJIFILM.

FUJIFILM uses a proactive Kaizen (literally 'change-good') approach. When a new body or lens is first release they are 'good'. When problems are solved or new features are added via free firmware updates, they become 'more good'. Customers benefit, so FUJIFILM benefits. Interestingly, Kaizen has been criticized by potential customers who claim ]Kaizen does not help customers at all. Instead, FUJIFILM customers are abused because they beta-test FUJIFILM products for free.

I prefer Leica and FUJIFILM's approaches.

Is it bashing to point put Nikon and Canon's customer neglect?
__________________
Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form.
Garry Winogrand
williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #364
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
And how about you? Any compliment or discussion of Leica brings a snipe about how they've mistreated you, personally, over and over and over again.

Me thinks the pot is calling the kettle black here. If it's "as simple as that", well, you can stop your bashing and I'll enjoy a bit less vitriol on the forum. We can each reside in our separate realities and use whatever equipment we like.

G
Agree G. This is a point I made in an earlier thread. To continue you could change a few words and go into any camera specific forum and find the same type of attacks on a new camera. When a company comes out with a new model there are always those that wont be happy. Not enough this or too much of that or it's too expensive etc.

de leon you say that the M 10 is 5 times more is wrong. The M 10 should be compared to the price of other top of the line cameras from Nikon or Canon and the price of the M 10 is a little more but I remember when Leica M was more than double the price of the top of the line Nikanon.

As far as the technology if one doesn't jump off of that gadget go round you will be buying new cameras every 6 months and most of those gadgets are not going to make better photographs. In fact here is a great quote by Weston made well over a half century ago:

"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

So if one is changing equipment with every upgrade you certainly never spend enough time with it to master it.

We get it de leon. You have a real bone to pick with Leica and probably for good reason. No company can be 100% to all. And we have seen this over and over again in most every Leica thread here. We get it. You had a real issue. And I will agree that Leica's service needs work. A lot of it. And I have had cameras there for months on end.

In fact if it is a mechanical thing like focus adjust Don at DAG gets my business. But does your complaint need to always show up in almost every Leica thread? Maybe you should be sending Leica Germany as many complaint letters and you do posts here. I mean if you de leon really want to change things complaining here might not be the best venue. Again we get it. I got it fully after the second time I read your complaint.

In my opinion a much better away to address this here. Maybe it would be start a thread with your complaints and send a link to Leica of the thread.

I have 4 Leica M digitals and have had a lot less problems with them than I ever had with my Canons. I had a complete shutter failure while doing work for NATO in 2012. I had many other issues with Canons but I will say that CPS is a wonderful service but if that service is with a camera you don't work well with then it is kinda of a dead issue. Does anyone remember mirrorgate with Canon (the mirror would just fall out off the camera) ha ha. Every maker has had issues.

Having said that I can only think of how great a company Leica could be if their service was stepped up to a level of say CPS.

I am a full time pro and as one we never have just one camera body. You learn early in your career that you need backup for the backup so it is usually several bodies. I will be getting another M 10 (not the P or the new M-D) and that should be it until I finally retire in a few years. The M 10 is everything I need in a camera.

That's it from me because this is running in a big circle that will never end. Anyone that wants to continue the conversation can PM me. But with Leica M I finally had a digital alternative to everything else out there. I am glad that the M 10 is 24mps. I am glad that it doesn't have video. I really like the ISO dial. It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create. Many aren't going to like it and that's fine. If the way you see and work needs more from a camera then there are plenty of those options out there. But again it is nice to have a real digital alternative. And if you don't like any of Leica's offerings or have huge issue with service don't buy Leica.

And willie pointed it out May 2. 3 times and move on. When it shows up all the time it is more than pointing out a problem.

