Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Leicas and other Leica Mount Cameras > Leica M9 / ME

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Food for Thought: Puts on Leica
Old 03-04-2015   #1
splitimageview
Registered User
 
splitimageview is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,028
Food for Thought: Puts on Leica

Just posted on fb:

Every time that Leica starts to issue special models of the M-series one is inclined to become suspicious about the state of the Leica company. There was a peak in M6 special models at the end of its commercial life and there is now a peak of special models of the M9 and M cameras. The recently announced change of CEO is another indication that the Leica company is not in the feel-good-shape that the new headquarters in Wetzlar try to convey on the visitors.

Some time ago I wrote about the smartphone-menace to mainstream photography and Leica tried to counter this trend with the Leica T. I was alone in noting that the T was not a smart product (the rest of the world gave the camera the usual designations of ‘milestone’, ‘innovative’, ‘brilliant’ and so on. Words are easy to employ! Now there are serious indications that the sales of the T are not as hoped for.

I was also almost alone in noting that any M (with whatever specifications) has a limited sales appeal for a limited group of persons, not necessary photographers and that sales of M cameras after a peak will inevitably drop. This is a marketing and engineering problem, because the double goal of preserving the DNA of the CRF and creating a totally new and modern CRF is like squaring the circle. The Fuji X-series has some success, undoubtedly, as a modern version of a classic CRF, but lacks the true DNA of the Leica CRF.

The smartphone has almost killed the compact digital camera and in this segment the D-C-V and X series of Leica are the obvious victims. Add to all of this the tremendous success of Apple’s iPhone 6 and the recent campaign by Apple to promote the photographic capabilities of the ‘6’ and it is clear that the compact digital camera will be extinct in the near future. Many observers have remarked that the main problem of the current generation of high quality digital cameras (dSLRs and dCRF) is the fact that modern electronics are embodied in traditional ‘analog’-camera bodies that are not easy to use for the iPad and smartphone generation. It is indeed preposterous that you need to wade through hundreds of pages of manual for a product that only should need a few very simple actions to work.

Compare the Leica M-A with the Leica M and you see what I mean.

When Leica announced the intention to grow tenfold it was clear that the then current range of products was not suitable as a platform to support such an ambitious goal. Not only the product portfolio, but also the company’s infrastructure, organization and culture were not suited to accomplish this goal. It is one to build a larger factory, buy new machines and hire additional people, but it is two to make it happen. Captain Kirk and his Vulcan companion might be able to achieve this, but for mortals it is a different story.

The string of problems that have erupted from the Leica factory are an indication that the combination of fast product introduction and higher production levels cannot be handled with good success, at least not by a company with the Leica-Solms heritage. I am sure Blackstone has observed these events with growing concern and has acted as any investor who looks exclusively at the return on investments would have done. I am also sure that this (the ambitious goals) is the reason why Hermes pulled out of the company after discussions with Lee.

In discussions with Leica personnel, there is ofter a reference with the Porsche analogy. Porsche started as a high-quality low volume niche producer and managed to evolve into a high-quality-high volume special product manufacturer. Leica seems to want to follow the same route, but lacks one distinctive commodity.

This is for the next story.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #2
kbg32
neo-romanticist
 
kbg32's Avatar
 
kbg32 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 5,592
The distinctive commodity might be a forward thinking CEO/managerial staff. I just hope they don't fail like Kodak did.
__________________
Keith

http://keithgoldstein.me/
Keith’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #3
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 65
Posts: 3,310
Leica's digital RFs are probably just a stop-gap measure in what appears from the long view as their inexorable decline in camera relevance that started decades ago. The problem now is the same one from the 70's. Not enough buyers willing to stake their photographic aspirations to Leica's expensive cameras. Leica may have to migrate eventually to the Zeiss model: glass, glass, and more glass.
__________________
--Mike

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #4
skibeerr
Registered User
 
skibeerr's Avatar
 
skibeerr is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne Vic
Age: 57
Posts: 1,074
I love Leica M and it's glass but...

No bigger company wants to touch m mount digital rf, shows how niche Leica is. If the numbers where there it would have happened.

So only one player sets the price, no problem if the quality is there.
See film cameras and lenses. Never touched a digital Leica.

