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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
This camera is clearly a rebadged Panasonic S1R, same tech specs all the way up and down as far as I can tell... can anyone tell me the difference between the cameras, other than about $3k? They mentioned something about sensor micro lenses that can better accommodate wide angle lenses and M-mount lenses? Is this feature unique to the SL2?
HW,

The micro lenses are optimized for M-glass. With other brands if you use M-glass performance will be especially compromised when using wides.

My SL is also great with M-glass wides.

For me a big deal, but perhaps not for others.

You could buy a Sony A7 and have the sensor modified so performance is not compromised.

Also if you shoot Leica glass, M, R, L, TL... the lens profiles could be another great advantage.

Also know that I even shoot a Noct-Nikkor on my SL and I can use a Noctilux F1.2 profile.

Cal
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #82
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Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
That was my main takeaway too. We'll have to see some direct comparisons to see if that claim holds water. Would be very interesting to see if the difference is striking enough to justify the premium.
HW,

Pretty well documented how M-mount wides respond say in a Sony A7 unless modified. This was always a big advantage for a SL.

If you don't use M-mount wides the premium makes it cost prohibitive I guess, but then again for optimization lens profiles should not be discounted.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #83
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Is it true that the planned M11 will be in L mount? This could make me think of the SL or SL2.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RObert Budding View Post
BHPhoto lists the SL2 at $5,995. Alternatively, a Fujifilm GFX 50R is $4,000, and a Nikon Z7 is $2,697.
If I would toss this big money, I would get 50R. I have seen street pictures with it. Outstanding from else. Feels like LF.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Is it true that the planned M11 will be in L mount? This could make me think of the SL or SL2.
I would be very surprised if that happened. It would mean the end of the Leica M mount altogether (unless used with an adapter). It has been floated (Leica Rumors) that the M10 or M11 might be offered with an EVF option. It would actually make sense to me if this one carried an L mount.

And it's only a matter of time until Leica film cameras are discontinued. I'm sure they sell all of ~50 film cameras in a year world-wide!

Maybe Erwin Puts knows something after all?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBlackwell View Post
I would be very surprised if that happened. It would mean the end of the Leica M mount altogether (unless used with an adapter). It has been floated (Leica Rumors) that the M10 or M11 might be offered with an EVF option. It would actually make sense to me if this one carried an L mount.

And it's only a matter of time until Leica film cameras are discontinued. I'm sure they sell all of ~50 film cameras in a year world-wide!

Maybe Erwin Puts knows something after all?

It would make strategic sense to go down the L route for the M cameras.
After all ,they abandoned the screw mount and moved with the times back in the day.
They`ll probably bring it out as a variant if they chose to take that route .

From what I`ve seen (briefly testing a CL) the L lenses are very good and a dare say cheaper to produce than the M line.
It also opens up the market for their bodies .
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
It would make strategic sense to go down the L route for the M cameras.
After all ,they abandoned the screw mount and moved with the times back in the day.
They`ll probably bring it out as a variant if they chose to take that route .

From what I`ve seen (briefly testing a CL) the L lenses are very good and a dare say cheaper to produce than the M line.
It also opens up the market for their bodies .
Michael,

The APO Crons are not inexpensive, although the APO 50 Cron-L is less expensive than the APO 50 Cron-M.

I do know that the "L" mount has less design restrictions, and Leica is not shy about making full frame "L" lenses huge and heavy, but it is clear to me that when you compare the M lenses, even APO lenses, against the L APO lenses the L glass wins.

In fewer words the APO L lenses are more highly corrected and closer to perfection. Read Jono Slack's reviews where he compares the APO 50 Cron-M against the new APO 50 Cron-L. The APO 50 Cron-L wins.

Who else is making APO wides? I can tell you that the APO 35 Cron is beyond being just a great lens (I own one). Nothing like it in the M-line as far as wides. More APO wides are coming...

I think the single restraint that would limit the adaptation of a "L" mount to a M-body is the physical short distance between the lens and the sensor in rangefinders. A larger diameter mount changes nothing. The laws of physics cannot be changed.