I am out.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #365
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
de leon you say that the M 10 is 5 times more is wrong. The M 10 should be compared to the price of other top of the line cameras from Nikon or Canon and the price of the M 10 is a little more but I remember when Leica M was more than double the price of the top of then line Nikanon.
It's an apples to oranges comparison. The M10 is a $2000 camera with a $6000 rangefinder mechanism. If you want a rangefinder, it the only game in town and the extra $6000 is worth it. If not, well, there are a lot less expensive alternatives. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #366
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,457
Yep my money my choice and there are plenty more just like me. Again I choose Leica M because Leica M fits the way I see and work period. I can buy WHATEVER camera I need to do my job, my work pays for it all, and that's what I choose because as I said before it gets out of my way.

Again Leicas have always been EXPENSIVE. You need to get over it. Cameras shouldn't be like buying a car. The one with the most stuff isn't always the best value especially if it doesn't work well for you.

I get it. You want bells and whistled galore and there is nothing wrong with that. You have a lot of those out there already Buy one. And if you are mad that Leica is so expensive maybe one of the big two or someone else might see the market that Leica has found.

Canon and Nikon have been losing market for several years now and Leica has been gaining. Who's doing what right? Is it the Nikanons with all the bells and whistles that keep separating the photographer farther and farther from the process? Looks like maybe not.

Those cameras are clearly not for me and on that I am really out.

Again if you want real discussion instead of an endless circle then PM me.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #367
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
Well, that distinction is not necessarily an achievement.

Let's review:

A M9 sensor cracking issue was much less common and was also solved with an internal policy of free replacement. Similarly, dead pixel columns are addressed via firmware for free. Leica also offers reasonable upgrade options for customers with M9 sensor assembly issues. These are also proactive policies.
Leica asked me to send payment of $500 a month ago to cover the expenses for repairing dead pixel columns. They did not suggest a (free) firmware fix for it.
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #368
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 947
Quote:
We get it de leon. You have a real bone to pick with Leica
Like I said many x's before..I really don't give a sheeit...as I don't own a digital Leica..no bone to pick here..unless I think about the lens they ruined..went in for gratis service mint..came back w/polish marks..I saw them do it right in front of me..couldn't believe it..so careless they are..
But this is all just just internet talk..so no need to get polarizing about it..
For some Leica is a sacred cow..and just don't want to hear anything more about it..for the negative..even if the truth..
So they attack the messenger..
But there are way more people here that have a bigger bone to pick w/Leica than I do..real $$ spent..and bailed as fast as they could..ran away..
Not their fault for the problems..fault was 100% Leicas..but they believed the myth..and ponied up..only to be disappointed..
I didn't invest thousands in the bodies..lenses yes..but not bodies..and I'm thankful for that..so I luv Leica lenses..but not their service record for their bodies...so I stay away..to avoid problems..if that is a bone to pick..well so be it..
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #369
JeffS7444
Registered User
 
JeffS7444 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 155
IME (at least up until 2011) new Leica products were more likely to need at least some after-sales support than any other make that I have owned. I hope this situation has since improved. But I were to buy a new Leica product today, I'd want it unbox it and give it at least a cursory examination before leaving the store (does camera body power up, do lenses focus properly etc) whereas with other brands, I'm more confident that a product in an unopened box will be fine.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #370
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,342
As Godfrey says "My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo."

Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.

As for the thumb rest; if I need one for the right hand then why not for the left hand? And why not a little bulge or two on the front to nake them easier to grip? The digital range could have moved in a different direct as the IIIa moved to the IIIc and the Barnaks moved to the M's...

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #371
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
As Godfrey says "My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo."

Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.

As for the thumb rest; if I need one for the right hand then why not for the left hand? And why not a little bulge or two on the front to nake them easier to grip? The digital range could have moved in a different direct as the IIIa moved to the IIIc and the Barnaks moved to the M's.
Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #372
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,927
Every camera manufacturer has had issues from time to time. Sure, it would be ideal if no manufacturer ever had any warranty problems, but it's just not realistic to expect that. Oftentimes issues aren't discovered until there are many units in the field, with no amount of alpha/beta testing revealing such problems.