The thing that annoys me the most is the empty marketing spin Leica spouts, reading their Blurb turns my stomach.
The Guy responsible for this is going to lead the company ....
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #5
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
 
noisycheese is offline
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,287
I don't expect Leica to go down the tubes - if they can survive the upheaval of early 2005, I think they will be resourceful and resilient enough to overcome the current challenges which seem to be much less threatening than the situation in early 2005 was.
__________________
The Leica M passion: From the inside it's hard to explain; from the outside it's hard to understand.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #6
uhoh7
Registered User
 
uhoh7 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,810
Very interesting post. Link is down so I wonder if he has reconsidered LOL

Anyway I don't plan to fret much about Leica future. I just enjoy the present.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #7
fireblade
Vincenzo.
 
fireblade's Avatar
 
fireblade is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,143
.........."When Leica announced the intention to grow tenfold it was clear that the then current range of products was not suitable as a platform to support such an ambitious goal. Not only the product portfolio, but also the company’s infrastructure, organization and culture were not suited to accomplish this goal."


This ^^^^.
__________________
Vincenzo

"No place is boring, if you've had a good night's sleep and have a pocket full of unexposed film."
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #8
Harry Lime
Practitioner
 
Harry Lime's Avatar
 
Harry Lime is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Here and there
Posts: 1,675
I purchased a demo 240 a while back a good price and here is my personal take on Leica. For the record I'm coming up on 20 years with the M series.

a) they have completely priced themselves out of the market. I know that manufacturing costs in Germany are high, but even that does not excuse the pricetag Leica is asking. Their customer base has become the 1% and the problem with that is that there are few professional photographers and artist in that tax bracket. How many Leicas are being purchased as status symbols or expensive gifts? The problem with that trend is that your prodcut becomes a fashion item and like all trends eventually falls out of favor.

b) from a technological standpoint the M series is in desperate need of a more sophisticated metering system. Digital is very unforgiving. If you miss exposure by a stop you may totally clip your highlights. This was almost impossible to do in the days of negative film. I used to shoot my film M bodies in total confidence in all lighting conditions and fast moving situations. I don't feel that I can trust the 240 like Tri-X or my D600 and have been burned on several occasions in fast moving situations where the light changes drastically. And please don't tell me not ot blame my tools and all of that. I've been shooting for over 25 years with manual cameras and mastered that skill a long time ago. The M series needs a matrix metering system reading off the prism system of the RF unit. Maybe Leica should spend some money on R&D instead of these stupid special editions.
I'm getting to the point that I will probably go back to shooting Tri-X in my analog M bodies and get a Fuji X100T or D750 for color work. Which brings me to point C

C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.


www.felidigiorgio.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #9
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,015
They are too fkn expensive...Leica cut its own throat...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-04-2015   #10
trisberg
Registered User
 
trisberg's Avatar
 
trisberg is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
I purchased a demo 240 a while back a good price and here is my personal take on Leica. For the record I'm coming up on 20 years with the M series.

a) they have completely priced themselves out of the market. I know that manufacturing costs in Germany are high, but even that does not excuse the pricetag Leica is asking. Their customer base has become the 1% and the problem with that is that there are few professional photographers and artist in that tax bracket. How many Leicas are being purchased as status symbols or expensive gifts? The problem with that trend is that your prodcut becomes a fashion item and like all trends eventually falls out of favor.

b) from a technological standpoint the M series is in desperate need of a more sophisticated metering system. Digital is very unforgiving. If you miss exposure by a stop you may totally clip your highlights. This was almost impossible to do in the days of negative film. I used to shoot my film M bodies in total confidence in all lighting conditions and fast moving situations. I don't feel that I can trust the 240 like Tri-X or my D600 and have been burned on several occasions in fast moving situations where the light changes drastically. And please don't tell me not ot blame my tools and all of that. I've been shooting for over 25 years with manual cameras and mastered that skill a long time ago. The M series needs a matrix metering system reading off the prism system of the RF unit. Maybe Leica should spend some money on R&D instead of these stupid special editions.
I'm getting to the point that I will probably go back to shooting Tri-X in my analog M bodies and get a Fuji X100T or D750 for color work. Which brings me to point C

C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.


www.felidigiorgio.com
This is pretty close to my own experience although I had an M9 that I recently sold. I agree with all three points you made, and I do like my new X100T .

-Thomas
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #11
john_s
Registered User
 
john_s is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
.......The M series needs a matrix metering system reading off the prism system of the RF unit. Maybe Leica should spend some money on R&D instead of these stupid special editions................
The problem here is that a special edition costs almost nothing to make over the standard model: just a few bits of text on the body, an announcement of the limited numbers, maybe a slightly different finish, etc.

