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Old 01-31-2016   #41
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Originally Posted by valdas View Post
Well, I made the trade, the price I paid is zero. But I am taxed. That's my issue.
I understand what you're saying, but while you didn't exchange cash you did exchange something of value for the lens you received.
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Old 01-31-2016   #42
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The point of this thread is not about problems of corruption, which are widespread and not confined to one country. And declaring actual price of an item sold when shipping it out of the country is not about caring about someone's feelings. Its about following the law and doing the right thing as a citizen.

Those who feel otherwise can buy and sell with those who feel the same way and face any ill consequences that result.
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Old 01-31-2016   #43
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Originally Posted by ellisson View Post
The point of this thread is not about problems of corruption, which are widespread and not confined to one country. And declaring actual price of an item sold when shipping it out of the country is not about caring about someone's feelings. Its about following the law and doing the right thing as a citizen.

Those who feel otherwise can buy and sell with those who feel the same way and face any ill consequences that result.
Well said.
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Old 01-31-2016   #44
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I'm in complete agreement with Dante.

A major peeve of mine is when RFF members - and members of other forums - post items for sale, saying they accept PayPal but wanting the money sent as a "gift" (in breech of PayPal contract). Otherwise, they want PayPal fees paid in addition.

This is blatantly dishonest and dishonorable.

If a seller accepts payment by PayPal, the stated price should be for PayPal Purchase. I don't care if discounts are offered for other forms of payment, but PayPal Gift shouldn't even be considered.

I'm not sure exactly how much PayPal purchase fees to the seller are, so I am tired of asking if the stated price is for PayPal Purchase and, if not, how much extra the seller requires.

There are a lot of dishonest practices that are largely accepted by society, but they are still dishonest despite said acceptance.

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Old 01-31-2016   #45
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I'm not surpised you are with him and making fasle assumtion abouts me.

I'm paying 60$K in taxes from 100K$ annual income.
The problem here is not with paying of taxes as you could see from my numbers.

Healthcare in Ontario is on costant decline even after additional tax was imposed on us and services are consantly getting delisted with more taxes collected. The problem with healthcare is in the elected by idiots goverment which first name is corrumtion and second name is missppending.
Billions of dollars are stolen from Ontraio health care. Proven facts.
Same situation is with schools. We have portables at freshly build schools and falling appart old schools, dangeriossly falling apart. Yet, schoolboards organisations like in Toronto misspending millions of dollars ever year. Also proven facts.

But, yes, for you and him it is easy to blame Canadains for not paying taxes. You give no sh..t how we feel and what is local situation in terms of spending of collected taxes, it is all about how you feel. Very american.
You need a better accountant...I'm one. The maximum you would pay the government on $100k is just over $30k..perhaps $6.5k more if the government takes back the OAS they give you (no you never paid for this). Even if you spent the entire balance on taxable items...HST maxes at $9k. If you are adding property taxes, you are comparing apples and oranges...you choose where you live and the costs follow.

I'm with Dante...I pay the tax/duty when it applies. If I have a problem with the level of tax or how the money is spent, I have a voice and a vote.
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Old 01-31-2016   #46
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Corruption and huge misspending at Toronto school boards is matter of proven facts, but many like you prefer not to know about it.
Shame on you.
Really? Shame on me? I know all about it and I NEVER claimed there was no misspending, nor that there was not corruption. And yes, the voters make choices that you or I don't agree with. After all, Rob Ford was mayor for four years.

That's my final post on this thread within a thread.
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Old 01-31-2016   #47
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Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
Try that with a New M9, sent to say Germany from the US, and see how that goes, you will not be pleased, or you might be lucky. That is how cheating (smuggling) works.
I once shipped a brand new Monochrom to the Netherlands...after all, it looks just like an old timey film camera. Shipped in a previously used box, with bubble wrap and nothing else, it flew through customs.
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Old 01-31-2016   #48
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Originally Posted by ellisson View Post
The point of this thread is not about problems of corruption, which are widespread and not confined to one country.
That's one of the factors for me, actually.
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Old 01-31-2016   #49
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Originally Posted by mwooten View Post
I understand what you're saying, but while you didn't exchange cash you did exchange something of value for the lens you received.
Oh dear, here we go back again. I have just been told that we should be taxed based on price we paid , not based on value (which is subjective), but you go back and now say it's not based on price but value... Please check all my posts on this subject and the write comment...
And the let's think about the trade logic - when I buy an item for cash in the shop I pay VAT (or you in US - sales tax), but would you go back to the shop and say - look, it's wrong color, I want to exchange it for another, will you pay the tax the second time? The same logic for repaired abroad items should apply.
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Old 01-31-2016   #50
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Coming from a VAT / customs annoying country -
My take is that the customs process delays delivery by up to 3 weeks, often involves arbitrary values that need to be contested, adding another week, + additional charges for storage, delivery (on top of postal charges), to which VAT is also added...
whereas if a low value is declared 95% of time it goes swiftly through without a hitch.
And the icing on the cake is that if, as I often do for more expensive gear, I have the item shipped to a US address and carry it in on a flight, there is no question that customs/VAT will not apply.

