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No meter, no big deal
Old 05-14-2017   #1
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No meter, no big deal

My go to film camera these days, is my old but sturdy Nikon F with a meterless Prism. I keep an app on my iPhone (Lux), but usually just eyeball the situation and change aperture and shutter speed on the fly. A whole different experience which I highly recommend. Why? Because if you want to be fully in the creative process, then learning to expose with your eye and your mind increases the process many times over. And besides you never have to worry about batteries. My two cents.
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Old 05-14-2017   #2
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Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
Why? Because if you want to be fully in the creative process, then learning to expose with your eye and your mind increases the process many times over.
Could you elaborate?
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Old 05-14-2017   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
Why? Because if you want to be fully in the creative process, then learning to expose with your eye and your mind increases the process many times over. And besides you never have to worry about batteries. My two cents.
While I understand what you mean, these days I feel the creative process mostly happens within the frame not in the technical. Of course, without the technical aspects of photography then you might not pull off what you intended within your frame. I have no problem relying on a meter if it lets me concentrate on what's within my frame more.
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Old 05-14-2017   #4
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I think that most experienced photographers are confident enough to do manual exposure under many common situations. Many outdoor scenes are total no-brainers, actually.

I daresay that most of us started out using cameras which offered little or no exposure control, a Brownie Starflash in my case. You really didn't even think of exposure, except you developed a sense of what scenes would and would not produce an acceptable image.
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Old 05-14-2017   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
My go to film camera these days, is my old but sturdy Nikon F with a meterless Prism. I keep an app on my iPhone (Lux), but usually just eyeball the situation and change aperture and shutter speed on the fly. A whole different experience which I highly recommend. Why? Because if you want to be fully in the creative process, then learning to expose with your eye and your mind increases the process many times over. And besides you never have to worry about batteries. My two cents.
I agree.
I learned more about exposure and light by just going out and shooting without using a meter than I ever learned from the myriad of books I've read on the subject.
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Old 05-14-2017   #6
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Originally Posted by dmr View Post
I think that most experienced photographers are confident enough to do manual exposure under many common situations.
I don't disagree with you statement, which is a far cry from saying you can be "more fully in the creative process" "many times over" by not using a meter. The proffered theory makes about as much sense as saying you can be more fully in the creative process many times over by just sticking your finger in the developer to determine temperature, counting to yourself instead of relying on a timer, and agitating free form according to how you feel at the moment. If technical aspects of your photography get in the way of your creativity, then you need more practice so they become second nature.
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Old 05-14-2017   #7
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Originally Posted by Swift1 View Post
I agree.
I learned more about exposure and light by just going out and shooting without using a meter than I ever learned from the myriad of books I've read on the subject.
Colton is at least as accurate as my LunaPro SBC. Maybe more so!
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Old 05-14-2017   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr View Post
I think that most experienced photographers are confident enough to do manual exposure under many common situations. Many outdoor scenes are total no-brainers, actually.

I daresay that most of us started out using cameras which offered little or no exposure control, a Brownie Starflash in my case. You really didn't even think of exposure, except you developed a sense of what scenes would and would not produce an acceptable image.
I respectfully disagree, I think most folks here under 35 (not all) I have no idea what I am talking about, as they grew up on auto everything.
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Old 05-14-2017   #9
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well, whatever works for you ... isn't necessarily what works for me.

i shoot to make the best exposure i can, sometimes full manual, sometimes AE. i like flexibility in my cameras.
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Old 05-14-2017   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
My go to film camera these days, is my old but sturdy Nikon F with a meterless Prism. I keep an app on my iPhone (Lux), but usually just eyeball the situation and change aperture and shutter speed on the fly. A whole different experience which I highly recommend. Why? Because if you want to be fully in the creative process, then learning to expose with your eye and your mind increases the process many times over. And besides you never have to worry about batteries. My two cents.
Amen bro! I am the same except a F2. I do it with my Df too! In fact I do it with every camera I pick up. If I may say I have gotten pretty darn good at it over the years.
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Old 05-14-2017   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr View Post
I think that most experienced photographers are confident enough to do manual exposure under many common situations. Many outdoor scenes are total no-brainers, actually.