It's the support after the issue is found, and how quickly they are resolved, that separates the brands.

Leica, being a premium brand with premium prices, should have premium support with ultra-fast turnaround.

Leica has exhibited poor support, with outrageous lead times, and poor communication. In my case, I even had one of Leica's largest dealers pushing on them from behind the scenes, and a minor problem with a Leica Q that was promised a 3 week turn, ended up taking 8 months. I wonder how long it would have taken without the dealer leverage?

Leica quality control has also been suspect, ranging all the way from loose strap lugs (!), to ISO switch failures, and many others that have been well-publicized in recent years. Not to mention the long-term issues mentioned above regarding the M9 sensors.

The so-called 'pro' brands set the service/support standard, and Leica should be *at least* as good as those, if not even better, considering their position in the marketplace.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #373
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
The so-called 'pro' brands set the service/support standard, and Leica should be *at least* as good as those, if not even better, considering their position in the marketplace.
The service department in Wetzlar seems adequately staffed and responsive. Leica just doesn't want to make the investment for the North American market.
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #374
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
...
Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.
One of the impressively responsive ways that Leica improved the CL was with firmware 2.0 when they put a "disable all controls" toggle in as a long press on the left dial's button; only the shutter release and the toggle button stay active. Without that, I am constantly tweaking something or other as I walk holding the camera, and then having to correct what I tweaked. With that, I can set up the camera to do exactly what I want, lock it, and carry it all day without accidentally changing a setting. I can also unlock it in a second to adjust anything that needs adjustment. It makes the CL as ergonomic to use as the M-D, for me.

G
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #375
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.
Alas, not one of mine does and I can't afford to replace them all just for something that may not exist on the replacements.

OTOH it's a good idea; my worst moment was whan an icon like a fish swimming in a tank appeared because I'd touched the wrong part of the camera. Meaning I ought to carry the instruction manual with me all the time; not that fish icon is indexed...

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #376
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,542
Just a point to add here regarding the service availability of Leicas. When I bought my M240 new here in Oz it had an issue with the shutter speed dial that I noticed almost immediately. When I contacted the seller I was told that I needed to return the camera to them and they would forward it for repair and I could expect to be without it for approximately six weeks.

That's a pretty hard pill to swallow when you have just paid close to eight grand (AUD) for an item. And before anyone accuses me of being a repetitive whinger who loves to bash Leica this is the first time I have mentioned this here at RFF. It didn't make me like my M240 any less than I do but it did make me wonder what would happen if I had encountered a similar issue with a high end Nikon or Canon.
__________________
---------------------------
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #377
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,957
I agree: that's a hard thing to have to deal with.

However, If I noticed an issue like that "almost immediately", I'd take the camera back to the dealer and exchange for another one. Any Leica Store would do that, most other good Leica dealers too. Still a PITA, but defectives happen no matter what the product in question.

My most recent experience with a reasonably high-end Nikon (the D750) in 2015-2017 went like this: I get the camera and a week after I get it, there's a recall from Nikon for a problem they've found that surfaced in the shutter/mirror mechanism. Mine is one of the ones afflicted, I go through their registration process, and send the camera off. It's returned three weeks later. I didn't use it much, since in the meantime the Leica SL had been delivered, but seven months later there was another notice in my inbox that another fault had been found and I had to send the Nikon in for rework again. It came back in two weeks this time, but the sensor was filthy. I called and complained, they sent me the shipper to send it back for a redo and cleaning. Four weeks later I had it back, and it seemed to work well. I sold it two weeks later.

I'm not thinking this is typical Nikon, but quite seriously I've had more issues with Nikon, Pentax, Canon, and Sony equipment than with Leica. And the turnaround times have been just about identical for those occasions when I needed Leica service vs all of those. The only company I can say I've gotten significantly better service with is Olympus ... who did a complete overhaul and service of my E-1 a full four months after the service program for the E-1 camera was supposed to have been closed down, and they did it for a flat rate of $185 plus shipping. That was in about 2013 or 2014, for a 2003 digital SLR camera that had been superseded twice in their pro line, which is pretty amazing.

