Old 01-05-2017   #121
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Originally Posted by LightBender View Post
I believe it is the other guys that make the "RF-like" tools. Leica is the one that actually makes the better RF tool.
Quite right. In fact if you want a TRUE mechanical RF there's only one show in town

The Fuji reminds me a bit CONCEPTUALLY of a spring drive Grand Seiko, some of the tech of a mech watch, some tech of a quartz watch, overall something quite different to everything else

For some, only the true authentic mech watch will do, for others the brilliance of the spring drive solution is quite a draw.

Some own both.

Not so different to cameras
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Old 01-05-2017   #122
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In my view Leica is highly innovative. Their innovation is focused on a niche market.

What percentage of new new camera buyers own a curated set of M/LTM lenses?

How many new camera buyers prefer a mechanical, optical RF and the ergonomics of a M camera body?

How many new camera buyers long for a minimalistic usage aesthetic where even AF is not offered?

The Monochrome Ms comprise a minuscule sliver of the global new camera market share. Yet Leica developed two of them.

The CMOSIS Ms serve that market share well and provide a platform with competitive technical performance (signal-to-noise ratio).
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Old 01-05-2017   #123
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Looks like the M10 will take the M240 battery.
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Old 01-05-2017   #124
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I've heard from an inside source that they rival the images from the Leica S.
The Leica S has a sensor that's barely larger than FF and sensor tech that was dated at launch. So yes, it will rival the Leica S. As does the Nikon D610, and every other in-production FF camera made today.
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Old 01-05-2017   #125
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post

What percentage of new new camera buyers own a curated set of M/LTM lenses?
The term 'curated' has been overused in everyday life. From clothing stores, to gourmet donut shops, to now lens ownership.

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Old 01-05-2017   #126
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The term 'curated' has been overused in everyday life. From clothing stores, to gourmet donut shops, to now lens ownership.

I guess the rest of us just own expensive lenses haphazardly?

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Old 01-05-2017   #127
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I thought the Leica S sensor was 30x45, or approximately 50% larger than 24x36 full frame. The new sensors in the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX50 are roughly the same size the Leica S, but of course with more megapixels. Here's an image showing the difference:

Leica's chart is misleading. This is a bit more accurate. Sure 56% larger, but no where near 645. I would criticize the GFX and X1D for being similarly cropped MFD, but they do make up for it a bit by using industry leading sensors and are very compact. The S is huge and has a bunch of reported problems from users, with the worst in class sensor performance.
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Old 01-05-2017   #128
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The term 'curated' has been overused in everyday life. From clothing stores, to gourmet donut shops, to now lens ownership.

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here... Are you referring to meaning #3 and our Bartender?

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2. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a clergyman who has the charge of a parish (curate-in-charge)
3. Irish an assistant barman
[C14: from Medieval Latin cūrātus, from cūra spiritual oversight, cure]
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Old 01-05-2017   #129
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I guess the rest of us just own expensive lenses haphazardly?

Dante
Are you suggesting only expensive things can be curated?

You should see my sock drawer. Nothing haphazard in there. I guess I curated my socks.
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Old 01-05-2017   #130
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Medium format is anything between 24x36 and 4x5. Why is that so hard to understand? It's amazing what semantics can do to a person.
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Old 01-05-2017   #131
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Some of those 'vanities' seem quite tied to the M mount and its lenses.
The >o< exposure indicator, framelines, basic body shape.

I like the battery compartment personally, no fragile hinged doors and plastic covers everywhere, just a simple twist and remove and metal as well but I concede it is obviously a tribute to another age.

Bloated now and 1950s, but you want 'more ergonomics' seems a very tough remit to fill.
'AF compatibility' seems really at odds with the M mount to me, manual focus rangefinder is surely the fundamental competitive advantage of M, AF lenses on an M seems a little like putting a rangefinder in a 5dM3 to me at least.
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Old 01-05-2017   #132
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I look forward to the 'M10' just being, whatever it is. I mean it already is what it is somewhere, assuming the forthcoming announcement actually is it.

LOL if it's another Q or something being announced. The QM maybe - monochrom complete with Autofocus (pronounced Ow Toe Foe Cuss of course)
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Old 01-05-2017   #133
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[...] I'd love to see a Leica with more ergonomics, AF compatibility, WR, and finder window innovation. [...]
Well, lucky you. Leica makes an X, Q, T, SL and S series of cameras, offering just these things.