I daresay that most of us started out using cameras which offered little or no exposure control, a Brownie Starflash in my case. You really didn't even think of exposure, except you developed a sense of what scenes would and would not produce an acceptable image.
Yup.

I mean, Sunny 16- BOOM! DONE!

That said, if things look a little tricky with deep shadows, I'll whip out my iPhone and use the light meter app to double-check myself.
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Old 05-14-2017   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr View Post
I daresay that most of us started out using cameras which offered little or no exposure control, a Brownie Starflash in my case. You really didn't even think of exposure, except you developed a sense of what scenes would and would not produce an acceptable image.
I too used a Brownie Starflash when I was young. Outdoors, press the shutter. Indoors, use a flashbulb and press the shutter. I later graduated to an Instamatic 104. The only differences were loading the film was a lot easier, and indoors I used a flashcube instead of a flashbulb. I guess with no thought about exposure, I was more fully in the creative process many times over. Undoubtedly, my best work is behind me.
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Old 05-14-2017   #13
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Originally Posted by maggieo View Post
I mean, Sunny 16- BOOM! DONE! That said, if things look a little tricky with deep shadows, I'll whip out my iPhone and use the light meter app to double-check myself.
I mean, match needle - BOOM! DONE! No need to whip out (or even carry) my iPhone.
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Old 05-14-2017   #14
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Hi,

Not one mention of the film we are talking about. That's going to confuse some people.

FWIW, I'll risk funny 16 for B&W film in boring conditions but bracketing makes me happier then.

And there are some situations, even with B&W, where I go from CW to spot using the camera's system and still bracket the exposure.

I'd drag in incident light as well but it's late at night here...

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Old 05-14-2017   #15
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Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
I respectfully disagree, I think most folks here under 35 (not all) I have no idea what I am talking about, as they grew up on auto everything.
Um, should the third "I" be deleted? As in "I have no idea...".

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Old 05-14-2017   #16
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

Not one mention of the film we are talking about. That's going to confuse some people.

FWIW, I'll risk funny 16 for B&W film in boring conditions but bracketing makes me happier then.

And there are some situations, even with B&W, where I go from CW to spot using the camera's system and still bracket the exposure.

I'd drag in incident light as well but it's late at night here...

Regards, David
Totally agree. Film is matter. B&W work fine in most of case. But "learning expose" on slide film.. not for my income
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Old 05-14-2017   #17
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Just a reminder: My Rollei MX has an exposure table on its back. Mind you, just ASA 100 and 50. Says things like "sunlight," "cloudy," etc. I agree, however, that color slide film calls for a meter -- just like Kodachrome did.
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Old 05-14-2017   #18
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
I don't disagree with you statement, which is a far cry from saying you can be "more fully in the creative process" "many times over" by not using a meter. The proffered theory makes about as much sense as saying you can be more fully in the creative process many times over by just sticking your finger in the developer to determine temperature, counting to yourself instead of relying on a timer, and agitating free form according to how you feel at the moment. If technical aspects of your photography get in the way of your creativity, then you need more practice so they become second nature.
It does actually make a modicum of sense. If one just exposes as the meter in their camera tells them, they're not really thinking about how they want the image to look, and often in tricky situations won't get the exposure they want anyway. Meters are easily fooled, and relying entirely on the machine makes photography into a paint-by-numbers affair.
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Old 05-14-2017   #19
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It does actually make a modicum of sense. If one just exposes as the meter in their camera tells them, they're not really thinking about how they want the image to look, and often in tricky situations won't get the exposure they want anyway. Meters are easily fooled, and relying entirely on the machine makes photography into a paint-by-numbers affair.
You make the assumption that the photographer doesn't know how to use a meter. I guess we should also make the assumption that the photographer without a meter doesn't know anything about exposure either.
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Old 05-14-2017   #20
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
You make the assumption that the photographer doesn't know how to use a meter. I guess we should also make the assumption that the photographer without a meter doesn't know anything about exposure either.
You conflate somebody knowing how to use a meter with somebody knowing how to judge exposure. Two related, but different things.