G
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #378
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,542
I was hoping that would happen Godfrey but this was a large photography outlet carrying multiple brands. That said I would have expected them to contact Leica in Oz and say hey let's just give this guy another camera! No such damned luck unfortunately! lol

I think we put up with quite a lot from Leica because we genuinely love their cameras and rightly so ... they are unique.
__________________
---------------------------
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #379
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I was hoping that would happen Godfrey but this was a large photography outlet carrying multiple brands. That said I would have expected them to contact Leica in Oz and say hey let's just give this guy another camera! No such damned luck unfortunately! lol

I think we put up with quite a lot from Leica because we genuinely love their cameras and rightly so ... they are unique.
When my M-E failed a couple of months into ownership - I bought it brand new - there was no offer to exchange it for another.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #380
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,172
FYI I had the shutter recall with my Nikon D750. I got it back within a week.
When the AF failed on my F6, I got that back in 2 days, fixed. Admittedly I was able to drive to their service center in Los Angeles, but that still is an excellent turn around. And that is w/o having the pro membership.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #381
Guth
Observational Documenter
 
Guth is offline
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 136
Not speaking specifically of Leicas, but have cameras in general become more problematic / less reliable than those of 30+ years ago?
__________________
My RFF Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #382
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guth View Post
Not speaking specifically of Leicas, but have cameras in general become more problematic / less reliable than those of 30+ years ago?
I don't have any reliable statistics to report. However, none of my modern cameras have really needed any service at all unless they had a defect on delivery or I damaged them by accident. Back in the day, nearly every camera needed maintenance now and then.

My overall impression is that modern cameras have far fewer problems than ones made thirty years ago, despite being orders of magnitude more complex. Of course, those thirty plus year old cameras now nearly all need maintenance: I've spent much more restoring and servicing my old film cameras in recent years than I've spent on anything with the new ones other than the cost of buying the new ones.

G
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2018   #383
PKR
Registered User
 
PKR is offline
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post

Snip
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

Snip
I am a full time pro and as one we never have just one camera body. You learn early in your career that you need backup for the backup so it is usually several bodies. I will be getting another M 10 (not the P or the new M-D) and that should be it until I finally retire in a few years. The M 10 is everything I need in a camera.

I am glad that the M 10 is 24mps. I am glad that it doesn't have video. I really like the ISO dial. It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create. Many aren't going to like it and that's fine. If the way you see and work needs more from a camera then there are plenty of those options out there. But again it is nice to have a real digital alternative. And if you don't like any of Leica's offerings or have huge issue with service don't buy Leica.


I am out.
"It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create.."

I don't think many understand this concept. In the time I've been on this forum, I've always spoken of cameras as tools ...that gets (you, me and some others) what we see, the way that we see it, recorded .. without getting in the way.

A camera has to be easy to see through and record (accurately ?) images the way we like them recorded, as easily and effortlessly as possible. If the camera I choose breaks more often than i might like, i own more than two of them. It's work stuff for making images. The images are what's important. When i worked as an assistant to a NatGeo photographer long ago, he had 7 Nikon bodies in his kit. He used one most of the time. The repair shop was far away. I remember Bill Allard packing 6 R6 bodies. They failed a lot but, he liked the way Leica lenses rendered color. So, he dealt with the trouble.

We who work with cameras as tools, see them differently, I guess. We ask different things from them and, if they deliver, we're tolerant of problems..within limits.

Buying a new camera is a PITA because, i have to know it inside out. And, that takes time and isn't fun. Mastering a new digital camera is a lot of work. It takes many weeks to know it. Months to have experienced all the quirks. Once you know it well, it's no longer in the way. Lenses are the same.