I'm very happy with my film M cameras (they are the most ordinary ones that exist). I don't have the courage to face the digital Leica scene. Nikons are for that.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #12
Kwesi
Registered User
 
Kwesi is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
I purchased a demo 240 a while back a good price and here is my personal take on Leica. For the record I'm coming up on 20 years with the M series.

...

C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.


www.felidigiorgio.com
This bit of " conventional wisdom" seems to come up quite often here on RFF.

1- A used film MP sells for about $2500. That's about 50% off its new price even its only a year old. Obviously film cameras are not immune to depreciation.
2- a digital M will easily last for 10 years. At that point haven't you got your money's worth out of it?
I don't understand this irrational fear of depreciation.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #13
Sparrow
Registered User
 
Sparrow's Avatar
 
Sparrow is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perfidious Albion
Age: 67
Posts: 12,451
Firstly ... what the executive-board say to their Merchant bankers and the press (as I understand it the investors have preference shares as well as almost half the ordinaries) and what they say to each other could well be quite different

Secondly ... just because the directors write the budget, and get the management accounts each month don't imagine they know exactly what's going on, they won't ... and it's not as simple as all about the bottom line ... it's the top line they look at, miss the sales budget for three consecutive months and you'll attract lots of interest from the moneymen, one just needs to provide them an excuse even if you're showing a profit and generating cash

Lastly ... Merchant bankers and venture capital always enjoy change, as do the analysts not to mention the lawyers, they make their money during change. So if they get half a chance they'll flog off their gran just to drum up a bit of trade for there mates and have something to brag about in the pub later ...
__________________
Regards Stewart

Stewart McBride

RIP 2015



You’re only young once, but one can always be immature.

flickr stuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #14
Timmyjoe
Registered User
 
Timmyjoe's Avatar
 
Timmyjoe is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
Lastly ... Merchant bankers and venture capital always enjoy change, as do the analysts not to mention the lawyers, they make their money during change. So if they get half a chance they'll flog off their gran just to drum up a bit of trade for there mates and have something to brag about in the pub later ...
There is a whole series of jokes disparaging the law profession, "Did you hear about the lawyer who . . .?" and "What do you call a busload of lawyers going off a cliff?" As mean spirited as those jokes are, I think replacing lawyer with merchant banker or venture capitalist, and then making the jokes far more mean spirited, would be totally justified.

Just sayin'
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #15
agfa100
Registered User
 
agfa100 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 257
You may have forgotten with the Porsche analogy, there was a time when things were not good at Porsche and they talked to Toyota about their production issues. Toyota came in and told them what they needed to change and the rest is history. Not with the product but how to build it and make a profit.
My take on Leica is the product is the issue plus the production problems and QC, plus now the money side is not happy also. Maybe they should go the Zeiss way, lenses, lenses, lenses. But if I was so smart, why am I so poor.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #16
Sparrow
Registered User
 
Sparrow's Avatar
 
Sparrow is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perfidious Albion
Age: 67
Posts: 12,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
There is a whole series of jokes disparaging the law profession, "Did you hear about the lawyer who . . .?" and "What do you call a busload of lawyers going off a cliff?" As mean spirited as those jokes are, I think replacing lawyer with merchant banker or venture capitalist, and then making the jokes far more mean spirited, would be totally justified.

Just sayin'
... good and bad in every profession ... mine has become a personal friend over the years (solicitor) and bankers are ethical on a personal level, but the system changes in the 1980s and 90s don't really give them much chance to demonstrate it these days, even at my lowly SME level ... as the joke goes

Q ... how can you tell the difference between a none-executive director and a supermarket trolly?


A ... sometimes a supermarket trolly has a mind of its own
__________________
Regards Stewart

Stewart McBride

RIP 2015



You’re only young once, but one can always be immature.

flickr stuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #17
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,365
Article mentions the Leica T, a model unknown to me, not meeting it's sales targets.

Looked it up. It's a mirrorless ILC. With an 18-56 f/3.5-5.6 lens, it's $3600 today at B&H.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #18
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Article mentions the Leica T, a model unknown to me, not meeting it's sales targets.

