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Old 01-16-2012   #761
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Glad to see sensor design follows the second law of thermodynamics.
In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
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Old 01-16-2012   #762
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Yes we do.

Anyway, its a well defined term in information theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy...tion_theory%29). As are dynamic range and SNR, BTW. Were both entropy and dynamic range are measured in bits.

As a side note, there are many more parallels between thermodynamics and information theory. For example, if a manufacturer wants to convince you that a camera with, say, 8bits output (as in a JPEG file) has a dynamic range of, say, 12 bits, he is selling you a "perpetuum mobile". Any camera comes to mind ?

Of course, if you prefer Fuji's marketing speak of "more random", carry on
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Old 01-16-2012   #763
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I'm really tempted by the XP1 and everything I've read about it seems very encouraging, but there is already, one small niggle...

With Fuji lauding this as an option for Pro's, do you think it would have been too much to ask to make it environmentally sealed? And the lenses, of course?

I mean, they might very well be, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere, so I'm guessing not.

That would be the clincher for me, I think. Its quite miserable, weather wise, in the north of England for much of the year and I want to photograph in the rain and snow and hail with impunity, not have to hide my camera under my jacket, as I have to with my M8.2.
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random noise fuji x pro 1
Old 01-16-2012   #764
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random noise fuji x pro 1

there has been lots of discussion about 'fuji x pro 1' sensor and it looking more grain (film) like.'

well I have been using full frame sensors like this for YEARS, hp5,delta 100, tmax ..............

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Old 01-16-2012   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fez Parker View Post
there has been lots of discussion about 'fuji x pro 1' sensor and it looking more grain (film) like.'

well I have been using full frame sensors like this for YEARS, hp5,delta 100, tmax ..............
Ba dump bum crash...

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Old 01-16-2012   #766
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Wouldn't just saying a larger and smaller repeating pattern be enough to describe the Bayer and Fuju sensor patterns.
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Old 01-16-2012   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fez Parker View Post
there has been lots of discussion about 'fuji x pro 1' sensor and it looking more grain (film) like.'

well I have been using full frame sensors like this for YEARS, hp5,delta 100, tmax ..............

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In every thread dedicated to digital you get these posts where some die hard takes a minute out of their busy day to remind us all that they use and still like film ... and either points out that it is actually 'full frame' or has 'real grain!'

Well ... I'm off to the Maserati Forum to tell them about my new tractor!
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Old 01-16-2012   #768
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Film grain is random... i noticed that the fuji algorithm wasn't random as well. Honestly they're excellent at marketing (which is all the 'random film grain-like sensor' is) but seem to rush things into production. I hope the x pro 1 is different. Though the x100 has its place in my heart, Fuji is all show. The sensor itself, which is wonderful, is by sony. and the physical design of the camera is all fuji, that is to say they are responsible for difficult AF, poor menu layout, poor battery performance, poor manual focus, sluggish startup/read/write speeds, poor OVF/AF coupling, etc. But the size/sensor keep it up there as one of my favorite cameras despite the poor mechanics.
may i ask, if the sensor is by sony, why i cant get results like the x100's on a sony? the rendering is totally different, why is that? does fuji have nothing to do with this fact? and did sony make the lens on the x100? or was that some other cam co.?
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Old 01-16-2012   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f6andBthere View Post
In every thread dedicated to digital you get these posts where some die hard takes a minute out of their busy day to remind us all that they use and still like film ... and either points out that it is actually 'full frame' or has 'real grain!'

Well ... I'm off to the Maserati Forum to tell them about my new tractor!
Didn't know Maserati made tractors!

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Sensor clean function
Old 01-16-2012   #770
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Sensor clean function

I am wondering if the X PRo will have a sensor clean function like the Nikon
DSLR have ?
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Old 01-16-2012   #771
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I am wondering if the X PRo will have a sensor clean function like the Nikon
DSLR have ?
Has some sort of sensor cleaning aid... not sure if its like Nikons.
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Lamborghini
Old 01-16-2012   #772
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Lamborghini

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Didn't know Maserati made tractors!
Lamborghini do!

