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Panny S1 M lens disappointment
Old 05-22-2019   #1
Huss
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Panny S1 M lens disappointment

Seems Panansonic and Leica have an agreement to make sure that the Panny will not work as well with M mount lenses as the Leica Sl does. Thereby maintaining a reason for the more expensive SL (and upcoming SL2).
The Nikon Z series is clearly better with them. Brief test (not mine):

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1597407

It's all about the sensor glass thickness. And honestly now I don't see any reason to get one of these Panasonics. They are huge, and are not great w Leica glass (no matter what Steve Huff claims w/ his night time testing where you cant see anything but the center). If you want a mirrorless with Leica - get a Leica M or SL. If you want a great mirrorless camera with a massive (adapted) lens range that also works well with Leica M glass - get a Nikon Z.
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Old 05-22-2019   #2
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I'm not discounting your point or the validity of your opinion, but I'd be genuinely interested to know the percentage of S1 buyers that already own M glass VS the percentage of SL buyers that already own M glass.

I'm inclined to say that the SL appeals to many (wealthy) Leica M users that want the option to use EVF, autofocus and the occasional use of M lenses. And I'm betting the vast majority of prospective S1 buyers could care less about mounting M lenses.
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Old 05-22-2019   #3
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I would agree.

Panasonic is looking at more crap from their video fan base.

Guaranteed they will find something to dog.

Likely EF lens compatibility.
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Old 05-22-2019   #4
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S1 buyers are far more likely to be moving from a DSLR, or from m43 cameras. We are not the majority, and M lens compatibility would be a very low consideration for Panasonic.

As a Panasonic m43 video shooter and owner of the 5D Mark II and M9, I would consider the S1 and native lenses as a full frame version of the G9, with the still capabilities of a contemporary mirrorless camera. As nice as it would be to put M lenses on a S1, it's not my priority. The S1 is too chunky to be thought of as a M alternative, anyway.
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Old 05-22-2019   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archiver View Post
S1 buyers are far more likely to be moving from a DSLR, or from m43 cameras. We are not the majority, and M lens compatibility would be a very low consideration for Panasonic.

As a Panasonic m43 video shooter and owner of the 5D Mark II and M9, I would consider the S1 and native lenses as a full frame version of the G9, with the still capabilities of a contemporary mirrorless camera. As nice as it would be to put M lenses on a S1, it's not my priority. The S1 is too chunky to be thought of as a M alternative, anyway.
The SL is as chunky. But people would still like to have their M lens on it. For $4000 more.