So while I report and pay taxes within the confines of the law, this is something else...
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Old 01-31-2016   #51
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Originally Posted by bmattock View Post
This is not a rant, but an observation. I had to sell a lot of cameras a few years back. I stopped listing for outside the USA because buyers routinely demanded that I mark the item as a gift. It felt weird that I had to explain in my listing that I would not lie on the forms. Additionally, my disclaimer was routinely ignored anyway. I had too many long discussions with buyers who were angry with me even after my notice in the listing. I was typically threatened with negative feedback - for obeying the law!

Added to the 1-in-3 chance that the buyer would find some imaginary fault and demand a partial refund, I was glad when I no longer had to sell anything. I'm a good ebay buyer -since 1996. I don't care to sell. So many dishonest cheats out there. Sad really.
Tell me about it! And since they criminally stopped allowing sellers to leave negative feedback (or even just a simple right to reply) against such unsubstantiated false 'problems' and BS negative feedback usually invented by such buyers who see your perfect 100% feedback score as an apt barrel to blackmail you over....oh God that annoys me.

I would hate to have to sell stuff on Ebay now, especially fragile and expensive individual items like cameras and glass. Ebay will just give instant refunds through Paypal to people on a whim and you can be left hanging. I think it works best for people who also have bricks and mortar stores and run it on top of that business and also when they move enough sales in terms of volume that they can afford to take hits from such unscrupulous people and still be profitable.

As to the tax question, it's also around 35% here and a good chance of being broken when you get it!
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Old 01-31-2016   #52
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Originally Posted by valdas View Post
And the let's think about the trade logic - when I buy an item for cash in the shop I pay VAT (or you in US - sales tax), but would you go back to the shop I say - look, I't wrong color, I want to exchange it for another, will you pay the tax the second time? The same logic for repaired items abroad should apply.
Actually, the same logic does apply. You don't have to pay VAT or tariffs twice if you exchange your item for another. Same with repairs, you only pay VAT on the work (repair bill).
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Old 01-31-2016   #53
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I don't earn enough money to play the honest citizen so, yes, I cheated. And don't feel the moral scruples about that.
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Old 01-31-2016   #54
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I did ask the seller on one occasion to allow me to pay for the item in two PayPal transactions for the item when it was clear that the seller can't have the item insured for the full amount at a sensible price. The item was in a really nice condition, the price was relatively high and I thought the half of what I paid (I presented only one PayPal transaction as a proof of purchase to the customs office) was a fair share my country should take a bite at. I really hate that they think shipping should be taxed too (although I understand the logic behind it).

Yes, I feel a bit bad about it. Because I cheated in MY country.

I never did know that marking the item as gift is illegal in US for a person. You declare and pay taxes on the money you make with selling used items?

On the other hand, I've been offered the "as gift" sending many times for my WTB ads after I informed the seller that their price is not really that attractive when I add some 25% to it (I do always state that I'm from EU in the ad).
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Old 01-31-2016   #55
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Originally Posted by Dante_Stella View Post
So for the people who are perpetually asking to undervalue items or declare them as gifts (this seems to me almost every other thing I try to sell on RFF) -

- Does it occur to you that if you ask sellers of items to do dishonest things that those sellers are going to regard you as dishonest?

- Do you realize that there are civil and criminal penalties in the U.S. for falsifying export forms? Or that a lot of us work in regulated industries where we are not going to put licenses in jeopardy (to any degree) for the sake of saving you a buck?

- What's your basic problem with following the law in your country or paying your taxes?

I regard paying taxes and duties to be a "cost of doing business" wherever you live. Those taxes and fees pay for things like national health care, comprehensive social welfare systems, and/or really good educational systems.

