Old 10-26-2018   #321
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Allen.
I have a lot of Leicas. A lot... and a lot of Leica glass. But until Leica fixes their service dept I will keep bashing them. Because they suck beyond belief. And they deserve bashing after they lied about their lifetime sensor replacement policy on the M9 series.
There are lots of owners out there who are now facing a $1000 bill because of this.

So yeah, as long as Leica keeps in its current ways, I'll keep harping on them. You think they'd change anything if people just stayed silent? It doesn't work like that.

A new camera with a fake rewind lever. Lame. Give me a service dept that lives up to their once lofty standards and all will be forgiven.

Fat chance, eh?
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Old 10-26-2018   #322
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The wind lever is a triviality.

The less-than-poor service is unforgivable for a premium brand, or even a low-end one.

I have lots of film Leicas but won't ever buy another Leica digital (bought 2 of them new.)
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Old 10-26-2018   #323
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Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I realise that many people take this Leica bashing as personal but the people who do so need to remember that many of us who use and love our Leica gear are pretty offended by some of the stuff they do. The door swings both ways!
It sure does. Leica USA has always done me very well in service and information, and I've been doing business with them for forty years.

I know what they've done on my behalf and I won't participate in bashing them. It wouldn't be much of a "rangefinder forum" any more if Leica wasn't around.

G
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Old 10-26-2018   #324
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Allen.
I have a lot of Leicas. A lot... and a lot of Leica glass. But until Leica fixes their service dept I will keep bashing them. Because they suck beyond belief. And they deserve bashing after they lied about their lifetime sensor replacement policy on the M9 series.
There are lots of owners out there who are now facing a $1000 bill because of this.

So yeah, as long as Leica keeps in its current ways, I'll keep harping on them. You think they'd change anything if people just stayed silent? It doesn't work like that.

A new camera with a fake rewind lever. Lame. Give me a service dept that lives up to their once lofty standards and all will be forgiven.

Fat chance, eh?
I had a chance to talk with some of execs from Germany last Oct. They were here in Chicago and I voiced my concerns about my service issues. They seem to know about a lot of the issues. They did say that it was going to be a priority moving forward. I haven't had to send anything to Leica since I spoke with them so I don't know if there have been any changes. Now whether they do anything or not is yet to be seen but spewing on a forum I don't think does anything. But I do agree that something needs to be done about service. But I say harp to Germany not on some forum.

I think everyone knew about the time limit on the sensor replacement. How could they keep it open ended? I know I had both my M-E and MM in to have it done before time ran out. Both working just fine now.

BTW I got to meet and talk with Costa Manos for a while last Oct and he has 2 M 10s.
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Old 10-26-2018   #325
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You are right Airfrog, I agree ... it does get old but will it ever change?

Not a snowball's chance in hell in my opinion! lol
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Old 10-26-2018   #326
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The wind lever is a triviality.

The less-than-poor service is unforgivable for a premium brand, or even a low-end one.

I have lots of film Leicas but won't ever buy another Leica digital (bought 2 of them new.)

I like the M10-D. I find the faux wind lever of questionable value.

Leica's service has been hit and miss over the years, ranging from agreeable to abysmal. The two times I have had to send an M camera to Leica NJ, I was fortunate; LNJ was in agreeable mode both times.

Leica M cameras and lenses are solid and reliable; it should be Leica's #1 intention to make their service and repair solid and reliable, too - both in the U.S. and in Wetzlar. Leica M users deserve nothing less.
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Old 10-27-2018   #327
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I had a chance to talk with some of execs from Germany last Oct. They were here in Chicago and I voiced my concerns about my service issues. They seem to know about a lot of the issues. They did say that it was going to be a priority moving forward...
So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.

Regards, David
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Old 10-27-2018   #328
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You could easily guess that an administrator of the Leica Forum would find the fake wind lever "affectionately humorous", no? I read another review referring to the fake wind lever as "charming". Charming? Kind of says it all.
I remember the initial response and defense of the M8's IR contamination problem to be much more telling.