Looked it up. It's a mirrorless ILC. With an 18-56 f/3.5-5.6 lens, it's $3600 today at B&H.
Yep, even in Leica terms it is priced about twice as high as it should be...
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #19
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
I purchased a demo 240 a while back a good price and here is my personal take on Leica. For the record I'm coming up on 20 years with the M series.

a) they have completely priced themselves out of the market. I know that manufacturing costs in Germany are high, but even that does not excuse the pricetag Leica is asking. Their customer base has become the 1% and the problem with that is that there are few professional photographers and artist in that tax bracket. How many Leicas are being purchased as status symbols or expensive gifts? The problem with that trend is that your prodcut becomes a fashion item and like all trends eventually falls out of favor.

b) from a technological standpoint the M series is in desperate need of a more sophisticated metering system. Digital is very unforgiving. If you miss exposure by a stop you may totally clip your highlights. This was almost impossible to do in the days of negative film. I used to shoot my film M bodies in total confidence in all lighting conditions and fast moving situations. I don't feel that I can trust the 240 like Tri-X or my D600 and have been burned on several occasions in fast moving situations where the light changes drastically. And please don't tell me not ot blame my tools and all of that. I've been shooting for over 25 years with manual cameras and mastered that skill a long time ago. The M series needs a matrix metering system reading off the prism system of the RF unit. Maybe Leica should spend some money on R&D instead of these stupid special editions.
I'm getting to the point that I will probably go back to shooting Tri-X in my analog M bodies and get a Fuji X100T or D750 for color work. Which brings me to point C

C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.


www.felidigiorgio.com
Harry, I feel your pain but all of this digital stuff has a shelf life. As far as price goes I remember the time when Leica M was more than twice the price of the top of the line Canons and Nikons. Now Leica M is about the same. This digital gear is all insanely expensive and it will all die at some point in time and will not have the longevity of an all mechanical camera.

But the way I look at it is I have been shooting with my MM for over 2 years now and over 30K images. Those are all images I may or may not have made. In that time i have had 2 one man exhibits and I was in a juried show. These are all image I probably wouldn't have made.

I have had more trouble with all 4 of my Canon DSLRs by 2 years and 30K than I have with my MM. Which is in my opinion Leica's finest digital camera and a camera that is a real alternative.

The lenses you will not loose money on. Leica bodies are like all other DSLR bodies and will loose but not at the same rate you loose with say Canon or Nikon when they come out with a new flavor of the day.

I buy a camera to shoot with not as an investment. And if I can get 100K+ out of it then it's a tool and I made a lot of images and got a lot of enjoyment from it. For me it is worth the price to find a tool that fits the way I see and work so well.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #20
ChrisLivsey
Registered User
 
ChrisLivsey's Avatar
 
ChrisLivsey is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,066
You think Leica digital is bad for depreciation?

2008 Hasselblad H3DII 39 body only £21,502.50
2015 e-bay sales around £3,500, those asking £5,000+ don't sell.

And yes, rumours are Hasselblad "could be doing better".
__________________
Fishing for shadows in a pool.
Louis Macneice

http://www.flickr.com/photos/red_eyes_man/
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #21
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,329
Very well written and thought out splitimageview.

One thing about Porsche, while they deserve credit for their evolution, they had a strong business partner in VW. Porsche Automobil Holding SE owns just over 50% of VW.

Canon, Fujifilm, Pentax, Panasonic and, of course, SONY have diverse product lines that generate cash flow to sustain photography. Olympus has a strong medical life sciences and industrial imaging business. Leica and Nikon can't depend on non-photography products for significant cash flow support. (Yes, I know Nikon and Leica also sell non-photography products too.)

Leica needs a partner.
__________________
Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form.
Garry Winogrand
williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #22
ChipMcD
Registered User
 
ChipMcD is offline
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
I purchased a demo 240 a while back a good price and here is my personal take on Leica. For the record I'm coming up on 20 years with the M series.

a) they have completely priced themselves out of the market. I know that manufacturing costs in Germany are high, but even that does not excuse the pricetag Leica is asking. Their customer base has become the 1% and the problem with that is that there are few professional photographers and artist in that tax bracket. How many Leicas are being purchased as status symbols or expensive gifts? The problem with that trend is that your prodcut becomes a fashion item and like all trends eventually falls out of favor.