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Old 02-01-2016   #56
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I envy the countries that have a much higher import tax free value than Germany. We have to pay import taxes (19%) as soon as the tax would exceed 5€ and we also have to pay taxes for the shipping costs. Say I buy a dead camera in hopes of fixing it for 10€ and the shipping is 15€ or even more (easy with USPS) then I have to pay import tax over the added amount.
The worst thing here about the import tax is (really if it would be just the few euros I have to pay I'd be fine) that 4 out of 5 times I get something shipped to me, DHL is to lazy to do the declaration for me (like they are supposed to) and I have to go to the ONE customs office in Berlin (over 3 million people here) and sit there for 2-3 hours (plus 1h traveling time)!
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Old 02-01-2016   #57
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Originally Posted by k__43 View Post
I envy the countries that have a much higher import tax free value than Germany. We have to pay import taxes (19%) as soon as the tax would exceed 5€ and we also have to pay taxes for the shipping costs. Say I buy a dead camera in hopes of fixing it for 10€ and the shipping is 15€ or even more (easy with USPS) then I have to pay import tax over the added amount.
The worst thing here about the import tax is (really if it would be just the few euros I have to pay I'd be fine) that 4 out of 5 times I get something shipped to me, DHL is to lazy to do the declaration for me (like they are supposed to) and I have to go to the ONE customs office in Berlin (over 3 million people here) and sit there for 2-3 hours (plus 1h traveling time)!
This this this, so much this

ok, it's 19% VAT... and it's + another 18% (or so) if the value exceeds 150€ (item + shipping)
You even have to pay the import taxes for (real) gifts, they want to see an invoice if someone from outside the EU wants to send you a gift

Once a friend of mine bought some really small item from China, 15 cent, free shipping. He had to go to the customs office here in Berlin and wait for around 2 hours to pick it up... and to pay nothing
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Old 02-01-2016   #58
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
So what.
If you don't want these requests simply specify your views and believes on taxes in the listing.
Your belief in the rule of law is such that you believe that people who intend to follow it should notify you. That's rich! I have problems with the way money in my country is spent, too--a huge proportion of it is wasted on the way to killing people; you are concerned about the tiny amount wasted on helping people. You need to re-examine your life, I think.
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Old 02-01-2016   #59
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I can't speak for everyone but importing stuff to Canada feels so random and arbitrary at times. I wouldn't ask someone to falsify customs forms but often it costs me less to ship something from Hong Kong or Japan or the UK, than from NY or California. Sometimes there's import duties, sometimes not and the rules aren't always clear on what or how things are taxed.

On the other hand I never had problems with things "disappearing" at customs or arriving damaged after inspection or anything.
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Old 02-01-2016   #60
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Try shipping something to Italy or Brazil or Russia if you want to see it disappear or take weeks to be cleared.

BTW, despite comments to the contrary earlier in the thread, it's easy to insure items (by third party) for a different amount than the customs declaration (yes, even those marked 'gift.')

Capital gains? Anyone selling gear for profit will file a business return or schedule C on their personal tax return. This isn't capital gains.
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Old 02-01-2016   #61
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Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
Marking an item a gift is not illegal, but it can cause insurance issues for the seller, if the item is lost. The details of insurance are pretty obvious.
I've always had the option to mark the item as gift and still have it insured for whatever amount (if insurance for destination country was available at all).
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Old 02-01-2016   #62
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Hi,

I often wonder what level taxes would be if everyone paid their share...

As for misspending, that's one of the joys of democracy. Having a good line in chat is the main requirement for politicians and then they are given control of billions to spend on things they don't/won't ever understand. But what's the alternative?

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Old 02-01-2016   #63
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Originally Posted by Filzkoeter View Post
This this this, so much this

ok, it's 19% VAT... and it's + another 18% (or so) if the value exceeds 150€ (item + shipping)
You even have to pay the import taxes for (real) gifts, they want to see an invoice if someone from outside the EU wants to send you a gift

Once a friend of mine bought some really small item from China, 15 cent, free shipping. He had to go to the customs office here in Berlin and wait for around 2 hours to pick it up... and to pay nothing

Yeah - it's funny how they hang the president's picture there (even the cheap cheat before Gauck) - kinda reminds me of Erich hanging in my class rooms back in primary school.
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Old 02-01-2016   #64
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Yeah - it's funny how they hang the president's picture there (even the cheap cheat before Gauck) - kinda reminds me of Erich hanging in my class rooms back in primary school.
Erich ? Erich Honecker ?
I thought that fashion of hanging the president's picture everywhere was mostly common in developing countries
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Old 02-01-2016   #65
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Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
You can insure an item for any amount you want to buy in the US, but the insurance will only pay for what you can prove as a value, usually they want a receipt. Meaning you cannot insure a brick as though it is made of gold.