A dozen years later Leica's credibility has declined to the point where even Leica proponents freely offer criticism.
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Old 10-27-2018   #329
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So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.
It hasn't really paid off. There is still only one tech for North America. I'm sure they got the feedback through the repair department and not through the forum.
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What Have You Done For Us Lately?
Old 10-27-2018   #330
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What Have You Done For Us Lately?

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What I really find funny is how the same Leica haters always show up and just keep kicking the dead horse. ha ha. Don't like it don't buy it but if a fake wind thumb rest gets your panties in a bunch then there a few more issues in your real life you might need to address. Buy the M 10 instead. If you like a true rangefinder you will not be disappointed.
Rational criticism is not hate. Respect should be earned.

The M10 is an excellent camera. Except for the Type 262 – which happens to one of the highest performing camera with a 24 X 36 mm sensor area – it's the best digital M camera Leica makes. (1)

Every camera with a mechanical-optical rangefinder is a "true rangefinder".

1. Only the Nikon D5 and a few of the newest SONY bodies have about 1/3 stop more sensitivity. The M-262 and M10 have the same maximum dynamic range.
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Old 10-27-2018   #331
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Rational criticism is not hate. Respect should be earned.
But that's how the defenders pitch it. That or jealously. Attack the messenger instead of the message.
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Old 10-27-2018   #332
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Post 278 and many others are real rational and real criticism.

And go back and read through old posts and the same people are at it all the time. And it could be about anything and it always comes back to all Leica makes now are cameras for dentists and posers.

I'm not sure whether I like the wind thumb rest or not. I have never shot with the new camera. I personally don't like thumb rests but that's personal and I probably will not be getting this camera. I do get the 262 M-D and why some like it.

My argument all along has been no one else is making cameras like the M 10 or the MM and if you don't like don't buy it. Some not liking the thumb rest is a legit complaint but I'll bet there will be some out there that do like it. But I'll bet there are those that will not say anything because of the way any words against what is being deemed laughable or opposition to those comments like Leica is just for posers, dentists or rich folks is met with attacks. All one has to do is go back and read.

There are those that for some reason and it's usually the same folks that are either mad that Leica's are expensive (but they have always been expensive) or the issue with service and we all understand the issues with service. It has been addressed a lot of times here and shows up in almost any digital Leica camera post and I keep hoping that Leica will do something. I think if you actually write a letter to Germany and everyone that has had issues with service would do that maybe there could be a change. That will not keep me from picking up another M 10 before years end.

I have both the M 10 and the M 262 and the M 10 files have much better high ISO performance over the 262 and is a lot more responsive. That doesn't mean I don't like my 262. I will probably keep it until it dies and I can no longer get it repaired.
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Old 10-27-2018   #333
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Leica M10-D looks like a harmless bit of frivolity intended to generate additional M-system sales, and this sort of thing exists because people crave novelty (and it can be profitable!). I'm not the target audience: If I were to buy a new M-camera today, a standard-issue M240 or M10 would be my preference because I want Live View and built-in LCD.

You (not addressing anyone specifically) want Leica to devote more resources to targeting "serious" shooters? Haha, I doubt that market segment buys nearly enough new gear to keep them afloat. Be thankful the M-system exists at all.

I agree that the older CCD cameras (speaking specifically about the M8 and M9) were beta-quality, and selling mine proved a royal pain because would-be buyers were so fearful of anything which seemed like it could even remotely be interpreted as a sensor issue. And knowing what I do in late 2018, I would steer potential buyers towards one of the newer CMOS models.