There is a dependence on our hardware that most others don't experience.

I fully understand your thoughts on the topic and am in agreement with you.

Edit: I read that David Harvey isn't shooting RAW any longer. He's using JPGS out of the camera, with little or no post adjustment. He's got his camera (XT-2 i think) dialed. He says it's like the Kodachrome days, he using the camera's image processor to do the work. He can concentrate on making photos without much, if any, post.

I want to be able to do that too.
__________________
The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera. Dorothea Lange
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #384
Guth
Observational Documenter
 
Guth is offline
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I don't have any reliable statistics to report. However, none of my modern cameras have really needed any service at all unless they had a defect on delivery or I damaged them by accident. Back in the day, nearly every camera needed maintenance now and then.

My overall impression is that modern cameras have far fewer problems than ones made thirty years ago, despite being orders of magnitude more complex. Of course, those thirty plus year old cameras now nearly all need maintenance: I've spent much more restoring and servicing my old film cameras in recent years than I've spent on anything with the new ones other than the cost of buying the new ones.

G
It's no surprise that those older cameras are needing much more service and attention these days. But you've gotten to the heart of the situation. I thought perhaps the issues Leica faces with poor service and support are as much of a reflection of the complexity of the cameras of today as it is problems with Leica itself as a company. I'll admit that I am surprised to find out that newer cameras are actually more dependable with fewer flaws than cameras of a few decades ago. Thanks for the response.
__________________
My RFF Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #385
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,342
As PKR says "Buying a new camera is a PITA because, i have to know it inside out. And, that takes time and isn't fun. Mastering a new digital camera is a lot of work. It takes many weeks to know it. Months to have experienced all the quirks. Once you know it well, it's no longer in the way. Lenses are the same."

And I'll add my 2d worth; up to a vague point in the 90's you knew where you stood with a camera regardless of the make. That was mostly because they more or less all behaved the same and might just have one little quirk but not dozens of them. So getting to know them wasn't too hard on us. I'm talking about serious cameras by the way, not fully auto P&S's.

My guess is that at some point they stopped being designed by photographers for photographers with the electronic people brought in to do something like a jobbing gardener. And then - horror - the computer people started to take over the design and it went the way of some software with everything possible thrown in, whether it was wanted or not.

As for the earlier ones, they were simple mechanical things that needed maintaining because of wear and tear but little else.

Anyway, that's just my 2d worth.

Regards. David
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #386
Yokosuka_Mike
The Beat Goes On
 
Yokosuka_Mike's Avatar
 
Yokosuka_Mike is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Age: 64
Posts: 1,860
I'm thinking
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #387
Sumarongi
Registered Vaudevillain
 
Sumarongi's Avatar
 
Sumarongi is offline
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
And then - horror - the computer people started to take over the design and it went the way of some software with everything possible thrown in, whether it was wanted or not.

As for the earlier ones, they were simple mechanical things that needed maintaining because of wear and tear but little else.
Thank you, David -- I absolutely agree.
I've just started another thread so to say looking at this very topic from the opposite side:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for....php?p=2844446
__________________
**Any feature is a bug unless it can be turned off.** (Daniel Bell Heuer's Law.)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #388
Yokosuka_Mike
The Beat Goes On
 
Yokosuka_Mike's Avatar
 
Yokosuka_Mike is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Age: 64
Posts: 1,860
Mic Drop Moment?

I am a full time pro... blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah... what?

*** is such a Mic Drop Moment about this POS camera?

A stupid shutter lever that dosen't do anything.

Back to my X-Pro2 and A7II.

Mike

Ps, can't believe that they sensor "***" here.

Okay maybe I've had a few glasses of wine... maybe I'm having a bit of fun too
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #389
sc_rufctr
Leica nuts
 
sc_rufctr is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 1,202
It's good to see some passionate discussion in this thread.

