Old 08-13-2012   #121
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Jees . . . okay . . . mis-communication from some Kodak guy, a weak thread title (missing a question mark ?) . . . the OP scrambled for verification while the mob nipped at his heels . . . . time to drop it ? . . . or throw another dog in the pit ?
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Old 08-13-2012   #122
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. . . or throw another dog in the pit ?
... are you volunteering for pit duty? Ha ha ha.
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Old 08-13-2012   #123
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How familiar is your 'contractor' with running modern fllm lines?

And conversion (from mother rolls to 35mm)? And perforation? And packaging...

And... um... Land can be worth more than the return you'd get from running coating lines on it. Ask Sterling (late of Bombay).

Cheers,

R.
Hi Roger I'm interested to hear what you know about Sterling. I used some Sterling B&W film when I was in India a few years ago and it wasn't bad at all. Are they no more?
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Old 08-13-2012   #124
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... are you volunteering for pit duty? Ha ha ha.
No . . my fightin' days are over . . . I'm strictly sex, booze and Rock&Roll nowadays !
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Old 08-13-2012   #125
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Hi Roger I'm interested to hear what you know about Sterling. I used some Sterling B&W film when I was in India a few years ago and it wasn't bad at all. Are they no more?
Alas, gone beyond, The land on which the coating line stood was worth so much that they sold it for a shopping mall or some such. Allegedly, both the old (ex-Agfa) and new (in house, never used) paper coating lines were disassembled and are in storage. As far as I know, they never coated film, though. I'm 99% sure (or more) that the film was a licensed product, but I forget exactly to whom. If they'd had a film coating line I think we'd have seen it on our factory visit.

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Old 08-13-2012   #126
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Does the production of say Tri-X require huge orders to run as batch to be feasible? Not at all according to a contractor who was telling that the min. order should be around $14K.
I was told the minimum order to RESPOOL Double-X into 100' cans was $10K. That's just a smaller size package. And this after more than several emails that went unanswered.
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Old 08-13-2012   #127
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I really should know better than to even type this, but as there are clearly still some people struggling with comprehension or the reasons I posted in the first place I'll attempt to be utterly clear.

...

Finally I want to say a quick thanks to Roger for help clearing up the issue so quickly, and with the best possible answer,
and to KM-25, and those that I received PMs from
A classy response to what to me appears to be unfair treatment here.

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Wow!!!!!
Old 08-13-2012   #128
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Wow!!!!!

Seven Hours and 143 posts later...

I have this vision of the villagers of Belrive, a small village outside of Geneva Switzerland, converging on the rumoured hiding place of Frankensteins Monster (the OP??). Armed with torches, pitchforks, meat cleavers, large knives, nooses and lots of drool, they are intent on the destruction of the monster, in a "kill the messenger" action due to his warning of the demise of "film". (well, a bit of compositional license, here)

I can only hope that the Monster will not resort to the last act of Victor Frankenstein's creation and retreat to the far north Arctic, where he will kill himself and burn his body to ashes, so the the world will never encounter his countenance again.

Hang in there, oh villified OP. This too will pass.
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Old 08-13-2012   #129
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Seven Hours and 143 posts later...

I have this vision of the villagers of Belrive, a small village outside of Geneva Switzerland, converging on the rumoured hiding place of Frankensteins Monster (the OP??). Armed with torches, pitchforks, meat cleavers, large knives, nooses and lots of drool, they are intent on the destruction of the monster, in a "kill the messenger" action due to his warning of the demise of "film". (well, a bit of compositional license, here)

I can only hope that the Monster will not resort to the last act of Victor Frankenstein's creation and retreat to the far north Arctic, where he will kill himself and burn his body to ashes, so the the world will never encounter his countenance again.

Hang in there, oh villified OP. This too will pass.
Hey, you forgot the axes, billhooks and scythes.

AUX ARMES, CITOYENS!

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-13-2012   #130
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Why a Kodak employee would reply with such news?