Collectible cameras (old cameras no longer in production) are usually valued by the selling price, since there is really nothing else to use.

If there is no selling price, then the insurance company will need a receipt. Obviously there is no selling price is the item is a gift. The only possible way around this is if the item is sent to a third party, who then becomes the recipient of the gift. Then of course eBay does not protect anyone!

Play these games with customs... who knows? Nothing in it for me, but potential heartache.
OK, I wasn't aware you were talking about eBay. OP was about buyers on RFF.

And it sucks that you obviously can't have the parcel insured if there wasn't any money involved. So you transfer $1000 to your son so he can buy a camera from you and only THEN you can have it shipped to him (so you get back $1000 if it gets lost)? My god, you are even worse at making simple things complicated than us Europeans...
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Old 02-01-2016   #66
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Old 02-01-2016   #67
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When a stranger requests I commit a crime, I simply refuse.
But you'd do it for a friend anytime?

Joking aside, most (me included) probably didn't know that it's a crime in the US.
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Old 02-01-2016   #68
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Well not sure how to be understood, but there has to be some way to prove value, money has to figure in somewhere.

Receipt, advertised price, an appraisal, something to determine value, you can't just pick a value from thin air.

If you want to insure based on what you pay, then the insurance company has to agree on sentimental value. Even the actress who insures her legs, has to prove loss of potential income.

The Post Office, and UPS does not use sentimental value as valid, for that you need private insurance.
Who said anything about sentimental value?

Here, I pay for a delivery of a mail with specified value (yes, the value can be pulled out of thin air, but the postal clerk can make me describe the contents and then check them; I guess they can refuse to accept my mail if something is fishy). If the contents are damaged or the mail is lost I'm entitled to compensation in the amount of the damage (up to the amount that was specified as the value of my mail).

OK, now we know you don't have that in US.
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Old 02-01-2016   #69
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Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
Well not sure how to be understood, but there has to be some way to prove value, money has to figure in somewhere.

Receipt, advertised price, an appraisal, something to determine value, you can't just pick a value from thin air.

If you want to insure based on what you pay, then the insurance company has to agree on sentimental value. Even the actress who insures her legs, has to prove loss of potential income.

The Post Office, and UPS does not use sentimental value as valid, for that you need private insurance.
Just for fun:

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...val_info_e.htm

It shows how confusing it can be establishing value for the purposes of making a Customs declaration and paying whatever the attendant fees might be. I like the basic conclusion:
Quote:
Definition of transaction value

The price actually paid or payable is the total payment made or to be made by the buyer to or for the benefit of the seller for the imported goods, and includes all payments made as a condition of sale of the imported goods by the buyer to the seller, or by the buyer to a third party to satisfy an obligation of the seller.
In other words, if you paid $10 for the item on eBay, then that's the value for the purposes of Customs declaration.

As an aside (to others in this thread), I will say this once more - many of those in this thread who are complaining about the rate of taxation in their country are nevertheless failing to grasp the concept that this 'unfair' condition imposes no obligation on the seller. Why is it my problem that your country taxes you heavily? Why would you be angry at me for failing to help you cheat by putting my own butt on the line?

In other words, if Joe Schmoe in Elbonia gets taxed at 89% on widgets he buys overseas, and I sell poor Joe some widgets and ship them to him from the USA, it is a) not my fault that Elbonia has 'unfair tax rates' and b) I am not on the hook to help him get around those unfair rates. If Joe wants to get mad, Joe should direct his anger at his Elbonian government.
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Old 02-01-2016   #70
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The Post Office, and UPS does not use sentimental value as valid.
Given that many postal instruments are international standard, I suppose they might actually do where explicitly insured letters are concerned, unless that has changed within the last decade. At least German insured letters used to cover the full insurance sum, regardless of material value. When still doing studio photography, that made them my preferred transport for mailing original chromes to clients. When using registered letters or parcels, you were entitled to the equivalent length of film in case they were lost...
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Old 02-01-2016   #71
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No postal service anywhere in the world will PAY more than the value of the item if it is lost, however they will let you insure it for any amount you set.
There are MANY countries where you are compensated in the amount of direct DAMAGE to the contents.