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New rule
Old 01-16-2012   #773
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Lightbulb New rule

Rule 822: No person shall post any John Deere, New Holland, Case-Farmall, Massey-Ferguson or Fordson images other than those taken with a Fujifilm X-Pro1.
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X-Pro1 wins 4 "best" awards at CES
Old 01-17-2012   #774
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Thumbs up X-Pro1 wins 4 "best" awards at CES

http://www.imaging-resource.com/pres...ds-at-ces-2012
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Old 01-17-2012   #775
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Originally Posted by Fez Parker View Post
there has been lots of discussion about 'fuji x pro 1' sensor and it looking more grain (film) like.'

well I have been using full frame sensors like this for YEARS, hp5,delta 100, tmax ..............

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Since the X-Pro-1 was designed from the start as an APS-C sensor camera rather then just sticking an APS-C sensor in a 35mm legacy body its every bit as much a full frame sensor camera as any 36x24mm camera. Just like 645, 6x6, 6x7. 4x5, 8x10, cameras are all full framed despite not being 35mm.
Hopefully the stupid term full frame will one day vanish and we'll return to just saying one format is smaller or larger then another.
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Old 01-17-2012   #776
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Rule 822: No person shall post any John Deere, New Holland, Case-Farmall, Massey-Ferguson or Fordson images other than those taken with a Fujifilm X-Pro1.
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Old 01-17-2012   #777
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So, are these fancy tractors status symbols?
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Old 01-17-2012   #778
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Thumbs down

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I fling mon grail in ze general direction of zis status symbol.
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Can't agree totally
Old 01-17-2012   #779
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Can't agree totally

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcary View Post
Since the X-Pro-1 was designed from the start as an APS-C sensor camera rather then just sticking an APS-C sensor in a 35mm legacy body its every bit as much a full frame sensor camera as any 36x24mm camera. Just like 645, 6x6, 6x7. 4x5, 8x10, cameras are all full framed despite not being 35mm.
Hopefully the stupid term full frame will one day vanish and we'll return to just saying one format is smaller or larger then another.
I can't agree totally. As long as you use only native lenses for the mentioned bodies it is exactly as you tell. But you know, here in this forum , I suppose more than 50 % of the potential X-Pro1 buyers intend sticking the "well known legacy 35mm format lenses" on this body. Me too.
I think having this premise makes the discussion about cropped (~24mm) or full frame (~35mm) sensor suddenly meaningful. Just to make clear this very important difference.
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Old 01-17-2012   #780
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Sorry if I missed this, but what about the Fuji X lenses' lack of DOF and distance scale info? Is that data displayed in the viewfinder? That information is very important to the way I photograph. Obviously the work around would be using legacy lenses, but we don't yet know how well manual focus is implemented.
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Old 01-17-2012   #781
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I'm not sure about all these tractors ... anybody got any slurry-store photos?
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Old 01-17-2012   #782
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So, are these fancy tractors status symbols?
Got that one right: http://www.moodsofnorway.com/
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Old 01-17-2012   #783
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I can't agree totally. As long as you use only native lenses for the mentioned bodies it is exactly as you tell. But you know, here in this forum , I suppose more than 50 % of the potential X-Pro1 buyers intend sticking the "well known legacy 35mm format lenses" on this body. Me too.
I think having this premise makes the discussion about cropped (~24mm) or full frame (~35mm) sensor suddenly meaningful. Just to make clear this very important difference.