Guess both Panasonic and Leica would be happy with the upcoming SL2.
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Old 05-22-2019   #6
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hmm.
someone mentioned to me that Digiloyd loved M lenses on the S1 --
???
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Old 05-23-2019   #7
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hmm.
someone mentioned to me that Digiloyd loved M lenses on the S1 --
???
Not my impression. I would summarize his opinion as being that rangefinder lenses suffer on the S1R in general, with the possible exception of the Zeiss 35/1.4. Even that loses quality wide open, but looks extremely good stopped down. I can't see that article on his front page any longer, but that's my memory of it. I hope I can make a little quote from Diglloyd in his test results one the Leica 18/3.8 Super-Elmar-M on the Panasonic S1R:
"With each new mirrorless camera system, hope springs eternal even as basic physical facts are ignored (sensor cover glass). No, micro lenss do not fix sensor cover glass issues. Leica M lens performance is always impaired by ray angle when the sensor cover glass of a mirrorless camera has differing (greater) thickness than the optical path designed for the lens. The negative effects increase with distance from optical center and can include sharpness losses and amplification of field curvature and astigmatism."
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Old 05-23-2019   #8
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Quote:
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hmm.
someone mentioned to me that Digiloyd loved M lenses on the S1 --
???
I think that was Steve Huff....
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Old 05-23-2019   #9
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Buying a camera for lenses it was not designed for makes little sense. If you want maximum quality from your Leica lenses, you are going to need to buy a Leica body. The L-mount alliance does not extend to cover glass and micro lenses.
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Old 05-23-2019   #10
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Buying a camera for lenses it was not designed for makes little sense. If you want maximum quality from your Leica lenses, you are going to need to buy a Leica body. The L-mount alliance does not extend to cover glass and micro lenses.
I agree but there are a lot of people who want to use M lenses on an evf body.
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Old 05-23-2019   #11
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I agree but there are a lot of people who want to use M lenses on an evf body.
Then they will just have to accept that they won't work optimally. They were designed for film, not digital sensors. Tail wagging the dog.
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Old 05-23-2019   #12
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Then they will just have to accept that they won't work optimally. They were designed for film, not digital sensors. Tail wagging the dog.
yes and no. they work great on digital Leica M kameras.
Just not other kameras outside the Leica SL and to a lesser extent the Nikon Z series.
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Old 05-23-2019   #13
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Bang goes my reason for potentially getting the S1 as my first interchangeble lens digital camera. Looks like I will stick with my film camera until I can use my various zeis an Leica M mount lens on a alternative to a digital Leica body. So the nikon Z is the better than sony or panasonic for useing M mount lens?
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Old 05-23-2019   #14
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So the nikon Z is the better than sony or panasonic for useing M mount lens?
Nikon has thin cover glass, so theoretically it will work better with manual focus M lenses. Theoretically. As a practical matter, even with thin cover glass, does the Z6/Z7 convert an excellent film lens into a average (or even mediocre) digital lens? If so, what's the point?
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Old 05-23-2019   #15
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Quote:
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Bang goes my reason for potentially getting the S1 as my first interchangeble lens digital camera. Looks like I will stick with my film camera until I can use my various zeis an Leica M mount lens on a alternative to a digital Leica body. So the nikon Z is the better than sony or panasonic for useing M mount lens?
Nikon Z is the best of the non Leica brands. But what is wrong w getting a Leica M240? Mint condition used they are about the same money as the others are new but work perfectly with M lenses. And are reliable!
I much prefer using my M240 w M glass than my Z w M glass.
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Old 05-23-2019   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Nikon Z is the best of the non Leica brands. But what is wrong w getting a Leica.
Nothing, but there is nothing wrong with just not using Leica lenses Too! 🤨
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Old 05-23-2019   #17
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Nothing, but there is nothing wrong with just not using Leica lenses Too! 🤨
Amen brother!
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Old 05-23-2019   #18
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Amen brother!
Haha, I agree though... I would use an M with M lenses.
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Old 05-23-2019   #19
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IMO, an M with M lenses is the way to go, unless you're doing slow-setup (large-format style) photography with longer focal lengths (>50mm)
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Old 05-23-2019   #20
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The only non-Leica camera I like for M lenses is the sadly discontinued Ricoh GXR with M module. Although it has an aps-c sensor, it is by far the best solution for shooting M mount lenses outside of a purpose-built rangefinder. There's no loss of sharpness, colours are rich, and no AA filter means you get all the detail the sensor can capture. It's also slow, a bit clunky, shot to shot time is bad, but in terms of image quality the GXR-M is fabulous.