Clear to me that the "L" mount and the SL and SL2 are more open to exploiting more performance. Whether or not this performance is required or needed in one's photography is a separate issue. Is it worth the premium? Depends...

As far as premium goes are people looking into the simple elegant interface? Are people overlooking that the SL and SL2 are weather sealed, as well as the native SL lenses.

If people want to exploit their Leica glass is that easy to do without the menues of profiles? Isn't that the point of using profiles (to optimize the performance of lenses)?

I will say this: I love my SL; I have used it heavily for 4-5 years; but the new SL2 seems to me like a big advance. It will give me crazy capabilities as far as speed and performance with IBIS.

The ugly is that the premium is high, already the word is out that battery consumption is high (two batteries required for a day's worth of shooting, three if for video), and there are less expensive and very capable alternatives out there.

If anything, I think more cameras like the Q2 will come out. BTW I had someone connected to Leica tell me the Q's lens is already "future proofed" to 80 MP. Perhaps a Q3 will be a step closer in that direction.

As far as the current Leica L-mount glass it is likely future proofed out to 3-4 generations or at least 100 MP.

Also I own a CL. I love the interface: simple; and elegant. In comparing files of course the full frame is better. Also it seems that even when I use my APO 35 Cron and 50 Lux-L on the CL that the SL brings out the best. The 23 Cron-TL kinda gets crushed buy the "L" glass. Not a fair fight at all.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
The suggestion in this vid is that the new SL sensor is tweaked to better enable M glass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvMqGCHUSM
Which has had the knock on effect of making af performance worse than the Panasonic S1R apparently (according to the DPReview vid).

It's a niche camera I guess - for people who are happy to pay the premium for Leica design and who will use M mount glass on it. If you want to use L mount only then the S1R is the better camera (and will save you 3k)
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #89
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Probably would luv this camera...but...
Same ole dumb...29 min video recording limit..
Making it useless for concerts etc..
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
Which has had the knock on effect of making af performance worse than the Panasonic S1R apparently (according to the DPReview vid).

It's a niche camera I guess - for people who are happy to pay the premium for Leica design and who will use M mount glass on it. If you want to use L mount only then the S1R is the better camera (and will save you 3k)
S,

The DP review was on an advanced prototype SL2. I suspect that what was reported was a bug. Full disclosure...

I agree that the SL2 is the better platform if the intended use is M-glass, and especially M-glass wides, but for some that have "R" glass it will also be the best platform. Don't forget the future proofed Leica L-glass also.

Does Panasonic provide lens profiles for Leica glass?

Makes sense to fully exploit Leica glass then perhaps shoot a Leica camera.

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #91
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Must admit that I`ve never seen a positive review on a Leica product from that DP reviewer .
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post

It's a niche camera I guess - for people who are happy to pay the premium for Leica design and who will use M mount glass on it. If you want to use L mount only then the S1R is the better camera (and will save you 3k)
S,

Fact check: S1R price at B&H is $3697.99; SL2 price at B&H $5995.00.

Price difference is $2297.01, not $3K.

Perhaps don't discount the Leica M-mount adapter, but still under $3K price difference when including an adapter.

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
... Does Panasonic provide lens profiles for Leica glass? ...
According to a sales rep at B&H, the S1R does. I was considering that camera for a time as a replacement for my M-P 240, but I ultimately decided I wanted to stick with a Leica M body.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBlackwell View Post
According to a sales rep at B&H, the S1R does. I was considering that camera for a time as a replacement for my M-P 240, but I ultimately decided I wanted to stick with a Leica M body.
It does not. I checked it out.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBlackwell View Post
According to a sales rep at B&H, the S1R does. I was considering that camera for a time as a replacement for my M-P 240, but I ultimately decided I wanted to stick with a Leica M body.
Bill,

Thanks for the fact.

Interesting to see how far this L-mount collaboration is going. The Panasonic is also weather proofed. It has the advantage of a tilt screen.

Interesting how in one review how they pointed towards Leica glass, as Panasonic having limited offerings. Not sure how dated that review was though.