In retrospect, I figure M8 and M9 ownership was a good training exercise for when I become fabulously wealthy: Doesn't matter how much you paid, life's not perfect, sometimes you'll still need to queue up behind others for assistance, and said assistance will have it's limitations.
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Old 10-27-2018   #334
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So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.
Regards, David
Hasn't paid off at all. Back when I was shooting full time and used an M8 and M9, their service was awful. I spoke to them about it at length and that was before the corroded sensor era. I sold my M8 then sold my M9 in 2012 and had the chance to speak to Dr. Kauffman in 2013. I mentioned reliability and service and he made a quip about next time I am in Iraq, maybe I'll shoot with an S2. No chance in hell of that. So I was ignored in 2010, 2012 and 2013 (and I was one of the poor working photographers who loved the marque and wanted desperately to be able to shoot with Leica but needed RELIABLE gear and good service.) I hadn't spent more than $50k on Leica gear but I was trying to be loyal. The Fuji X100 and Nikon D2 simply worked better, more reliably.
So no, it hasn't paid off. It has gotten worse from my following the developments in their cameras their target market and their service.
I tried for years but had to pull the ejection handles.
That is why I complain and will continue to do so. Because $11,000 is a lot of damned money for a working photographer and hopefully what I say will either help move the company to take better care of their customers or help young emerging photographer peers to not waste their money and time.

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Old 10-27-2018   #335
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That`s very disappointing Phil.
To actually speak to Dr Kauffman and be brushed off like that with no attempt to sympathise/apologise but instead to make light of your predicament.
That speaks to a company that doesn`t really care and I must admit I never really considered that might be the case.
I had some sympathy with them before ,although I did think they had their priorities wrong and should have placed more resources into repair and maintenance , but now I think that perhaps they`re just winging it.
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Old 10-27-2018   #336
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Thanks Phil for sharing.

I'll pay for quality in a product or good service.
I want to buy an M10, but I'm waiting till I'm convinced at least one of the above is covered...
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Old 10-27-2018   #337
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A company that does not stand behind their products after the sale... with good service...well...
You decide..
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Old 10-27-2018   #338
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A company that does not stand behind their products after the sale... with good service...well...
You decide..
Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...
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Old 10-27-2018   #339
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Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
...
I'm not sure whether I like the wind thumb rest or not. I have never shot with the new camera. I personally don't like thumb rests but that's personal and I probably will not be getting this camera. I do get the 262 M-D and why some like it.
As I reflect on this M10-D and all the various forum threads I've read about it, it occurs to me that the M10-D is a bit different in concept and notion from the M Edition 60 and M-D typ 262.

The M Edition 60 was a commemorative special to honor 60 years of the Leica M. The attempt was to build a special that was as close to an M3 was in its minimalistic essence as possible. As a very limited run, special edition, it was never expected to sell many units at the very elevated price for a complete package, and of course it was likely considered to be purchased mainly as a collectible and used rarely.

But the minimalistic camera concept was so appealing to many who might have bought such a body at a lower price that it inspired Leica to make the M-D typ 262. Now that camera was a much easier to develop "take a 262 standard production body, remove all but the minimums in configuration, remove the LCD and all the now unnecessary buttons and controls—much like the ME60—for those that wanted such a camera and who meant to use it like they would any standard production camera. The M-D sold well for a special, and a limited feature model, but the draw in this day and age is features and the M-D lacks many features that the market seems to not want to let go of.

The M10-D at its essence is much more a standard M10-P model, with most of the M10-P feature set, lacking only the LCD and associated button controls necessary to configure all the inner workings of the M10-P. The crux of the user experience gained by a camera without LCD, buttons, and setting distractions is thus achieved, and all the settings functions of the M10 are deferred to an app that communicates with the body when reconfiguration is desired, or review of images in storage is required. But the notion isn't the minimalism posed by the ME60 or M-D262, the notion is a full featured camera that doesn't have the issues that LCD and button controls crowding the surfaces of the body pose, and the distractions thereof.

As I've said before, I am very glad I have the M-D262. If I buy another M as companion to it, I can accept the M10-D, or M10-P, or M10 all of them from this perspective, and probably prefer the M10-D because I'll find its less cluttered body easier to hold and more familiar to me. It's closer to the M camera paradigm that I've lived with for most of my life.

However, the "thumb rest" will still have to go. I was out shooting with the Leica R6.2 today and tried leaving the lever out and using it as a thumb rest. Then I pulled out my M4-2 and tried it with that. Sorry, it doesn't work for me at all: it just gets in the way. Ten minutes with a Dremel Moto Tool and it's history.