b) from a technological standpoint the M series is in desperate need of a more sophisticated metering system. Digital is very unforgiving. If you miss exposure by a stop you may totally clip your highlights. This was almost impossible to do in the days of negative film. I used to shoot my film M bodies in total confidence in all lighting conditions and fast moving situations. I don't feel that I can trust the 240 like Tri-X or my D600 and have been burned on several occasions in fast moving situations where the light changes drastically. And please don't tell me not ot blame my tools and all of that. I've been shooting for over 25 years with manual cameras and mastered that skill a long time ago. The M series needs a matrix metering system reading off the prism system of the RF unit. Maybe Leica should spend some money on R&D instead of these stupid special editions.
I'm getting to the point that I will probably go back to shooting Tri-X in my analog M bodies and get a Fuji X100T or D750 for color work. Which brings me to point C

C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.


www.felidigiorgio.com
These are good points. I'm done with digital Leicas and will probably get rid of my M9. I've got good solutions for color in my Nikon and Olympus cameras, and as good as the lenses are, the quality difference is not enough to justify the cost of the Leica digital bodies, at least not for me. Fortunately, I still shoot film, and so I can continue to enjoy that Leica glass with my M3 and MP bodies. Another poster suggested that Leica might focus on glass, rather than full cameras, as Zeiss has. I hope that it does, because it does make some sweet lenses.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #23
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
 
Dante_Stella's Avatar
 
Dante_Stella is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
C) I can't afford to hold on to the 240 for an extended period, because like all electronics it depreciates rapidly with age. All digital cameras have this problem, but there is a big difference between a $2000 camera depreciating over 3-4 years and a Leica M at $8000. I'm not wealthy enough to ignore that fact.
Cameras depreciate the fastest from new to used on day one. Holding a camera to the point the market price is relatively stable is the way to defeat this (the Leica cost of ownership in years 4 and 5 is very low). Dumping a camera quickly is the way to get hosed.

That said, Leica's pricing seems to operate on two levels. One is the theoretical list price (which need not be respected so long as that is not advertised). The other is the limitless supply of lower-priced "demos," which vastly outstrips the stated reasons why they exist. Has Leica used hundreds of M 240s at trade shows? Highly, highly doubtful. If you bought a demo, depreciation would be a non-issue.

Dante
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #24
YYV_146
Registered User
 
YYV_146's Avatar
 
YYV_146 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Age: 32
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwesi View Post
This bit of " conventional wisdom" seems to come up quite often here on RFF.

1- A used film MP sells for about $2500. That's about 50% off its new price even its only a year old. Obviously film cameras are not immune to depreciation.
2- a digital M will easily last for 10 years. At that point haven't you got your money's worth out of it?
I don't understand this irrational fear of depreciation.
Even if I use the same camera over 10 years (which I won't because it's not a viable way to stay competitive in either commercial or personal work), the Leica M depreciation costs ~$750 per year. This is assuming that the camera works for ten years with no need of repair or service. If it breaks in year 4-9, costs are going to go up.

Making the more reasonable assumption of purchase and resale in 3 years, my estimation is that depreciation is upwards of $1,200 per year. I can afford the latest and greatest digital body every year, then sell it on the cheap side, and still take a smaller hit.
__________________
Victor is too lazy for DSLRs

Sony A7rII Kolari mod

Noctilux ASPH, 35lux FLE, 50 APO ASPH, 75 APO cron, 21lux, Sony/Minolta 135mm STF

500px
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #25
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,015
Leica just needs to find more rich customers..or..lower their pricing..
Maybe a diamond studded Leica M..with rubies on all the buttons..and an emerald or 2 for spice...yeah...that's the ticket...sapphire anyone..?
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #26
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
... good and bad in every profession ... mine has become a personal friend over the years (solicitor) and bankers are ethical on a personal level, but the system changes in the 1980s and 90s don't really give them much chance to demonstrate it these days....
As my brother (an activist lawyer who fights unethical corporate types, polluters, and other ne'er-do-wells) says, "you need to fight fire with fire." Probably the best way to address the 'system' is to learn it well and fight it from within. It might not seem like it (there's not a lot of media coverage) but there actually are quite a lot of young people out there doing a lot of work behind the scenes trying to keep the 'system' in check.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #27
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
 
noisycheese is offline
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,287
I am at a loss to understand the umbrage some folks take over Leica's prices - while there are clearly several cameras that are much more outrageously priced, to wit:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...LR_Camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lr_camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...um_format.html

and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html

Why the blind rage over Leica M lens and body prices while Hasselblad gets a free pass?? It makes no sense.
__________________
The Leica M passion: From the inside it's hard to explain; from the outside it's hard to understand.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #28
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
 
noisycheese is offline
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireblade View Post
"When Leica announced the intention to grow tenfold it was clear that the then current range of products was not suitable as a platform to support such an ambitious goal. Not only the product portfolio, but also the company’s infrastructure, organization and culture were not suited to accomplish this goal."