About the dummy lever...
I can see the ergonomic benefit and a lot of people will think you're using a film camera.

but I'm trying to imagine the discussion at Leica when this was first proposed.
__________________
Peter

Adelaide, South Australia
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #390
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Leica asked me to send payment of $500 a month ago to cover the expenses for repairing dead pixel columns. They did not suggest a (free) firmware fix for it.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

With CCD photodiode arrays a single dead photo-diode site can render a whole column unreadable.

I must say I am unable to understand how to repair dead pixel columns without replacing the entire sensor assembly.

Sensor remapping via firmware is commonly reported. But this is not a repair. The defective photodiode(s) is remain(s) defective.

Some report mapping and other report replacement.

On a Forum that may not be named here, six months ago someone wrote:

"... the fix is simple and free. You send a DNG file to Leica, and they send you a custom firmware file, which will remap your sensor and get rid of those lines. Each remapping will make your sensor one row of pixels narrower (the lines for some reason are always vertical), but this is really no big deal."
__________________
Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form.
Garry Winogrand
williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #391
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 7,172
Quote:
"It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create..".
But is it?
Full control means being able to achieve the results that you want.

With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images.

What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #392
35photo
Registered User
 
35photo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
But is it?
Full control means being able to achieve the results that you want.

With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images.

What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
Learn thy tool, it will set you free..
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #393
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images. What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
If you know what you are doing, you don't have to check after every shot. Of course, if you don't know what you are doing, then reviewing your images will tell you when you have screwed up. I don't use the rear screen for anything other than changing menu settings, which is a rare occurrence. And sometimes for live view when working on a tripod.
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #394
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,457
I just keep getting sucked back into this ha ha.

Does anybody read what I write? I said that I doubt I will get this camera (M 10 D). I was referring to Leica M digital rangefinders like the MM and M 10. They fit the way I see and work. I have no idea of what working with the M 10 D or the M 262 MD is like because I haven't shot with one but I did shoot film exclusively until late 2005. And I have shot both professionally and with my personal work with probably more different formats and and cameras than many have so I know what works for me.

For my personal work it has been for quite a while street work so I usually only have one shot and that is usually measured in fractions of seconds. All I can say is knowledge and experience are the key. Bresson referred to it as a developed instinct and that is one part of that developed skill. Shooting transparency film for a couple of decades really helps with the discipline of nailing exposure.

For me and the way I have worked over the decades it is much easier for me to not have any decisions being made by the camera. It is just the way I work and have worked since I started photographing seriously. It is second nature and working with cameras that I pick up and don't have to even think (like breathing, the technical part is just second nature) and Leica M is that for me. Might not be that for others but that is what I refer to when I say it just gets out of the way and lets me create.

And I worked with DSLRs for over a decade and I NEVER had that experience with them. They were never second nature to me like say a 500 C/M, fully manual Canon F-1, film Leica M or large format.

We are all more comfortable with different tools. My choice comes from experience and what is best for me. That may or may not be the case for someone else. Thats why having choices is in my opinion so important. And for me and the way I see and the way I work now at this point in time the Leica M digital is the tool I prefer to work with because for me it gets out of the way. It is second nature when I use it.

Shoot with the tool you need to shoot with. I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate it is the work that matters. Find tools that make it easy for you to create. I have. But I love how so many think they know what would be best for me and how i work. I do appreciate the concern but my choice was not a choice made from ignorance. Just like I'm sure others have made their choices from trial and error. So go make some photographs and use whatever tool you are comfortable with. Hopefully it is one that gets out of the way and lets create. So lets all gp out and make some photographs.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #395
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,927
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
So lets all gp out and make some photographs.
Indeed.

Much more fun than discussing levers and repairs.

  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #396
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Indeed.

Much more fun than discussing levers and repairs.

YES it is.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #397
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,342
If we don't dicuss it, some other camera maker will go one better and bring out a digital camera with a fake film advance lever and a fake rewind knob and a battery compartment under the fake rewind knob for a battery that looks like a reloadable cassette...