G
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Old 10-27-2018   #340
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To me with the M10D and the 262 MD its all psychological and philosophical and it revolves around that screen.. I have had an M6 for the last 10+ years and an M9 for the last 5 yrs or so... With the M9 I literally treat it like the M6... in the field I just shoot never go to the screen after a shot in the field... I'll bracket when I think it the scene needs to be as I know the M9s limitations pretty well... I'm too focused with what is going on around me to worry about the last image.. I rarely switch lenses in the field again its a distraction moments in time are important... I'll just move myself and get creative with the composition rather than switching lenses... M-10, M10-P is all you really need I think... This M10D is more nostalgia based... although I do like the WiFi with the Fotos app which is slick.. not a new thing but for Leica M it is which breaks away from the old guard so to speak in a way...
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Old 10-27-2018   #341
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I guess Leica offering a camera with no LCD screen and a faux wind lever is similar to what some car manufacturers do. The VW Beetle, the Fiat 500 and Mini come to mind and they are all a deliberate move to tap into a market driven by nostalgia. Triumph motorcycles use fuel injectors on some models that mimic the appearance of early Amal carburetors. The bottom line is if you don't like this approach you don't buy the product but as consumers we are free to criticise what we don't like as often as we desire and if that's seen as bashing I'll live with that!
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Old 10-27-2018   #342
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I'm not interested in this camera, or the M-D, from the point of nostalgia at all.

My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo.

I can train my fingers to work around the obstructions, like I have with other small cameras, but it's a bit of an annoyance to have to do so when I really have no use for that stuff on a regular basis.

The M-D with its philosophy of minimalism, no LCD, and very few buttons is the most nearly perfect digital camera I've owned. But there are things that I could do with a Leica M if it had the Live View and other features that make the M-D a great "primary" but require I have a "secondary" that fills in on the missing functionality.

That's why I bought the CL. I needed a body that has TTL viewing for use with my Leica R lenses and that would work well for my close-up and macro copy endeavors. I wanted the 24 Pixel sensor. And, as it turned out, the smaller format actually nets some advantage.

If the M10-D had been available when I bought the CL, it would have been a tough decision between the two. It wasn't, the CL is a lot less expensive, and the CL has worked out very nicely for my needs. I don't really need another M body.

However, there's always the "maybe it would net another benefit" just to have the M10's FF body with TTL ability to utilize my R lenses on their original format. These lenses are so excellent, and they perform so well with Leica's lens profiles on the M-P and SL, it seems a shame not to have the tools required to keep them in use on a FF body.

So you see, there's no nostalgia in that at all. If I want to enjoy a little nostalgia, I just pull out my Leica M4-2, my Hasselblad SWC, my Leicaflex SL, etc, and take some photos. I don't buy $8000 digital cameras on the basis of faux nostalgia, I'm not wealthy enough for that.

The thumb rest simply doesn't work for me, that's why I want it gone.
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Old 10-27-2018   #343
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Well, I heard about this camera with a "fake film advance lever" and figured I would stop by after a lengthy break from the forum to hear what people are sayin'...

I share the view of somebody else (forget who now): the M-10 is such a capable platform, it's rather pathetic to do something like this to it. "Cheesy" was used and I agree. Alas, maybe I just take everything too seriously...

The right approach would have been:
1.) Use the extra space from the screen to reduce the body size further
2.) Put the ISO adjustment on the back.
3.) Use the same controls as my film MPs
In other words, really optimize the product and profit from the decision to remove the screen. That would be a non-frivolous exercise and be worth the price. Just tacking on a fake film advance lever really doesn't justify the cost in my opinion. (Want to keep those suppliers honest...)

