Stand development at 25C
Old 07-15-2016   #1
Nedgonaes
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Stand development at 25C

Everyone seems to do stand development at 20c, but many say the temp doesn't matter much. I don't have AC, and it's about 80F in my apartment. My tap water is about 25c. Should I try to cool it down with ice, or is that an acceptable temp?

I'm using agfa rodinal and TF4 fixer, developing arista.edu ultra 100 120 film. This is my first time developing film.
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Old 07-15-2016   #2
p.giannakis
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A roll that i developed in 22c came out with more noticeable grain.
Here is a pic.



Edit: I didn't do stand developing though...
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Old 07-16-2016   #3
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What film are you going to use? Not all films feel comfy in a 25 degC soup for too long. There will be so much grain that the resolution of the film will be considerably and very very notably reduced.
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Old 07-16-2016   #4
Dayrell bishop
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I start from 20 degC then put it in the fridge.I am not sure this film is suitable for stand dev.
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Old 07-16-2016   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayrell bishop View Post
I start from 20 degC then put it in the fridge.I am not sure this film is suitable for stand dev.
I think it will be all right. I picked it based on results of stand development from here: http://filmdev.org/recipe/show/9638.

But I guess 25C might add too much grain.

I imagine the temps drop significantly in the fridge if you're doing stand. What does that do to the results?
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Old 07-16-2016   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papaki View Post
What film are you going to use? Not all films feel comfy in a 25 degC soup for too long. There will be so much grain that the resolution of the film will be considerably and very very notably reduced.
Thanks for that insight. I'm going to get a cooler and put the bath with ice inside there and develop with the lid on. I have a temperature probe on a long wire that I can put in there to monitor temps from outside and have it beep when it gets above 20C.
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Old 07-16-2016   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papaki View Post
What film are you going to use? Not all films feel comfy in a 25 degC soup for too long. There will be so much grain that the resolution of the film will be considerably and very very notably reduced.
Arista.EDU Ultra 100.
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Old 07-16-2016   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.giannakis View Post
A roll that i developed in 22c came out with more noticeable grain.
Here is a pic.



Edit: I didn't do stand developing though...
Thanks for the useful example. That is definitely more grain than I want. What film was that?
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Old 07-16-2016   #9
Roger Hicks
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Originally Posted by Nedgonaes View Post
. . . This is my first time developing film.
Then DON'T piddle around with stand development. There is a good reason why conventional agitation became the standard. What advantages do you think you will get from stand development? And how will you know what they are, unless you already have some experience of normal development?

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Old 07-16-2016   #10
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The massive dev chart has Fomapan 100 (I think the same film ) as 1.200 for only 30 min and 1.100 for 10 min.
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Old 07-16-2016   #11
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(Semi-) Stand dev? I do not care about temp to be honest .. I leave it on really hot days but I do not care if it's 18C or 27C
The theory is that you soup the film for so long in so low concentration that the activity of the developer gets veeeery low .. so I conclude it doesn't matter if it almost(!) stops after 18 or 26 minutes when you leave it standing for one or two hours
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Old 07-16-2016   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Then DON'T piddle around with stand development. There is a good reason why conventional agitation became the standard. What advantages do you think you will get from stand development? And how will you know what they are, unless you already have some experience of normal development?

Cheers,

R.
Mostly interested in it because it's a slower process that is easier for me to follow, and really hard to mess up. I feel like as a first timer, this is a good choice. Then later when I get used to handling film and chemicals and tank, I can piddle around with conventional agitation.

Edit:
This thread is actually a good example of what I mean. Someone above showed some pretty unacceptable grain due to temps that were 22C using normal agitation. Meanwhile someone else using stand development seems to get by just fine at 27C. The whole process just seems more robust to me.
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Old 07-16-2016   #13
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I enjoy using stand development, especially wih 100 ASA films and slower.

However, it seems like the time it takes can be a deterrent to some folks, even me when I want to get it done rather quickly, then I use something like D-76 where I usually dilute it 1+1. I find that stand development with Rodinal or some other name works best for me for developing 35mm with 6 ml of stock to 600 ml of water then develop for 1 hour. I try to keep it at around 68 to 70 degrees f.
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Old 07-16-2016   #14
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Rodinal 1+100 2h with Trix - I rate that combo to anything between 400-1600 .. bit contrasty but good for me

MF:

Untitled by Kay K, on Flickr

35mm:

Untitled by Kay K, on Flickr
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Old 07-16-2016   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedgonaes View Post
Mostly interested in it because it's a slower process that is easier for me to follow, and really hard to mess up. I feel like as a first timer, this is a good choice. Then later when I get used to handling film and chemicals and tank, I can piddle around with conventional agitation.

Edit:
This thread is actually a good example of what I mean. Someone above showed some pretty unacceptable grain due to temps that were 22C using normal agitation. Meanwhile someone else using stand development seems to get by just fine at 27C. The whole process just seems more robust to me.
You see only the successes.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 07-16-2016   #16
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So I did it! Looking at the negatives as they are drying, they look very good. The photos aren't very interesting, I was mainly testing a new camera that I wasn't sure worked. I've also never shot film with a fully manual camera, and haven't shot film since like 2003.