The way I see it lens, yes even a legacy lens, are still the same focal length whither their used with/on a 24mm, 35mm, 120, ext format camera/sensor. What changes is the FOV and how DOF is effected.
So when you put say a 35mm format 50mm Legacy lens on a camera with an APS-C sensor, despite what some people seem to think/believe it doesn't make it a 75mm or 80mm lens, what it does is change the FOV.
50mm
APS-C short telephoto-Portrait lens
35mm Normal lens
6x6 Wide Angle
4x5 Extreme Wide Angle
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Old 01-17-2012   #784
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Since the X-Pro-1 was designed from the start as an APS-C sensor camera rather then just sticking an APS-C sensor in a 35mm legacy body its every bit as much a full frame sensor camera as any 36x24mm camera. Just like 645, 6x6, 6x7. 4x5, 8x10, cameras are all full framed despite not being 35mm.
Hopefully the stupid term full frame will one day vanish and we'll return to just saying one format is smaller or larger then another.
Use of the term "full frame" might appear stupid to you, but the convention of referring to 135-format lens focal lengths as a way of implying specific angles of view seems a bit more convenient than, say, referring to a 28mm lens as possessing a "57.3 degree horizontal angle of view". It might be more precise (referring to lens angles of view directly) but in most photographers' experience they reach into their bag for a 28mm lens, not a 57.3 degree horizontal angle of view lens. Hence the need, when mentioning focal lengths as an indirect reference to angle of view, to specify format size. Specifying lens focal length without reference to the sensor format size tells nothing about the system angle of view.

A 90mm lens on m-4/3'rds produces entirely different imagery than a 90mm lens on 4x5, for instance. And since the 135-format was so popular for so many decades, it has become a convenient, de facto standard of comparison.

Do you have any problem with the term "135-format", instead of "full-frame"? Or does your objection have more to do with old codgers lurking on photo forums who've been shooting way too long to care?

-Joe

P.S.: The numbers I quoted for the horizontal angle of view of a 28mm lens were merely for purposes of illustration, and were pulled "out of my back pocket," so to speak. Sticklers for accuracy can look up the figures in an optics textbook.

Edit: To add one more snarky comment.
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Old 01-17-2012   #785
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Sorry if I missed this, but what about the Fuji X lenses' lack of DOF and distance scale info? Is that data displayed in the viewfinder? That information is very important to the way I photograph. .
Yes, it's in the VF. I guess scales on focus by wire lenses don't make sense?
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Old 01-17-2012   #786
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Do you have any problem with the term "135-format", instead of "full-frame"?

-Joe
Nope since that's what I've always look at it as "135-Format" or 35mm format.

BTW just posting an opinion/point of view, just like everyone else. People are free to agree disagree no big deal either way
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Old 01-17-2012   #787
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I guess scales on focus by wire lenses don't make sense?
Not much of a problem as long as the scale separate from the focusing ring.
For example, I have here a couple of Canon lenses in EF mount that all have distance scales, but on all except one they're behind a little window.
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Old 01-17-2012   #788
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Does anyone with experience of the Fuji hybrid viewfinder know if there's any technical reasons why they couldn't implement focus peaking as an OVF overlay? That would seem to be the best possible implementation of manual focussing on the X-PRO1.
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Old 01-17-2012   #789
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Do you have any problem with the term "135-format", instead of "full-frame"?
Well if we want to get all pedantic about avoiding "full frame", then I guess "135 format" isn't really a good replacement either. After all it refers to a film format, not an image format, and there are cameras that record all sorts of weird image formats on 135 format film (half-frames, Robots, panoramics, you name it). If you do insist on a better term, then assuming that "135 format" means 24x36 mm is really no better than assuming that "full frame" menas 24x36 mm.