I'm more interested in the Nikon Z6 as my full frame mirrorless camera. For reasons of budget and technology, I've held off from getting into full frame mirrorless, but the Z6, with its relatively small lenses, great handling and EVF, as well as great colour rendition, seems like a great option. The body is also considerably smaller and lighter than the S1. As much as I love my Panasonic m43 cameras, the S1 hearkens back to the happily departed days when I lugged the 5D Mark II everywhere.
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Old 05-24-2019   #21
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Thanks for the comments folk. I do have Nikon F mount lenses as well. So back to one of the eariler post, S1 performance dilutes with M lenes on prupose. If the old GXR could perform well with M glass, surely it could be done quite easy today. Sl2 price will be steep.
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Old 05-24-2019   #22
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Quote:
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So back to one of the eariler post, S1 performance dilutes with M lenes on prupose. If the old GXR could perform well with M glass, surely it could be done quite easy today. Sl2 price will be steep.
There is absolutely no evidence that Panasonic did this on purpose or in collusion with Leica. It is doubtful that Panasonic even considered M mount lenses when designing this camera. The microlenses, thin sensor coverstack and other concessions in the digital M cameras to make it work with M mount lenses have been responsible for a huge proportion of the substantial problems with digital M cameras (M8 ir colour contamination, M9 sensor cover breakage and M9/MM sensor cover corrosion). No other manufacturer would risk that for someone else’s legacy film lens mount.

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Old 05-24-2019   #23
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I just wrote a reasonably long post describing my experiences with the S1 but it got lost in the login process.

Here's the potted version:

The image is very bright and clean looking, colours are accurate to life as I see it.

The ibis is great with M Lenses, it is superb for hand held video which is why I bought the camera - as a complimentary video camera for my film bodies for personal family stuff and for travel. I will also use it as a B Cam for work along side canon stuff.

I have the 28, 35 & 50 Summicrons and all work well for my standards (mainly people up close).

The handling is great, it's quite heavy and beefy but very intuitive to use and everything you need is to hand.
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Old 05-24-2019   #24
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28 Summicron

untitled-5 by Fair Kid, on Flickr
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Old 05-24-2019   #25
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If you don't mind APS, the current Leica CL (digital camera), also is optimized for M lens use, besides the Ricoh.

Dave (D&A)
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Old 05-24-2019   #26
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28 Summicron

untitled-5 by Fair Kid, on Flickr
No offense but that kind of image hides issues. The center is always good, it's to the side and edges where there are issues. This is disguised with wide open up close pics as that kind of subject matter will always have the sides and edges out of focus.
If you are just posting on the web, none of this would matter. But then for web use there really isn't any need to use any high end gear is there? Apart from the enjoyment factor.
If you are a pro selling prints or images for clients, then it will matter as that is when you see it.

But if these are the kind of images you use it for, then no problem.
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Old 05-24-2019   #27
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To add onto that, I don't think any of this matters for close portraiture. As the only thing that matters is the subject. Further back group shots, architectural and landscape images is where it may matter.
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Old 05-24-2019   #28
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I totally agree Huss, for me this will primarily be a video camera with stills on the side. Work stuff is Canon. I would say that it seems to handle the 28mm better than the Sony's I've used in the past.
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Old 05-24-2019   #29
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Hi Bendj, I don't suppose you have any shots stopped down? Perhaps landscapes? Steve Huff demonstrates the Voigtlander 15mm and it looks fine to my (admittedly wonky) eye. Thanks
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Old 05-24-2019   #30
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Hi Bendj, I don't suppose you have any shots stopped down? Perhaps landscapes? Steve Huff demonstrates the Voigtlander 15mm and it looks fine to my (admittedly wonky) eye. Thanks
The images that Huff posted were 1800x1200 pixels. You can't tell much with that low rez. The photographers conducting real tests are showing full size images. Then again they are not relying on sponsorships to keep their sites going.
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any update?
Old 07-18-2019   #31
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any update?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bendj View Post
I just wrote a reasonably long post describing my experiences with the S1 but it got lost in the login process.

Here's the potted version:

The image is very bright and clean looking, colours are accurate to life as I see it.

The ibis is great with M Lenses, it is superb for hand held video which is why I bought the camera - as a complimentary video camera for my film bodies for personal family stuff and for travel. I will also use it as a B Cam for work along side canon stuff.

I have the 28, 35 & 50 Summicrons and all work well for my standards (mainly people up close).

The handling is great, it's quite heavy and beefy but very intuitive to use and everything you need is to hand.