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Old 01-06-2017   #134
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I think with the M line Leica should stay with the roots. They have the other lines for all the EVF, AF and video-taking capabilities.
When someone buys an M, he/she buys it for being dead simple to use (meaning clear layout and no menu diving, fn-buttons or scene automation, no cluttering BS so to speak) and obviously an optical RF
I see that other people enjoy the hybrid abilities of the M240, but other than the sensor I'd prefer my M9.
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Old 01-06-2017   #135
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I think with the M line Leica should stay with the roots. They have the other lines for all the EVF, AF and video-taking capabilities.
When someone buys an M, he/she buys it for being dead simple to use (meaning clear layout and no menu diving, fn-buttons or scene automation, no cluttering BS so to speak) and obviously an optical RF
I see that other people enjoy the hybrid abilities of the M240, but other than the sensor I'd prefer my M9.
This sums it up for me.
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Old 01-06-2017   #136
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Because Fuji won't offer the thing I want in one way, and Leica won't the other way. I've shot with the MM - both versions are okay, but I'd love to see a Leica with more ergonomics, AF compatibility, WR, and finder window innovation. I've always hated the >o< exposure indicator for instance - it (sorta) makes sense for a (mostly) mechanical film camera but it's just Ludditic/nostalgic on a digital camera. Why can't the info be more well represented like my 5Dm3?

Why are we still presented with a bloated body that was mostly designed in the 1950s? Why do the framelines still operate mechanically? Why do we have an ancient way of opening the battery compartment? Why are the bodies not all mag-alloy? Why not offer a few weather sealed lenses (IIRC the bodies are aside from the mount)?

I just want options for my tools and, because of all these vanities, I don't think of the digital Leica Ms as tools, just toys.
Well, all the things that you like are things I avoid and they are tools to me. I am a full-time professional and shoot advertising commercial and the MM M262 and M-E are my tools of choice.

Most of the things you mention are what most of the other makers are making. Nice to have a REAL choice for those that don't want or need those things. And even Leica has camera options that have some of those features.
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Old 01-06-2017   #137
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The term 'curated' has been overused in everyday life. From clothing stores, to gourmet donut shops, to now lens ownership.

So you curate the overused words then?
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Old 01-06-2017   #138
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I would think to be curated, each lens in the set would have to be selected from many different examples and only the best one retained. Otherwise, it would just be a collection or, in technical terms, a "bunch".
Maybe I'm delusional, but I seem to remember a significant number of threads here on RFF that discussed the very the lenses selection process you describe. Those with M/LTM mount cameras are fortunate to be able to consider a great number of "different examples" manufactured over decades by several companies.

After reading threads on RFF for over a decade I maintain a significant number of M/LTM photographers actually do curate a set of lenses.
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Old 01-06-2017   #139
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Are you suggesting only expensive things can be curated?

You should see my sock drawer. Nothing haphazard in there. I guess I curated my socks.
My feet are anatomically flawed (really). My socks are curated. I only keep those that are well made and fit extremely well. I have a moderate pride in how how I look. If I'm gifted socks of a color and, or pattern incompatible with my wardrobe, are poorly made, etc. I donate them.
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Old 01-06-2017   #140
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Well, more than a few that did 6x9. It was the standard small format for decades. Remember all those folders and box cameras?
24x36 was the miniature format, regarded much like micro-4/3rds nowadays by many photographers of the time. How the world has changed...
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Old 01-06-2017   #141
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So you curate the overused words then?
Only the ones with vowels in them.

I think we should replace the word 'moderator' with 'curator'.
An RFF Curator sounds so much better than RFF Moderator. It will make this a much more civilized and agreeable place.

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Old 01-06-2017   #142
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Well, more than a few that did 6x9. It was the standard small format for decades. Remember all those folders and box cameras?
24x36 was the miniature format, regarded much like micro-4/3rds nowadays by many photographers of the time. How the world has changed...
Yes a lot of portraits studios had RBs and RZs.

I remember reading an article where Adams called his hasselblad a small camera. I guess it just depends on ones perspective.
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Old 01-06-2017   #143
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Interesting that there are a few that want all sorts of things from the M camera system and these desired features are justified as being options and tools needed to make the M a better camera. The M is characterized as needing to be more like some modern DSLR with AF, EVF etc. Because, all these features on other cameras make these other cameras better and more versatile.