Just a note: I am not a Leica basher. My 2 MPs and M8 were all bought new from Tony at PopFlash and I use and enjoy them. I really am waiting for an optimized M10 along the lines described above. Until then, looks like I keep shooting with what I have...
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Old 10-27-2018   #344
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Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...
Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..
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Old 10-27-2018   #345
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Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..
"You doth protest too much."
  • I give not one miniscule darn that Leica is allegedly "5 years behind" when they produce the best photos I've see out of any of the 30 some odd digital cameras I've owned in the past 18 years.
  • I know they didn't knowingly sell anything defective.
  • I don't have any idea, other than the rumors I read here, how many technicians they have in their shop. All I know is that every time I've sent a Leica M, X, or whatever to Leica USA in New Jersey, my needs have been fully taken care of within four weeks. (1x for a digital M, 1x for an X, 8x for film Ms, 2x for R bodies, 12x for M and R lenses over forty years.)
  • Leica USA has serviced M and R lenses and bodies for me that were out of date by as much as fifty years plus, when no one else would even take them in.
and so forth.
G
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Old 10-27-2018   #346
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Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..
You have ZERO proof that they knowingly sold defective cameras... Give some solid evidence to support that claim...Otherwise its a totally reckless statement... Like any company you have to challenge when there is an issue... most of them do step up others don't... Leica stepped up to the plate, they fixed my camera 4 years out of warranty and I wasn't the original owner...no questions asked and did in about 3 months.. I didn't expect that but was very happy with the service.. They certainly aren't perfect by an stretch but they have gotten better.... I'll eventually buy a used M10 at some point with full confidence...
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Old 10-27-2018   #347
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You have ZERO proof that they knowingly sold defective cameras... Give to some solid evidence to support that claim...Otherwise its a totally reckless statement... Like any company you have to challenge when there is an issue... most of them do step up others don't... Leica stepped up to the plate, they fixed my camera 4 years out of warranty and I wasn't the original owner...no questions asked and did in about 3 months.. I didn't expect that but was very happy with the service.. They certainly aren't perfect by an stretch but they have gotten better.... I'll eventually buy a used M10 at some point with full confidence...
It really does not matter what anyone thinks about this..
But facts are facts..
IR contamination on the M8...
Moisture infiltration on the M9 sensor..light leaking lensmount & failing lugs...freezups..M10 iso dial fail..it goes on..and on...and only heated internet criticism forced them to actually move on the sensor issue after months and months of complaining...and Leicas initial denying..even though...they knew..oh yes..they knew..
And then there's the lifetime upgradable warrantee that they lied about....and the eventual 1K sensor repair..
Personally I have no stake in this one way or another and don't really care..as I didn't pony up for a digital M body from the get go..as there were just too many complaints..
Thing is..just because some % of people got decent service..doesn't mean that everyone did..and just because some people got workable cams...while others were left to twist in the wind..doesn't alter the facts..
I own a lot of Leica glass..would buy an M body in an instant..but..not with their service and reliability parameters..
I shouldn't have to send in a cam even 1x..people here though..are more than happy to send their cams back and forth multiple times..and proud they got their cams back repaired from Germany instead of NJ and avoided the dreaded NJ..fail..from the 1 guy there that works on em...finally arriving 6 to 9 mos later...jeeze..
So..instead of giving Leica my $$..someone else gets them..and I get reliability..and good service..at lower cost..
For me..a no brainer..
If I want to use an M body..I just go for the M3/M6.. and call it a day..
Quote:
"You doth protest too much."
Trust me..I really don't give a sheeeit..Leica is raking in the bux..some people are happy with their cams..others bail as fast as they can..I have non Leica cams that don't give me problems for my work..everyone is hap hap happy...
•I give not one miniscule darn that Leica is allegedly "5 years behind" when they produce the best photos I've see out of any of the 30 some odd digital cameras I've owned in the past 18 years.
I think you made those photos..not Leica..lol..
•I know they didn't knowingly sell anything defective.
LOL..OK...! Hahahaha..
•I don't have any idea, other than the rumors I read here, how many technicians they have in their shop. All I know is that every time I've sent a Leica M, X, or whatever to Leica USA in New Jersey, my needs have been fully taken care of within four weeks. (1x for a digital M, 1x for an X, 8x for film Ms, 2x for R bodies, 12x for M and R lenses over forty years.)
Talk to some other folks..and btw...that's a lot...of repairs..on a lot...of Leica cams..
•Leica USA has serviced M and R lenses and bodies for me that were out of date by as much as fifty years plus, when no one else would even take them in.
Go to Cherie..or DAG..
But..I actually luv Leica..really do...back in the day they were great..used them for over 30 years..and my dad and brother used Leicas before that..dad since the 1930's..
But now..just a boutique brand..capable of greatness when everything works....but in the end for me..not worth the potential trouble..
For me..I should not ever have to send stuff in except in extreme emergencies..not as a matter of course...as they open a new posh boutique in some hip place in the city...sipping champagne..and eating krumpets..while my cam...just sits month after month in the repair shop...abysmal..
In the end this is just internet fun talk..some agree...some don't..doesn't matter either way..
But that said..
I still look forward to new releases from Leica..hoping..maybe... this is the one..then..the complaints start...and my credit card..gets put away fast...
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Old 10-27-2018   #348
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over the M10-D flop, ready to see the M10 monochrom. maybe the price of the M246 version will finally be within reach (digital perks).
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Old 10-27-2018   #349
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I should not ever have to send stuff in except in extreme emergencies..not as a matter of course...as they open a new posh boutique in some hip place in the city...sipping champagne..and eating krumpets..while my cam...just sits month after month...abysmal..
Exactly.