This ^^^^.
Perhaps a growth rate of 10x was unrealistic, given the current product lineup. Growth is good - to a point.
When growth for the sake of growth becomes a company's prime reason for existing, its sine qua non - trouble is pretty much inevitable.

Leica does not need to try to eat Nikon and Canon's lunch,, and they are certainly not going to do it with their current product portfolio.

If they want to challenge Niko-anon, they are going to need to start spewing out $1300 to $2300 DSLRs and $300 to $1200 lenses at the rate of 100,000 per day, like Niko-anon does. Those DSLRs and lenses would obviously be built down to a given price point, making them LINOs, Leicas In Name Only.

Leica is what it is. They need to just be the best Leica they can be and not try to be the General Motors of camera makers.

Making a billion dollars profit every five seconds should not be their prime directive. That is nothing other than the path to destruction.
__________________
The Leica M passion: From the inside it's hard to explain; from the outside it's hard to understand.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #29
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 65
Posts: 3,156
Camera brands around the world are suffering. Sales have dropped off the proverbial cliff. Even though Leica has been doing somewhat better this does not mean that they do not have similar problems.

Investment companies need returns. They live and die on those returns. They are all trying hard to beat the Dow and the S&P. Of course, as we all know, no one does that very long.

These investment companies need their returns to improve. So they pressure their investments to improve. Leica is under pressure anytime their sales for the current quarter drop below the sales from the previous year's quarter.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #30
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
 
sevo is offline
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Posts: 6,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisycheese View Post
Leica is what it is. They need to just be the best Leica they can be and not try to be the General Motors of camera makers.
The problem however is that the former General Motors and Fords of the camera industry are rapidly shrinking, into a niche of yet uncertain size. A niche within a niche might turn out to be too small for Leica.

Even if the collapse should only affect the compacts and bottom end DSLRs, the current licensing model will contribute much less to Leica's income than it did back when Panasonic still were selling millions of compacts with Leica branded lenses.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #31
Manuel Patino
Registered User
 
Manuel Patino is offline
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 164
I don't think one can compare Leica with an automobile manufacturer. It's just not the same thing unless it's a brand like Ferrari, Bugatti, Etc.
One only "needs" a beat up old used car to get from A to B. From that point up it's a mixture of desire for expensive, exclusive brands or perhaps for the exceptional professional, the best tool for the job.

If capitalists buy Leica for fast bottom line, quick profits above all else, they will probably kill the camera side of the company. However, if Leica continues to make excellent (albeit expensive) playthings for some and great tools for others, it will continue to thrive.
Yes, I do agree that the Leica prices are very high. I had to swallow hard to buy my (used) M240 and the 5of1.5 Lux. But really, my MFT Olympus great is not really "cheap" either. Sure, Leica could probably sell more cameras for half the price, but probably not twice as many....

Another thing is the iPhone issue. First of all, the iPhone is no camera. It cannot replace any half decent camera for real photography work. Sure, for the average Facebook user and selfie shooting teenager or exhibitionist, the smart phone is quite good. But lets not forget. Cheap it is "not". An iPhone or similar costs many hundreds of dollars plus thousands of dollars in yearly fees... For texting, phone and communications, they are pretty good, but aside some exceptional cases, who can seriously consider shooting an assignment with an iPhone? Or even some personal shooting to print?
Maybe digital photo cameras will lose much of their market share, but I doubt that iPhones will supplant them completely. At least not for me.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #32
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
Leica just needs to find more rich customers..or..lower their pricing..
Maybe a diamond studded Leica M..with rubies on all the buttons..and an emerald or 2 for spice...yeah...that's the ticket...sapphire anyone..?
They just need to keep making a camera that people can't get elsewhere like the MM. It is the only FF B&W only rangefinder at any price. And Leica M is the same price as top of the line Canon and Nikons so they are no more expensive than thsoe two and there in really no competition because the other two do not make a rangefinder.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #33
skibeerr
Registered User
 
skibeerr's Avatar
 
skibeerr is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne Vic
Age: 57
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisycheese View Post
I am at a loss to understand the umbrage some folks take over Leica's prices - while there are clearly several cameras that are much more outrageously priced, to wit:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...LR_Camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lr_camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...um_format.html

and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html

Why the blind rage over Leica M lens and body prices while Hasselblad gets a free pass?? It makes no sense.