Features that aren't wanted on the M, or are viewed as in need of change, are described as vanities for luddites that are simply nostalgic carry-overs from the film M cameras.

The argument then goes on to say that the M needs to make all sorts of changes, needs more added features, to become a serious modern tool for photographers.

I guess I'm stuck in the mindset of wanting better photography and not a camera that does more things but, doesn't really make the experience or the photographs better. And, in fact, may detract from what (for me) is what the camera was simply designed for.

As always pointed out, there are plenty of cameras for studio and sports and all other sorts of photography that are better suited because, they are designed for purpose. The M is none of those things, particularly. The M was designed for something else and it does what it does better than anything else.

I do want the M to be better at the things it does do. Improvements in speed, sensor, updated electronics, size, etc. are of course welcome. Make the M better not different.
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Old 01-06-2017   #144
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I don't know about all of this thinking that the M needs AF and EVF and all of the other things that don't play to the basic concept of the M system.

It just seems like a second M version that is more tech forward (what ever that means) would be destined to be a real loser concept, as it will not be competitive with other systems that actually have AF lenses (the M has MF lenses) and the M lenses don't really lend themselves to EVF manual focus.

A second M system like this would be set to fail from the start. It makes no sense and would be even more limited in market share as other cameras would kill a system as feeble as an M EVF and AF system. It would be doomed from the start. That is why it isn't ever going to happen.

Very few folks, other than internet arm chair camera designers, would even consider it. It would be a Rube Goldberg sort of contraption that would end up appealing to none.

The way forward is a more pure M that actually steps back toward the intent of the M system and reinforces these strengths. I think we are all going to all want the new M, if your thinking is along these lines.
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Old 01-06-2017   #145
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I don't know about all of this thinking that the M needs AF and EVF and all of the other things that don't play to the basic concept of the M system.

It just seems like a second M version that is more tech forward (what ever that means) would be destined to be a real loser concept, as it will not be competitive with other systems that actually have AF lenses (the M has MF lenses) and the M lenses don't really lend themselves to EVF manual focus.

A second M system like this would be set to fail from the start. It makes no sense and would be even more limited in market share as other cameras would kill a system as feeble as an M EVF and AF system. It would be doomed from the start. That is why it isn't ever going to happen.

Very few folks, other than internet arm chair camera designers, would even consider it. It would be a Rube Goldberg sort of contraption that would end up appealing to none.

The way forward is a more pure M that actually steps back toward the intent of the M system and reinforces these strengths. I think we are all going to all want the new M, if your thinking is along these lines.
Absolutely. Capitalize on the strengths and harness the greatest luxury of all; reliability. Make it tough as nails and reliable.
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Old 01-06-2017   #146
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Yeah that X-Pro 2 really appeals to nobody.
Well, it appeals to nobody with a bunch of M lenses... other than it is a cool little camera like a lot of other cameras we have to choose from right now.

I'm really not sure why it is brought up here. It is a cropped factor camera that happens to have a viewfinder. It just happens to pay an odd sort of "Ludditic/nostalgic" homage to the vanities of those that really wanted an M.


It seems odd that the Fuji gets credit for its design (that copies the M) while the M gets demerits for copying itself.

If I were Fuji, starting from a clean sheet, I'd have designed a more ergonomically formed camera with more tech forward features.

Just me.
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Old 01-06-2017   #147
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Absolutely. Capitalize on the strengths and harness the greatest luxury of all; reliability. Make it tough as nails and reliable.
Right on!
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Old 01-06-2017   #148
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Yeah that X-Pro 2 really appeals to nobody.
It doesn't work for me.
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Old 01-07-2017   #149
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.



It seems odd that the Fuji gets credit for its design (that copies the M)

Just me.
Well.... the Fuji doesn't have a MESSSUCHER nor does it have any native manual focus lenses, these are about the 2 things that make an M an M

To the best of my knowledge... RE their shared features, Leica didn't invent the optical viewfinder, didn't invent placing the viewfinder in the top left corner, nor did Leica invent the rectangle shape or the shutter speed dial or the aperture ring

The 'copy' tag IMO only persists because Fuji resurrected design and features once found on many cameras, but ones which were largely obsolete except on the Leica.