Its not April 1st. The only reason one could come up with is, the employee simply tried to pass on a rumor that must be going around Kodak offices.
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Oooops...
Old 08-13-2012   #131
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Oooops...

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Hey, you forgot the axes, billhooks and scythes.

AUX ARMES, CITOYENS!

Cheers,

R.
So easy to forget how many farm tools can be used to destroy defilers of farmers daughters.

As you mention it, I suspect that some forms of firearms were also possible in the early 1800's?.... right? That, however, might smack of less rending of the monsters body by the inflamed villagers.

Have to keep the story line as grisly as possible, much as in this thread.
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Old 08-13-2012   #132
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Alas, gone beyond, The land on which the coating line stood was worth so much that they sold it for a shopping mall or some such. Allegedly, both the old (ex-Agfa) and new (in house, never used) paper coating lines were disassembled and are in storage. As far as I know, they never coated film, though. I'm 99% sure (or more) that the film was a licensed product, but I forget exactly to whom. If they'd had a film coating line I think we'd have seen it on our factory visit.

Cheers,

R.
Thanks Roger. Too bad!
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Old 08-13-2012   #133
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So easy to forget how many farm tools can be used to destroy defilers of farmers daughters.

As you mention it, I suspect that some forms of firearms were also possible in the early 1800's?.... right? That, however, might smack of less rending of the monsters body by the inflamed villagers.

Have to keep the story line as grisly as possible, much as in this thread.
Interesting question. I really don't know when firearms would have become affordable to the peasantry. In the USA, they were in reasonably widespread use by the time of the Rebellion in the 1770s. In France or the rest of Europe? Just dunno. My unkind suspicion is that it wasn't until the 20th century, because that was when the bourgeoisie began to pass laws limiting their possession and use, though given the lag between social change and law, the mid-to-late 19th century might be more realistic. Before then, I think you'd need to be quite wealthy to own firearms. There's a school rule against carrying firearms at Winchester that dates from the late 18th century, from memory.

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R.
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Old 08-13-2012   #134
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... Rebellion in the 1770s...
Ahem. Rebellion?
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Old 08-13-2012   #135
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Why a Kodak employee would reply with such news?

Its not April 1st. The only reason one could come up with is, the employee simply tried to pass on a rumor that must be going around Kodak offices.
The even more simple reason would be that the outsourced, off-shore call centre staffer failed to find an answer on his computer system, and made something up.
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Old 08-13-2012   #136
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So easy to forget how many farm tools can be used to destroy defilers of farmers daughters.
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Old 08-13-2012   #137
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Ahem. Rebellion?
Wondered who'd react to that...

Depend on where you're standing, of course.

Consider the Sepoy Mutiny from an Indian viewpoint.

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Old 08-13-2012   #138
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The even more simple reason would be that the outsourced, off-shore call centre staffer failed to find an answer on his computer system, and made something up.
Not unlikely, but my chums at Kodak weren't happy about it.

Then again, offshore call centres tend to use what they think of as WASP names such as John and Christopher.

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Old 08-13-2012   #139
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Wondered who'd react to that...

Depend on where you're standing, of course.

Consider the Sepoy Mutiny from an Indian viewpoint.
Sure, perspective is everything but I thought the only person to ever use that term for America's Glorious War for Independence was Rudy Kipling.
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Old 08-13-2012   #140
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Or, just maybe, someone actually spoke the truth. Because he was not in the Kodak PR department, but just got this phone call from a customer, and told what everyone within Kodak already knows but hides.
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Old 08-13-2012   #141
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Or, just maybe, someone actually spoke the truth. Because he was not in the Kodak PR department, but just got this phone call from a customer, and told what everyone within Kodak already knows but hides.
Seems unlikely. As others have said, it would be hard to hide. Also, I think I'd trust both the engineer and the PR person I contacted, whom I know of old.

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Old 08-13-2012   #142
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The even more simple reason would be that the outsourced, off-shore call centre staffer failed to find an answer on his computer system, and made something up.
Exactly. A friend of mine used to work in customer service at Epson. The call center is in Barcelona and he worked in the team for customers from German speaking countries. He's not very computer savvy but he says he didn't have to know anything because they had a program where they had to tick boxes and then give answers according to what's on the computer screen.