And there are people who think I'm joking; it's worrying.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #398
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
...
Does anybody read what I write? ...

I have no idea of what working with the M 10 D or the M 262 MD is like because I haven't shot with one but I did shoot film exclusively until late 2005. ...

For me and the way I have worked over the decades it is much easier for me to not have any decisions being made by the camera. ...

...lets all go out and make some photographs.
Yes. And I agree to the max to be accounted for permitting some individual variation in preferences. :-)

Working with the Leica M-D typ 262 is essentially the same as working with an M4-2 (adding: the ability to change sensitivity on a frame by frame basis, a built in meter with the option of Aperture AE, auto-winder with up to two fps continuous operation, and a self timer); or an M7 with the autowinder. There are no camera configuration possibilities other than setting the date and time, and the above standard controls. The M-D only creates DNG files, and has only AWB, so all rendering decisions other than ISO, aperture, exposure time, and focus are up to you and your preferred image processing environment.

I feel very much the same way. Most of what I spend my time doing whenever I have a new camera nowadays is figuring out how to lock down all the automation so that it operates like the M-D does: simply, with me using the meter to guide my setting the exposure, focusing, etc. Doing all that is so natural to me nowadays that when I turn on an automation camera and it starts doing stuff like focus and metering evaluation, etc, by itself, it distracts me from seeing my subject.

And yes: enough of posting to this thread. I'm picking up the camera and going out now. :-)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #399
PKR
Registered User
 
PKR is offline
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
I just keep getting sucked back into this ha ha.
Snip
Shoot with the tool you need to shoot with. I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate it is the work that matters. Find tools that make it easy for you to create. I have. But I love how so many think they know what would be best for me and how i work. I do appreciate the concern but my choice was not a choice made from ignorance. Just like I'm sure others have made their choices from trial and error. So go make some photographs and use whatever tool you are comfortable with. Hopefully it is one that gets out of the way and lets create. So lets all gp out and make some photographs.
"I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate(ly) it is the work that matters."

I think this is the root of the argument. And, I believe it's the great divide among the mass of "photo people" both on this forum and with the public.

Years back, Paolo Pellegrin was using cheap Olympus 6mp digital cameras. I think they had a fixed zoom lens. They constantly crapped out so, he packed 6 of them around, taking several into the field. I remember him being criticized for using such a cheap camera. He said, they work for me and weigh little. They break often under my work conditions (conflict and other) so, i pack several. I wonder if all his critics looked at the pictures he made with these cheap plastic cameras?
https://www.magnumphotos.com/photogr...olo-pellegrin/

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympussp500uz
__________________
The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera. Dorothea Lange
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2018   #400
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 45
Posts: 19,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by PKR View Post
Years back, Paolo Pellegrin was using cheap Olympus 6mp digital cameras. I think they had a fixed zoom lens. They constantly crapped out so, he packed 6 of them around, taking several into the field. I remember him being criticized for using such a cheap camera. He said, they work for me and weigh little. They break often under my work conditions (conflict and other) so, i pack several. I wonder if all his critics looked at the pictures he made with these cheap plastic cameras?
https://www.magnumphotos.com/photogr...olo-pellegrin/
It'll always be easier to buy more stuff than to learn to make compelling images. However, we have numerous examples of people using less to make great work. We have even had a few great books made with early iPhones (EARLY not now).

It is always a great reminder to think of these people and look at the work.

These days many would make you think that you need an F1 lens and an array of lenses from 8mm to 1000mm, ISO 102,000, FF or larger sensors, and IBIS in order to do anything. If anything, I am going backwards... everything is pretty damn nice these days, so I will most likely never buy an expensive new camera again... I'll just wait a year or two and buy used. That said, I do have a passing interest in what a project was made with... simply for the times when the equipment is less than expected.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:53.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.