I don't doubt that Fuji saw a market for that type of camera (although by most accounts the original X-Pro wasn't a commercial success at launch price) but targeting a market share and copying an existent product aren't the same thing.

Devils advocate: The 240 however, brought features that Fuji already in place on the X-Pro (live view, an EVF, video - in fact with the multi function grip and EVF fitted the 240 is a LESS simplistic camera than the X-Pro1)

But no one says that the 240 copied the X-Pro. Why? Becuase (like Fuji the other way around) Leica weren't looking to 'steal' Fuji customers, they were looking to broaden the appeal of their products

My HUNCH would be that a few people have bought the Fuji and ended up getting the Leica they actually wanted, I bet that's not true the other way round. Also people have no doubt seen the Fuji in the camera store, gone home to read it about and discovered the Leica.

Fuji have inadvertently been good for Leica, they've raised awareness of the M whilst taking none of Leica sales, and anyone buying a Fuji to scratch a Leica itch will remain icthy - they haven't got what they truly want.

I get the sense that a few people own both a X-Pro and a M. That (IMO) demonstrates the differences and viability in each product.
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Old 01-10-2017   #150
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Old 01-10-2017   #151
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Hmmm, still looks fatter than a Film M.
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Old 01-10-2017   #152
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Hmmm, still looks fatter than a Film M.
Looking at my M4-P in my hands, it appears to be. Seems to be thinner than M240 though.

The ISO dial looks decent. I wish they found a way to put exposure compensation dial somehow though. Maybe the ISO dial there could have been the Exp comp, and use M2 frame counter-like dial around shutter release for ISO.

M10-D with no display, exp comp on the back and lose the thumb dial then we get an ultimate M-D.
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Old 01-10-2017   #153
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What I don't understand is why a company that favors simplicity fails to realize what a modern touch sensitive surface with a screen can really do.

Make it a touchscreen, flat with the body, get rid of all the rear buttons/dials & implement them on the screen like phones do, and voila you have a nice looking camera again.
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Old 01-10-2017   #154
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What I don't understand is why a company that favors simplicity fails to realize what a modern touch sensitive surface with a screen can really do.

Make it a touchscreen, flat with the body, get rid of all the rear buttons/dials & implement them on the screen like phones do, and voila you have a nice looking camera again.
yeah, only problem with that is that those buttons and dials is what make a M camera a M camera.


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Old 01-10-2017   #155
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What I don't understand is why a company that favors simplicity fails to realize what a modern touch sensitive surface with a screen can really do.

Make it a touchscreen, flat with the body, get rid of all the rear buttons/dials & implement them on the screen like phones do, and voila you have a nice looking camera again.
It was originally called as the "T". Leica TL currently.
https://en.leica-camera.com/Photogra...eica-TL-System
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Old 01-10-2017   #156
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yeah, only problem with that is that those buttons and dials is what make a M camera a M camera.


Regards.


Marcelo
I think he means the stuff on the back of the camera, not the dials up top.

Just having a touch screen on the back is a great idea.
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Old 01-10-2017   #157
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What I don't understand is why a company that favors simplicity fails to realize what a modern touch sensitive surface with a screen can really do.

Make it a touchscreen, flat with the body, get rid of all the rear buttons/dials & implement them on the screen like phones do, and voila you have a nice looking camera again.
That's called the Leica T or TL. Ko.Fe beat me too it. But the M is really not the platform for such changes...
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Old 01-10-2017   #158
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We have no indication that this camera doesn't have a touch screen. If they reduced buttons on the back it very well may have some touch functionality. Doesn't the Q, SL, and obvs the TL now? Then again, I'm not sure what the wheel and d-pad would be for, but then again, again, other cameras with touch screens have not-always eliminated buttons even if they're redundant.
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Old 01-10-2017   #159
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Chrome! Not steel grey, chrome! Tired of seeing the most recent batch of M cameras come out in black only (looking at you M-D)
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Old 01-10-2017   #160
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IMO, touch screen makes sense for two:
1. Touch for AF, M10 has no AF, if I'm not mistaken.
2. Touch to measure exposure, I don't know if M10 has measuring sensors spread across the sensor.

So, touch screen on the back of M is great idea for which functionality? I think, they need to add Bluetooth and Safari browser to use it with RFF mobile app to make it "great again". For some
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