8 months for a minor issue in my case. Original eta: 3 weeks.

Meanwhile they’re spending millions on fancy new headquarters...
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Old 10-27-2018   #350
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BOUAHAHAHAHAHAHA, a thumb rest... maybe they're trying to put the people at "thumb up" out of business?
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Old 10-27-2018   #351
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It really does not matter what anyone thinks about this..
But facts are facts..
I don't accept that anything you say is a fact without proof. All I read in your posts is bile and hearsay.

Responding to your points:

"I think you made those photos..not Leica..lol.."

The cameras made excellent exposures technically, better than any of the other cameras I compare them too, which is obviously what I meant.

"Talk to some other folks.....and btw...that's a lot...of repairs..on a lot...of Leica cams.."

More hearsay. No thank you. I know plenty of people with Leica cameras who are not on this forum or even, most of them, on-line at all... None ever report the kinds of problems that I read on this forum. Ever.

My X2 had a loose contact in the four way controller after the bag that it was stored in was dropped four feet to the floor. They fixed it and refused to charge me anything for it, even though the problem was my fault.

My M9 had the sensor corrosion problem, which they diagnosed and offered to fix for free at that time, and which I used the option to trade it at market value plus the balance for a new M-P 240. Neither that M-P 240, the M-D 262 I bought myself afterwards, the X typ 113, the SL, or the CL has had a single problem. All the other ones were film bodies and lenses, bought used (inexpensively), that needed cleaning and adjustment.

Over a forty year period of owning and using Leica cameras, I'd say that's really not too bad. My Nikons had a similar track record but, unlike Leica, they stopped servicing models older than about 8 years old twenty-five years ago.

I'm well aware of DAG and Sherry, been doing business with them for many, many years. They told me they didn't have the parts and didn't want to work on the ones that Leica took care of for me. They've done other work for me over the years; DAG in particular is usually my first call if I want something done.

Trust me..I really don't give a sheeeit... ...

If you "really don't give a sheet", you sure blather on a lot about stuff you don't care about. You act like a disappointed 13 year old who's lover decided she liked the other guy better.

I speak about these things because I do care about them, and have found Leica equipment has worked best, most reliably, and produced the best results for me. You're just one of the many on this particular forum who seems to find nothing but joy in bashing the only company that still makes quality rangefinder cameras, even though you call yourselves rangefinder camera enthusiasts. There is something of a contradiction in terms in that behavior.

When I bash something, I might announce that it's failed me, I then stop using it, don't buy it, and forget it. I don't spend my days telling everybody else in the world how awful it is if I've given up on it like a movie diva.