Also, I don't think asking the same source 4 times warrants as 'fact checking'. The same idiot will always give the same idiotic answer.
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Old 08-13-2012   #143
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Roger, I sincerely hope you're right. At the same time, I cannot imagine an employee just making this up on the phone. I do think they're selling from stock, not knowing exactly what film will be continued or not. Maybe they really are to big to fill a niche profitably.
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Old 08-13-2012   #144
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Maybe the employee got canned or will be soon and this is his revenge kill Kodak by spreading false rumours. False rumours can kill a stock company very fast and easy.

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Old 08-13-2012   #145
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The even more simple reason would be that the outsourced, off-shore call centre staffer failed to find an answer on his computer system, and made something up.
Irrespective of who and where, this is a strange reply to a customer.
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Old 08-13-2012   #146
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Maybe the employee got canned or will be soon and this is his revenge kill Kodak by spreading false rumours. False rumours can kill a stock company very fast and easy.

Dominik
You do have a point there but considering the value of Kodak stock, there is not much lower it can go.

0.210
-0.110 (-34.34%) Today.

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Old 08-13-2012   #147
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Isn't that the standard response to whistle blowers? "Just someone trying to hurt the company"...
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Old 08-13-2012   #148
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Roger, I sincerely hope you're right. At the same time, I cannot imagine an employee just making this up on the phone. I do think they're selling from stock, not knowing exactly what film will be continued or not. Maybe they really are to big to fill a niche profitably.
On BW400CN, quite possibly: is there room for both BW400CN and XP2 Super? On Tri-X, I doubt it. But we'll see.

Unfortunately, I can imagine someone making it up very easily. Consider the likelihood of this, versus the likelihood of Kodak having ceased film production 8 months ago, and nobody noticing, or telling anyone they were laid off...

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-13-2012   #149
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Unfortunately, I can imagine someone making it up very easily. Consider the likelihood of this, versus the likelihood of Kodak having ceased film production 8 months ago, and nobody noticing, or telling anyone they were laid off...

Cheers,

R.
I agree. And it's not like making it up means someone had an evil plan to hurt the company. But the thing is, people whose job it is to give answers don't like to say 'I don't know' so sometimes they make guesses based on very little factual information. We all know that Kodak filed for Chapter 11 in january so maybe that's what that person is basing their information on.
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Old 08-13-2012   #150
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I think (I hope) there's definitely room for BW400CN and XP2 Super, because the results I get from the films are a world apart.

Sadly I suspect I'll have to go back to trying to get something useable out of XP2 Super, which I've never managed to my satisfaction before. I suspect shooting it at below box speed will get me to a more acceptable results (if not, then I'm going to end up shooting cheap C41 colour and desaturating, which will be most unsatisfactory)

(and for the last time, it wasn't the same source 4 times, this was the fourth source, and the only one who bothered to reply)
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Old 08-13-2012   #151
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This thread is a soup sandwich. There have been a few who have offered good information regarding the original post. There have also been a few who have just been downright nasty.
We all know that Kodak film is still around so now it's come down to a lot of snarky personal attacks.
Can't it just die?

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Old 08-13-2012   #152
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... or maybe Luis just has poor written communication skills.
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Old 08-13-2012   #153
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My! In just half a day over 170 messages?! Kodak has died already in this forum while turning out films at the Rochester plant .

Why would a beloved, highly regarded, reasonably priced well-selling product would die?! Chrysler was bankrupt too and twice, but still going strong.. Leitz following the 70's lived through up and downs until it was divided into "portions" in 1986, the family probably has lost the great majority of their shares.. Captains change, vessels keep on cruising.. Such a great product having a sound customer basis all over the world, having almost no competition will attract many enthusiastic buyers, like Truesense bought a far more complex part of the same company.