One can know how to use a meter without knowing anything about exposure beyond how to expose as the meter tells them to.
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Old 05-14-2017   #21
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I see what you mean and I don't want to disagree, but like others I am loath to support the creative enhancement argument. Except to say that recently I finished off a roll of ISO 25 film in a wonderful Pentax Spotmatic for which there is no battery I can find. It has a 55mm lens and looking through an SLR finder with that field of view was thrilling and indeed the framing, and some consideration of focus and depth of field were the only things in my mind. I got a few good shots and one I was very happy with, just in the streets near work. I think therefore being confident about exposure removes an element, freeing the mind for other more creative aspects of taking a photograph. A bit like having an autoexposure camera, if you don't mind me saying.....
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Old 05-14-2017   #22
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I see what you mean and I don't want to disagree, but like others I am loath to support the creative enhancement argument. Except to say that recently I finished off a roll of ISO 25 film in a wonderful Pentax Spotmatic for which there is no battery I can find. It has a 55mm lens and looking through an SLR finder with that field of view was thrilling and indeed the framing, and some consideration of focus and depth of field were the only things in my mind.
Framing, focus, and depth of field were the only things in your mind after your mind previously suggested to you an appropriate shutter speed and f-stop for proper exposure. As you were considering depth of field, presumably you had in mind the possible need to change shutter speed if you changed f-stop.
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Old 05-14-2017   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
I respectfully disagree, I think most folks here under 35 (not all) I have no idea what I am talking about, as they grew up on auto everything.
You do have a point. I kind of assume that first cameras were box or equivalent and not auto-focus/exposure P&S or {trying not to retch} cell phones.
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Old 05-14-2017   #24
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
You make the assumption that the photographer doesn't know how to use a meter. I guess we should also make the assumption that the photographer without a meter doesn't know anything about exposure either.


Depends on the photographer.
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Old 05-14-2017   #25
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I use the meter in my cameras all the time, but I am fond of playing a game of guess the setting before I look at the meter. Most of the time my best guess is close enough to make no difference. It is my way of ensuring that I am able to use any camera if the battery fails given a mechanical shutter.
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Old 05-14-2017   #26
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I use the meter in my cameras all the time, but I am fond of playing a game of guess the setting before I look at the meter. Most of the time my best guess is close enough to make no difference. It is my way of ensuring that I am able to use any camera if the battery fails given a mechanical shutter.
That's an excellent practice, just don't suggest it puts you more fully in the creative process many times over.
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Old 05-14-2017   #27
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Just a reminder: My Rollei MX has an exposure table on its back. Mind you, just ASA 100 and 50. Says things like "sunlight," "cloudy," etc. I agree, however, that color slide film calls for a meter -- just like Kodachrome did.
For 35, I've shot slide film almost exclusively since 2014. None of my 35mm cameras (until just a few weeks ago) have had a meter. Slide film is actually a lot easier to expose for than people make it out to be. All one has to do is decide which object in the frame they want exposed "properly" and let everything else fall where it may.

An in camera meter would've borked up a shot like this:

JB27 by Berang Berang, on Flickr

I wanted flare, and I got it; the camera, had it a meter to begin with, would have more than likely decided I needed a lot less exposure in this frame.

wall by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Exposing on slide film is like the exposure equivalent of shooting with a shallow depth of field. You expose your subject "in focus", and let anything else fall out of it.
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Old 05-14-2017   #28
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Um, should the third "I" be deleted? As in "I have no idea...".

Regards, David
yes corrected.
BTW I am not saying that this is the only way to fly. Digital. Auto all have their place, too.
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Old 05-14-2017   #29
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I decided to be a practitioner of Sunny-16 since it means one less piece of gear I need to carry, look at before taking the photo, and then making sure I don't drop it.

But man, it would be nice to have a meter in every camera. Especially all those times I talk myself out of the proper setting.

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Old 05-14-2017   #30
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The human eye is notorious for not being able to judge the amount of light and sunny 16 is a guide but just that. Luckily, black and white film has enough latitude that even an inept photographer can get a printable image. I challenge you to shoot slide film without a meter. You will bring back more bad exposures then usable ones.