G
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Old 10-27-2018   #352
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Man have I ever been out of touch. When I look at the history of digital M cameras (I pulled this info up elsewhere on the web), I now realize that Leica has been desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras all along. The fake film advance lever would appear to be just one more step in the same direction. All in the name of selling out to nostalgia I suppose as others here have recently pointed out. I now realize that I'm totally out of my element when it comes to this conversation and will attempt to extract myself from this thread.
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Old 10-27-2018   #353
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Man have I ever been out of touch. When I look at the history of digital M cameras (I pulled this info up elsewhere on the web), I now realize that Leica has been desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras all along. The fake film advance lever would appear to be just one more step in the same direction. All in the name of selling out to nostalgia I suppose as others here have recently pointed out. I now realize that I'm totally out of my element when it comes to this conversation and will attempt to extract myself from this thread.
"desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras" ???

Leica is/was/has always been the manufacturer of the Leica M cameras. All of the Leica Ms are designed and styled by them. They don't have to try to "mimic" anything at all. They simply design and style their products as they think they ought to be.

I disagree with the thumb rest/faux wind lever design notion, but since Leica, by right of being the producer of Leica M cameras, wants to make it that way, well, that's really their privilege, don't you think? If anyone likes it, or wants to buy it, well that's their right too. I imagine Leica is doing what every other company under the sun does: trying to manufacture products that their customers want to buy. If the customers want a faux wind lever that acts as a thumb rest, well, those that want it can have it.

I just want the option of buying the same camera without it, that's all.

G
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Old 10-27-2018   #354
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Man, Leica sure stepped in it this time. So much vitriol in this thread, you'd think it was a political issue.

My take on the whole thing is the M10-D is a variant, and if I don't like it, I won't buy it. There are other versions more to my liking, ones that don't require you to use a phone to control the settings. And I can go 50-50 on the faux-winding lever thumb grip. From the videos I've seen it appears to be useful, and if one doesn't want to use it it can be folded out of the way.

But man, is it pricey! I'll be sticking with film Leicas for a lot longer than I anticipated.

But if you can afford one, by all means get it. Don't let me be a deterrent in your endeavors. Remember, there were enough folks that complained about the M3 that Leica developed the M2 to make them happy, but threw in a few quirks to show them who's boss.

PF
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Old 10-27-2018   #355
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Hey Godfrey..you take this stuff way too seriously/personally man...!
Like a criticism of Leica somehow is an attack on you ..it's not...you are happy with them and others are not..it's as simple as that..
Leica has some serious intrinsic issues..this is well known..its not going to be solved today..or probably ever..
It could be argued that the fake film lever is really the last straw for many people with Leica though..as complete shallowness..
But I dont mind it at all...because I'm not buyin it..
When they decide to put out a rangefinder that meets my needs..I will buy it..until that time..nope..
I have to admit though..the M10-D...comes 90% close..

Its not hating or trolling..its just the facts..
Leica has some issues..that need to be fixed..once they fix em...threads like this one..will lessen..
Back in the day with Wisner LF cameras..there were 2 groups of people..
1st group..didnt believe the Wisner internet horror stories...as their experience was good overall..
2nd group..experienced the horrors in full..
1st group thought the 2nd group was lying and hateful..they were blind to the very real problems and defended Wisner till the end..
2nd group wasnt lying at all..just relating their personal experiences..
Both were correct from their perspectives..
Wisner went out of business..
I hope Leica doesn't..
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Old 10-27-2018   #356
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"desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras" ???

Leica is/was/has always been the manufacturer of the Leica M cameras. All of the Leica Ms are designed and styled by them. They don't have to try to "mimic" anything at all. They simply design and style their products as they think they ought to be.
Exactly. One of the reasons that I was drawn to Leica almost 20 years ago was because their designs so well represented what many call form following function. The rounded ends of the M film cameras make total sense when you consider that they contain a canister of film in one end and a film take up mechanism in the other. Form followed function. This is one of the reasons that the M design became so iconic.