Noisycheese, you are comparing professional mixers with a Kitchenaid.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #34
MikeDimit
Registered User
 
MikeDimit's Avatar
 
MikeDimit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sofia,Bulgaria
Posts: 161
A century ago Leica made a revolution in photography. It is time for a new one. How about they produce a scanner with 50 megapixel resolution? I do not get it. As a whole digital megapixel race is about to put more and more pixels in 36*24mm or less matrix and look at them with better and better software. It is like making a contact copy from a negative and convince everybody to buy better magnifying optical glass and when that technical advantage is worn out to produce some electronic miracle microscope to see better that tiny 36*24mm matrix. I am dreaming of an electronic "photographic paper" . Same process as in wet lab but instead of wet paper I would use electronic sheet and the result will PS or LR or whatever.
__________________
Life is too serious to be taken seriously.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikedimit/
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #35
YYV_146
Registered User
 
YYV_146's Avatar
 
YYV_146 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Age: 32
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisycheese View Post
I am at a loss to understand the umbrage some folks take over Leica's prices - while there are clearly several cameras that are much more outrageously priced, to wit:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...LR_Camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lr_camera.html and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...um_format.html

and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_With.html

Why the blind rage over Leica M lens and body prices while Hasselblad gets a free pass?? It makes no sense.
If you have ever used a Hassy MFDB...they are completely different cameras compared to anything Leica has ever made, and Canon and Nikon as well for that matter. They are special tools for special purposes, of which there really isn't any viable, cheaper alternatives. The prices are so high because demand is low, and photographers who can afford to use these in commercial capacity won't care if it's $3,000 or 30,000.

I can get better output than a digital M from many cheaper bodies.
__________________
Victor is too lazy for DSLRs

Sony A7rII Kolari mod

Noctilux ASPH, 35lux FLE, 50 APO ASPH, 75 APO cron, 21lux, Sony/Minolta 135mm STF

500px
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #36
Colin Corneau
Colin Corneau
 
Colin Corneau is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winnipeg MB Canada
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Bojic View Post
... I'm ready to buy a TRUE LEICA PRO camera and keep using it for a decade.....
And that's why almost every camera manufacturer is in decline.
__________________
www.reservedatalltimes.com

"Viva Film Renaissance"
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #37
Kwesi
Registered User
 
Kwesi is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Bojic View Post
Ask Nikon to make the shutter. I want it to be a super fast, super dry "TA-TAK". I want my hand to squeeze that thing and I want it to make me salivate. Just like any film M.
Not the current "tak-tdzerek-tchik-thclak-tdzeeeek.. Light blinking and never stopping..." Present digital Ms where I'm never sure if I cought the moment and if the shutter didn't break.

I want to know that the shutter goes to 300K. I wanna see the future
leicas for sale in classifieds with 250k clicks on them, not the current 9k clicks! What we see with the current M digital line is just not What Leica is SUPPOSED to be about.
Talk is cheap Ned,
Prove that you are really pissed off by selling your M9.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #38
nightfly
Registered User
 
nightfly is offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,917
Buy Konost or stick the M inards and mount into the T body (which seem like what Konost is essentially doing) and make a more affordable line.

Get rid of the sub full frame stuff.

Stop putting your name on Panasonic point and shoots.

If you want to be high end, be high end. You're living off the equity of your brand, don't dilute it.

Have a line that is a pure function with a modern T like body and a heritage line for rich people that like the status and retro look. Charge a premium for it but basically make one set of innards and two bodies and wrap the premium one in rare animals and the foreskin of rhinoceros and charge more money for it (lord knows you've got this down).

Get some cameras in the hands of respected photographers and have them pimp for you.

Most pros abandoned rangefinders for SLRs 5 decades ago. You're not getting them back in quantity but your Magnum kinda guys are who you want to keep the mystique alive.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #39
Sparrow
Registered User
 
Sparrow's Avatar
 
Sparrow is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perfidious Albion
Age: 67
Posts: 12,451
... if only Leica realised that is all about what Ned wants eh? ... we could have sorted this out years ago ...

... sorry Ned
__________________
Regards Stewart

Stewart McBride

RIP 2015



You’re only young once, but one can always be immature.

flickr stuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-05-2015   #40
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,898
Does this mean that I have to contact a new CEO?
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 23:02.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.