So, a book is not simply worth the weight of paper when you mail it.
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Old 02-01-2016   #72
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Aside from small value items, the duty/tax for importing from either the USA or Japan (the two main possible markets) render importing an expensive business. Fortunately there is no import duty/tax for items sourced in Europe.

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Old 02-01-2016   #73
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Aside from small value items, the duty/tax for importing from either the USA or Japan (the two main possible markets) render importing an expensive business. Fortunately there is no import duty/tax for items sourced in Europe.

James
That is true, but for some items the supply is so limited in Europe. I was looking for Fuji GA645 and ended up buying from Japanese seller, even after 24% Finnish VAT and the duty it was still cheaper than any European seller would offer...
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Old 02-01-2016   #74
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Aside from small value items, the duty/tax for importing from either the USA or Japan (the two main possible markets) render importing an expensive business.
Well, there are a few things where this is true, as there are high protective penal duties in place (bicycles, for example, with 80%). But in general, duties are negligible (4% on most things photographic) and the only thing you have to pay at the customs office is the VAT (19%, in Germany) which also is applied to every domestic purchase, so there is no difference there.

The real nuisance is that you have to appear at the customs office for collection - and in the early 2000s (not apprehending the era of ebay and alibaba) they closed some 95% of customs offices in aggressive cost-cutting measures, so these are as rare as hen's teeth. In my case it means travelling to the most remote and least accessible corner of town (barred behind a traffic jam for most of the day), to a place opened only during my own regular working hours, to stand there in line for an hour or three while the custom officers perform some bizarre pantomime of slow motion work almost as fast and energetic as mating slugs on a cold day. And I am privileged to be in one of the metropolitan areas. If you happen to live in a small town or out in the country, throw in another two hour trip to the state capital, and even more limited opening hours...
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Old 02-01-2016   #75
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Well, there are a few things where this is true, as there are high protective penal duties in place (bicycles, for example, with 80%). But in general, duties are negligible (4% on most things photographic) and the only thing you have to pay at the customs office is the VAT (19%, in Germany) which also is applied to every domestic purchase, so there is no difference there.

The real nuisance is that you have to appear at the customs office for collection - and in the early 2000s (not apprehending the era of ebay and alibaba) they closed some 95% of customs offices in aggressive cost-cutting measures, so these are as rare as hen's teeth. In my case it means travelling to the most remote and least accessible corner of town (barred behind a traffic jam for most of the day), to a place opened only during my own regular working hours, to stand there in line for an hour or three while the custom officers perform some bizarre pantomime of slow motion work almost as fast and energetic as mating slugs on a cold day. And I am privileged to be in one of the metropolitan areas. If you happen to live in a small town or out in the country, throw in another two hour trip to the state capital, and even more limited opening hours...
That really sounds bad. At least in Finland one can ask Postal office to clear it - all by email. I just provide the description, proof of value (purchasing documents) and email to them. Postal service will clear, and deliver to my door and issue an invoice in a week or so (they charge 20 EUR for this service).
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Old 02-01-2016   #76
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As an aside (to others in this thread), I will say this once more - many of those in this thread who are complaining about the rate of taxation in their country are nevertheless failing to grasp the concept that this 'unfair' condition imposes no obligation on the seller.
I don't really see that in this thread. I am quite sure that people holding a seller responsible for actions of any government are in the minority.
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Old 02-01-2016   #77
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Scandinavia has the reputation of being much more socially logical than the rest of the world.
I'm pretty sure you can request a reassessment of the value of the package anywhere
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Old 02-01-2016   #78
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Scandinavia has the reputation of being much more socially logical than the rest of the world.
Ask a Dane about Danish post.
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Old 02-01-2016   #79
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Old 02-01-2016   #80
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I'm pretty sure you can request a reassessment of the value of the package anywhere
Hereabouts not remotely. I can pre-arrange for the seller to send it by courier service rather than by post - at roughly twenty times the price of the latter. If it goes through the customs at the hands of the German Post and the customs for whatever reasons determine that a payment might be due, the Post refuses any further involvement, and it is between me, personally, and the customs - where the latter only offer pick-up. Within two weeks, or it will be destroyed, returned or auctioned off at the discretion of the customs office.
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