I used a cooler and tried to keep the temp lower, just because why not. I used filtered tap water and put the beaker containing rodinal and water in the ice bath (which was 15C) for a while to get it down to 20C. Meanwhile I was presoaking the film in filtered tapwater, with the tank sitting in the cooler ice bath as well. I probably presoaked it for more than 10 minutes, I didn't time time.


Then I dumped the rodinal mix into the tank and put back in the ice bath. I used 500ml:5ml mix. I did some inversions for like 30 seconds. I forgot to time that as well. At the 30 minute mark I did one inversion and did another 30 minutes.

The bath was only 15c so I left the cooler open, but then at some point my thermometer beeped because it had reached 23C. I must not have heard it when it reached 20C (oops). I put some more ice in it to cool down. I got the bath down to 17C, hoping that it would cool whats in the tank to about 20, but who knows what it was at.

When it was done I rinsed for a couple of minutes dumping the water out a few times.

I forgot to shake up the TF4 before mixing it with water (oops!), but I did shake the mixture once I did mix it. I hope that's not a problem, I dunno. I agitated the fixer 30 seconds each minute for 5 minutes.

Finally, I rinsed it for about 5 minutes, and then put some photoflo mixed 200:1 with water for 30 seconds and now it's hanging up.

All this to say: my temperature control was all over the place, I screwed up several times, and it seems to have come out all right anyhow. Thanks everyone for the advice!
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Old 07-16-2016   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
You see only the successes.

Cheers,

R.
Very true. I get what you're trying to say. It's good advice. Just, for me, I'm just trying to see: can I make pictures come out on film for now. I'm an absolute klutz in the kitchen, so following all the steps properly is just intimidating for me.

Next I will try standard development!
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Old 07-16-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedgonaes View Post
Thanks for the useful example. That is definitely more grain than I want. What film was that?
It was Kodak Tri-X
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Old 07-16-2016   #19
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This is how it came out.

img010 by Sean Ogden, on Flickr
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Old 07-16-2016   #20
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Use ice cube crushed to bring the temp down. I don't know what 75 degrees F is in C but John Sexton uses 75 degrees F with Tmax films. He does do something similar to stand but controlled (not sloppy RFF normal stand development) and only with High Contrast scenes.

http://johnsexton.com/images/Compens...evelopment.pdf
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Old 07-17-2016   #21
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I'd rather try to get all bathes on one temp than just trying to keep the developer at 20C
I think the film suffers more from sudden changes in temp than slight drifting while standing in low concentrated developer.
I keep some 5 liter plastic jugs with tap and demineralized water standing at room temp that help me to maintain temperature thru the whole process.
I also rather transform temperature in duration with normal developer concentrations than trying to measure flowing water on the tap.
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Old 07-19-2016   #22
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I did a run today without any kind of cooling just to experiment. These pictures are mostly of places I visit frequently so I don't care if the photos are ruined.
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Old 07-20-2016   #23
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Results of semi-stand with no temperature controls. It was probably 78F in my apartment:

img021 by Sean Ogden, on Flickr

img023 by Sean Ogden, on Flickr

img020 by Sean Ogden, on Flickr
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Old 07-20-2016   #24
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I just turned my faucet on cold (as far right as I could get it) and filled up my beaker to where it needed to be and added Rodinal at 1+100 and inverted for the first 30 seconds and then let it sit and inverted twice every 30min. Total time it sat was for 75min. Not the most scientific way to do it but from my understanding the temp doesn't matter *as much* because it's happening over such a long period of time.
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Old 07-20-2016   #25
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https://flic.kr/p/JnL9WS

https://flic.kr/p/Keuv75

https://flic.kr/p/JnMF7E

A few various examples.
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Old 07-20-2016   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k__43 View Post
I'd rather try to get all bathes on one temp than just trying to keep the developer at 20C
I think the film suffers more from sudden changes in temp than slight drifting while standing in low concentrated developer.
I keep some 5 liter plastic jugs with tap and demineralized water standing at room temp that help me to maintain temperature thru the whole process.
I also rather transform temperature in duration with normal developer concentrations than trying to measure flowing water on the tap.
Bear in mind that stand development, and especially with Rodinal, is recommended under 19 degC to keep the grain as low possible.
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Old 07-20-2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papaki View Post
Bear in mind that stand development, and especially with Rodinal, is recommended under 19 degC to keep the grain as low possible.
I notice more grain that I'd expect from a 100 speed film (based on other peoples' examples online) in the above photographs. But then again I'm lazy. I do want to try just putting it in an ice bath the whole time and see if I notice the difference in grain.
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Old 07-20-2016   #28
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Do not make it too cold or you'll arrest the development almost completely. 17 to 19 is enough. Do not freeze it to death
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Old 07-20-2016   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papaki View Post
Bear in mind that stand development, and especially with Rodinal, is recommended under 19 degC to keep the grain as low possible.
Not sure - I have to track that in the future but I have no grain problem with the combo per se .. it's only happening when I under or over expose too much or just overrate a film in rodinal 1+100 like this
shanghai GP3 at ISO 400 - still I find the grain acceptable and I'm certain that was warmer than 19C

... by Kay K, on Flickr


this was developed in summer with the same film but rated at 100:

bastelstunde by Kay K, on Flickr
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