There is a reason Ansel Adams used a light meter.
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Old 05-14-2017   #31
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The human eye is notorious for not being able to judge the amount of light and sunny 16 is a guide but just that. Luckily, black and white film has enough latitude that even an inept photographer can get a printable image. I challenge you to shoot slide film without a meter. You will bring back more bad exposures then usable ones.

There is a reason Ansel Adams used a light meter.
Shooting slides without a meter is what I have been doing for the past four years... The only real issue I have is when I convince myself there's "still enough light" even though I've run out of shutter speeds and aperture for what's available. Once the sun is over the the horizon and the shadows are gone, judging light is just guessing. As long as the sun is up, doesn't matter whether it's clear, cloudy, storming or foggy. You learn to judge it.

table and chairs by Berang Berang, on Flickr

cabriolet by Berang Berang, on Flickr

fence by Berang Berang, on Flickr

steps by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Smiley Porsche 356 by Berang Berang, on Flickr

jb24 by Berang Berang, on Flickr

foot scratch by Berang Berang, on Flickr

tree by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Ukishima Corner by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Demolition by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Family by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Super Deluxe by Berang Berang, on Flickr

scooter by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Not a single photo in that lot was taken at f/16 either.
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Old 05-14-2017   #32
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Shooting slides without a meter is what I have been doing for the past four years...

Not a single photo in that lot was taken at f/16 either.
Nice shuts. But to learn this skills, How many incorrect exposure you have per roll?
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Old 05-14-2017   #33
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Been old fartino myself I remember taking slide pictures with FED-2. No meter, no iPhone, just exposure chart which was included with each film. I guess, it was the norm, back then...


Sorry, Sasha Krasnov has only big picture.
http://skrasnov.com/blog/sunny-16-rule/
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Old 05-14-2017   #34
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Nice shuts. But to learn this skills, How many incorrect exposure you have per roll?
To learn anything worth knowing there is a price to be paid right?
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Old 05-14-2017   #35
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Nice shuts. But to learn this skills, How many incorrect exposure you have per roll?
Many years of shooting B&W and C41. I had shot the occasional roll of E6, but it wasn't until about five years ago when I decided I was never going to re-set up my darkroom that I started shooting E6 almost exclusively. So yes many years of experience are put to work, although honestly if you're good enough to eyeball exposure for B&W you're good enough to eyeball exposure for slide film. You just have to remind yourself to be picky about what you want when taking the picture, because there's no dodging or burning later. Keep that in mind and you're set I think.
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Old 05-14-2017   #36
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To learn anything worth knowing there is a price to be paid right?
True, but I didn't see "learning" here I see eyeball exercising
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Old 05-14-2017   #37
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Nice shuts. But to learn this skills, How many incorrect exposure you have per roll?
Yes, and do you bracket?
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Old 05-14-2017   #38
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Yes, and do you bracket?
Not unless it's a very contrasty shot and I'm hoping one or the other exposure might get more detail where I want it.

This is a typical roll. A couple of shots are either over or under exposed, but 34-35 decent ones out of 37 or so is not bad. Camera was an Edixa Prismaflex. Note several photos suffer from veiling flare from my old Enna wide angle, but exposure is still more or less correct :
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Old 05-14-2017   #39
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Been old fartino myself I remember taking slide pictures with FED-2. No meter, no iPhone, just exposure chart which was included with each film. I guess, it was the norm, back then...


Sorry, Sasha Krasnov has only big picture.
http://skrasnov.com/blog/sunny-16-rule/
I took a lot of photos that way, including crime scene photos with a Welta Welti and even a Minolta 16. And that included color negative and slide, usually Kodachrome in the Welti. Kodak used to help keep a chain of custody which was accepted by all US courts, including military.

The included data sheet always gave me good photos, although there were times I had to make adjustments for unusual light conditions.
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Old 05-14-2017   #40
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It's 2 variables. Not really rocket science, is it? Like drilling a hole: how wide and how deep. You can eye ball it or measure it. Certainly no "artistry" involved.
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