When the change to digital was made, things were primed for redefining the M's design — one that represented the switch to using a digital sensor instead of film. Leica had the chance to stick with the same form following function design ethos that had guided their work before then. Instead it would appear that they opted for nostalgia in the form of the M8 mimicking their own past M designs. Maybe they were scared of another "M5 incident" (a camera that many have now obviously come to love after it was first widely rejected). To me it appears a flever is just another step in the same direction. Mimicking their own, older designs. I'll admit that it seems as if Leica are designing/styling their products in a fashion that they think will best sell (and sell at the prices they demand). This is totally their right of course.
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Old 10-27-2018   #357
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Just to try to balance things out a bit here, I'm painfully aware that no one is going to look at the images I create and think anything more of them because they were made with an old Leica M film camera. If anything, they might think less of them, as in "what a waste of a camera" or "what a waste of money". Conversely if you buy a M10-D and capture some truly awesome images with it, no one is going to worry about the flever on top of the camera. They'll just be focused on the images themselves. That's one of the beautiful things about photography. While it's part art and part sciences, it's still an art form that rewards the more creatively minded individuals.
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Old 10-28-2018   #358
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Exactly. One of the reasons that I was drawn to Leica almost 20 years ago was because their designs so well represented what many call form following function. The rounded ends of the M film cameras make total sense when you consider that they contain a canister of film in one end and a film take up mechanism in the other. Form followed function. This is one of the reasons that the M design became so iconic.

When the change to digital was made, things were primed for redefining the M's design — one that represented the switch to using a digital sensor instead of film. Leica had the chance to stick with the same form following function design ethos that had guided their work before then. Instead it would appear that they opted for nostalgia in the form of the M8 mimicking their own past M designs. Maybe they were scared of another "M5 incident" (a camera that many have now obviously come to love after it was first widely rejected). To me it appears a flever is just another step in the same direction. Mimicking their own, older designs. I'll admit that it seems as if Leica are designing/styling their products in a fashion that they think will best sell (and sell at the prices they demand). This is totally their right of course.
I was never drawn to Leica "because their form followed function", I was drawn to Leica because a) my grandfather and father had one, and b) when I compared the photos I made with one of theirs to my Nikon photos, I liked them more. That's it.

Yes, I'm sure Leica doesn't want another M5 experience. Between the absolutely abysmal sales of the M5, the exporting of money from the company due to warranty problems with the Minolta-built CL, and the lackluster sales of the very expensive to produce Leicaflex cameras, Leica nearly ceased to exist. The rounded ends of the Leica M (and pre-M, and CL, and Q, and X...) cameras are nice looking and fit the hand more comfortably than square edged corners like the M5 had. But are mostly irrelevant to me. What I disliked about the M5 when I had my uncle's to use was its huge increase in bulk over the M4: It was bigger feeling than my Nikon F. Still made great photos, but was unpleasant in the hand.

Having to go back to the M4 body design to survive and fulfill what their buyers wanted, I think Leica is loathe to try to change their quirky rangefinder audience's mind. Look how much crap they've gotten ... from the rangefinder owners! ... over the modern, hard-edged design of the SL despite its brilliant performance. Never mind the ridicule that those rangefinder owners have tossed in the direction of the T/TL/TL2 with its very modern UI and sharp lines... And the love and praise they've had for the Q and CL due to how much they look and feel like an M.

Would you want to upset your buying community so much? Of course they're trying to make a digital M as much like a film M as possible. It only makes sense: that's what 60+ years of Leica M buyers seem to insist upon.

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Old 10-28-2018   #359
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Hey Godfrey..you take this stuff way too seriously/personally man...!
Like a criticism of Leica somehow is an attack on you ..it's not...you are happy with them and others are not..it's as simple as that...
{snip}
And how about you? Any compliment or discussion of Leica brings a snipe about how they've mistreated you, personally, over and over and over again.

Me thinks the pot is calling the kettle black here. If it's "as simple as that", well, you can stop your bashing and I'll enjoy a bit less vitriol on the forum. We can each reside in our separate realities and use whatever equipment we like.

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Old 10-28-2018   #360
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But man, is it pricey! I'll be sticking with film Leica's for a lot longer than I anticipated.

PF
Just last week I went back to my M3. It feels so nice.
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