I find the discussion really pointless. Full frame is a pretty established term by now. Everybody knows what is meant by it. So discussing whether it's 100% semantically accurate doesn't really lead anywhere. Except maybe for those who think that technically correct is the best form of correct.
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Old 01-17-2012   #790
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Does anyone with experience of the Fuji hybrid viewfinder know if there's any technical reasons why they couldn't implement focus peaking as an OVF overlay? That would seem to be the best possible implementation of manual focussing on the X-PRO1.
Well, the EVF shows the field of view from the lens, while the OVF shows the field of view from the viewfinder. Together with parallax, that means that on an interchangeable lens camera you get tricky issues with scaling and placing the EVF image depending on the actual focal length and focusing distance.
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Old 01-17-2012   #791
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Well, the EVF shows the field of view from the lens, while the OVF shows the field of view from the viewfinder. Together with parallax, that means that on an interchangeable lens camera you get tricky issues with scaling and placing the EVF image depending on the actual focal length and focusing distance.
I suspected parallax would be the big issue, not having held a Fuji I don't know what that looks like on their viewfinder.
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Old 01-17-2012   #792
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I suspected parallax would be the big issue, not having held a Fuji I don't know what that looks like on their viewfinder.
The big issue isn't parallax, it's that the angle of view of the EVF changes with the focal length of whatever lens you use, while the OVF only has two zoom levels.
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Old 01-17-2012   #793
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"Full-frame" is fine when you're talking about lens focal length equivalents - it gets kind of tiresome when it's used pejoratively against m43 or APS cameras, as if 24x36 is a holy grail.

(especially since my holy grail is 6x6 - I seem to see in square and darkroom printing was a whole lot more fun with medium-format than 35mm)
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Old 01-17-2012   #794
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The way I see it lens, yes even a legacy lens, are still the same focal length whither their used with/on a 24mm, 35mm, 120, ext format camera/sensor. What changes is the FOV and how DOF is effected.
So when you put say a 35mm format 50mm Legacy lens on a camera with an APS-C sensor, despite what some people seem to think/believe it doesn't make it a 75mm or 80mm lens, what it does is change the FOV.
50mm
APS-C short telephoto-Portrait lens
35mm Normal lens
6x6 Wide Angle
4x5 Extreme Wide Angle
i'm sorry that just doesnt make any sense at all. in the real world it is a distinction without a difference, and is utterly meaningless. when i spend $500 to get a 24mm lens i'm doing so to get that particular angle of view. i dont want a 35mm lens or a 35mm angle of view, since theyre both essentially the same thing. FF means i will get what i wanted; crop factor means i won't, its that simple.
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Old 01-17-2012   #795
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Huh? You're spending $500 to get that angle of view on a specific format. It's only a 'distinction without difference' if you never shoot anything but 35mm (film or digital equivalent) and have no desire to do so.

With my Bronica SQ-A, I'd need a 50mm (or 40mm - somewhere in there) to get the equivalent of a 24mm on 35mm film. With a Sony NEX, I'd need a 16mm lens. I don't think any of those numbers are needlessly complicated or opaque.
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Old 01-17-2012   #796
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The price of apples and oranges...
(Canon prices per B&H)




price by SteveMPhoto, on Flickr
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Old 01-17-2012   #797
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Is this a thread about how rubbish the X-Pro 1 is? When is it released?
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Old 01-17-2012   #798
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The price of apples and oranges...
(Canon prices per B&H)




price by SteveMPhoto, on Flickr
What is the point of this?
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Old 01-17-2012   #799
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The big issue isn't parallax, it's that the angle of view of the EVF changes with the focal length of whatever lens you use, while the OVF only has two zoom levels.
Parallax would indeed be the big issue for a focus peaking overlay, as proposed; the view between the sensor, and the VF window, will never completely coincide. The angle of view would also make it trickier, but while you could reduce or increase the overlaid EVF image in size, via software, you couldn't line it up accurately.

Hence focus peaking will only be possible with the EVF.

It seems that legacy lens owners should feel grateful, merely that an adapter is available. Focusing the thing is perhaps a luxury! I doi hope Fuji take notice and add focus peaking, to at least expand the options.
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Old 01-17-2012   #800
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What is the point of this?
I should think that was obvious, but....

I'm considering the X-Pro1. Love the form factor. Looks like just what I've been wanting.
When I make a buying decision, I tend to compare alternatives on a price/performance basis. Fuji is claiming image quality on par with full frame DSLRs, I'm assuming that is so.
So, image quality being equal, price being equal, I have to decide if the form factor "advantages" of the Fuji are more compelling than the proven performance of the 5DMkII...not to mention the list of available lenses.
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