Does a production bring money? This is the question.. Some Kodak films "bring" money more than any other similar product be it the HP5 or the Neopan do for example.. And the prospective future owners know it better than we do..
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Old 08-13-2012   #154
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Why would a beloved, highly regarded, reasonably priced well-selling product would die?!
Assuming that it is indeed selling well enough relative to the scale it is produced at (where I have my doubts when it comes to colour film - and BW400CN might be running off a colour line):

Sometimes because someone in management or the investors believes that a bit more profit could be squeezed out of producing something else. Or because someone in management or the investors disembowels the company for the immediate profit they can make out of selling its real estate and tools. Occasionally they'll even kill a profitable company just to make off with its pensioners fund or cash reserves. YMMV - but the list of survivable companies killed for no good reason is no smaller than that of the ailing companies trundling along at a loss.
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Old 08-14-2012   #155
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I wish kodak would do us all a favour and hurry up and die. I've had my fill of stories about the demise of their products and don't use them anymore. So basically I couldn't give a monkeys if they stop producing film products. They made it blatantly obvious they see no future in film so why people continue to support them I have no idea.
We support them because they make good products. Just because one nobody on a photo forum is pissed at them doesn't mean the photographers here are going to do what you want. No matter how much you stamp your feet and pout.
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Old 08-14-2012   #156
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Roger, thank you for saving the day!



It will die one day, so, be prepared...
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Old 08-14-2012   #157
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Assuming that it is indeed selling well enough relative to the scale it is produced at (where I have my doubts when it comes to colour film - and BW400CN might be running off a colour line):

Sometimes because someone in management or the investors believes that a bit more profit could be squeezed out of producing something else. Or because someone in management or the investors disembowels the company for the immediate profit they can make out of selling its real estate and tools. Occasionally they'll even kill a profitable company just to make off with its pensioners fund or cash reserves. YMMV - but the list of survivable companies killed for no good reason is no smaller than that of the ailing companies trundling along at a loss.
One of the last large manufacturers in my city, Robert Shaw Co, who made thermostats for cars and homes and had been here for almost as long as Kodak was purchased by a group of investors, shut down and all the assets sold for a substantial profit. Robert Shaw was the leader in a growing market for their products. This unfortunately is the new way of doing business.
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Old 08-14-2012   #158
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Contrary to what my post might suggest I personally would love any film producer to survive. But in Kodaks case we have seen paper production cease. It's beloved kodachome cease, other positive films cease, many black and white films cease, digital sensor section sold off, a chief exec who sees no future in film and kodak sink into bankruptcy protection. This isn't something that has just cropped up. Its something that has been happening for years and management has failed to stop the rot.

The problem kodak has is its large corporate mentality. It's too big for its film plant to survive in todays market. It can't downsize its site and plant the way it is now. IMO it needs to build a new film based plant totally seperate from its existing site of the right scale for it to be economically viable. But it isn't doing that and that means its going to fail in the film based stakes.
Yes the remaining film products are very good but they have no future under the current management strategy (if you can call it that). Therefore I'm not going to support it when I could support those companies who have a greater committment to keeping film alive such as fuji and ilford and the smaller companies such as the re-introduced agfa(adox) etc.
Being harsh on kodak is about their attitude and not their products.
Just my opinion, nothing more. You can interpret it how you like.
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Old 08-14-2012   #159
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Therefore I'm not going to support it when I could support those companies who have a greater committment to keeping film alive such as fuji and ilford and the smaller companies such as the re-introduced agfa(adox) etc.
Fuji's been discontinuing films left and right so I'm not sure that they're really that commited to keeping film alive.
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Old 08-14-2012   #160
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Fuji's been discontinuing films left and right so I'm not sure that they're really that commited to keeping film alive.
Well they have a range of positive and negative films. Yes they have been cutting back on some lines as have all film companies but they are still designing and making new film cameras. I think that shows a lot more committment than some. i.e. while there is a viable market they will be in it. I think there is a viable black and white paper market in the US. Why did kodak stop B+W paper production.
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