Curious if you are willing to provide an update? How are you enjoying the camera overall? and how are those Summicrons performing relative to the concerns voiced in this thread?

Your usage mirrors my intention to purchase an S1, btw.
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Old 07-18-2019   #32
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Curious if you are willing to provide an update? How are you enjoying the camera overall? and how are those Summicrons performing relative to the concerns voiced in this thread?

Your usage mirrors my intention to purchase an S1, btw.

Hi there,

Yes I am really enjoying it. I like the handling and user interface, the skin tones look good so not too much messing around in Lightroom. The image is very clean looking though compared to my experiences with Canon which is a downside for me, but once I remove the default Lightroom sharpening and maybe add a little grain it looks good.

Video is obviously a strong point and will get even better once I receive the free (in the UK) video upgrade. Ibis in video is superb.

I haven't really been using my Summicrons on the camera as my VC 40mm f1.2 has been wedded to it mostly. The balance and ergonomics feel better with this slightly larger lens and the focal length is very versatile. For work stuff I have been using Canon lenses with the MC adapter which not the fastest at focusing but is accurate and OK for the stuff I mostly shoot.

I haven't tested the camera for performance with Leica lenses in any scientific way but it's looks plenty good to me and I have owned an M9 and M10.

Hope that is useful info.
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M lenses on any full frame digi
Old 07-29-2019   #33
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M lenses on any full frame digi

Several responses say that there is no market of those with M lenses hunting a solid FF body.

Well, this is my primary focus. I have a collection of some 16+ Leica lenses of various ages, and I want a digital body to use them on.

A digital M is appealing, but it is both pricey and does not come with the advanced IBIS performance of the newer FF bodies.

The IBIS has a strong appeal for low-light shooting.

So, which of the current and emerging FF bodies DOES work best with the legacy Leica M glass?

Thank you.
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Old 07-29-2019   #34
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Here is no best mirrorless. Especially some Nikon.
And not Leica, for sure due to all of the quality issues. Maybe M 240, M10. But those are only makes sence for RF lenses. None of the M has dust shake sensor. So for non rf lenses testers it is not good.

I'm not sure what went wrong among P and L. They both used each over cameras and lenses for mft.
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Old 07-29-2019   #35
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Quote:
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The only non-Leica camera I like for M lenses is the sadly discontinued Ricoh GXR with M module. Although it has an aps-c sensor, it is by far the best solution for shooting M mount lenses outside of a purpose-built rangefinder. There's no loss of sharpness, colours are rich, and no AA filter means you get all the detail the sensor can capture. It's also slow, a bit clunky, shot to shot time is bad, but in terms of image quality the GXR-M is fabulous.
...
I agree about the Ricoh GXR-M. It was a superb shooter.

The more modern replacement for it, for me, is the Leica CL ... I had the SL for a time but never liked using my M lenses on it, they fit the CL much much better and Leica supplies lens profiles so they perform beautifully, with rendering pretty much identical to their performance on the M-P240, M-D262, and SL (given that you have to crop the view on those three cameras to match their view on the CL).

The CL's sensor and viewfinder are generations improved beyond the GXR-M. The GXR-M had a couple of nice features that aren't on the CL, but I don't find them to be much of an issue in use.

The CL is such a strong performer and so versatile that it has replaced the GXR-M and both the SL and the M-D as my go-to camera of choice for most shooting needs.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #36
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My experience with S1R so far is pretty good, quite happy with it.
I have many Vintage M lens, so far I have not spent enough time to play with it.
But some play and test shots with beloved Summicron 35 v1 impressed, I did not expect the lens can feed up the 47MP, which it did. It is satisfaction there.
Also tried Contax G 21mm f/2.8 Biogon lens, it worked OK, no red casting at corners. My M240 showed red casting with it, M9 did the best among the three cameras.
50mm lens work of course beautifully.
Have not tested other lens yet, enjoying using the 35mm cron v1 on it .


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