Things are evolving. I kinda gleen that the S1R also enjoys 5 1/2 stops of image stabilization, but evidently this gets extended to a full 6-stops if the mounted lens has IS. I always wondered how this worked out: if both lens and body had IS. My guess is likely that some IS is turned off on one or the other, but still somehow there is a net gain.

Just imagine shooting at night with 400 ISO and getting results of as if taking the shot at very high shutter speeds.

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
It does not. I checked it out.
Huss,

Thanks. More fact checking required.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
It does not. I checked it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Huss,

Thanks. More fact checking required.

Cal
My question to B&H at the time was this - On the S1R - "If used in conjunction with a Leica L to M adapter (the one with the 6-bit reader), will the 6-bit coded lens info show up in the EXIF data?" The answer that came back was "yes, in this instance the lens info will record in the EXIF data."

I then concluded that those Leica lens profiles must exist in the camera.

If I had indeed bought the camera, and it didn't work this way, I would have returned it.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Is it true that the planned M11 will be in L mount? This could make me think of the SL or SL2.
No, it's not true.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBlackwell View Post
My question to B&H at the time was this - On the S1R - "If used in conjunction with a Leica L to M adapter (the one with the 6-bit reader), will the 6-bit coded lens info show up in the EXIF data?" The answer that came back was "yes, in this instance the lens info will record in the EXIF data."

I then concluded that those Leica lens profiles must exist in the camera.

If I had indeed bought the camera, and it didn't work this way, I would have returned it.
Bill,

What you say makes sense to me.

On my SL the Leica adapters allow reading of 6-bit data of M-Lenses. Also if no 6-bit coding then the entire menu of M-lenses comes up so I can select one.

From Huss I learned that aftermarket adapters you get no lens recognition nor access to Leica lens profiles.

Also I discovered that if I used a Novaflex "F" to "M" adapter stacked on top of the Leica "M" to "L" adapter that I could get access to the M-lens profiles.

With my Noct-Nikkor I am able to utilize the Noctilux F1.2 profile for a good match. Both the Noct-Nikkor and the F1.2 Noctilux have hand ground ASPH lenses.

Basically if a lens or adapter is mounted downstream of the Leica M-adapter that lacks 6-bit coding one gets access to the library of lens profiles for M lenses.

When I stack a Leica "M" to "R" adapter on top of the "M" to "L" adapter, I get the R-lens library of profiles.

I wonder if this works the same on say a S1R? From what you are saying it seems so.

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #100
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Am remembering manual lens configuration of focal length and max aperture even from ancient Nikon D200
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
... I wonder if this works the same on say a S1R? From what you are saying it seems so. ...
... yes, according to the B&H rep. I have found they don't always know what they're talking about, but in this instance I believed him based on information I've obtained elsewhere.

But I've never actually held the S1R camera in my hand and tried it myself.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBlackwell View Post
... yes, according to the B&H rep. I have found they don't always know what they're talking about, but in this instance I believed him based on information I've obtained elsewhere.

But I've never actually held the S1R camera in my hand and tried it myself.
Bill,

I wonder how true a collaboration. I think it would be wonderful if Leica profiles extended across platforms.

Surely this would encourage sales of lenses for Leica. I wonder how far Leica went to protect their profiles? On one hand it could help lens sales, but might encourage body sales for other manufacturers. Also lenses have a longer production cycle, meaning they have a longer envelope of being produced than camera bodies.

Over the long run it makes sense to build lenses with long production lives, meanwhile camera bodies advance and get upgrades in a shorter cycle. Makes sense to me and is in the spirit of "true collaboration." Leica makes more money on lenses than bodies in this business model.

Other options for camera bodies could extend into more sales of lenses for Leica is a possibility if not greedy.

Eventually I'll get the "smut."

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #103
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I’ll say it again I checked it out. There are no profiles with the Panasonics. Also no microlenses in the sensor. And a thicker sensor stack.

This is intentional because if it had that all Leica would have to offer for $3000 more is the red sticker.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #104
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It may be more useful to me to consider getting a used SL with M adapter. It is a very good camera with an excellent EVF. With my M8 and M9, the SL will make a good third camera body.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #105
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I wonder where did the SL2 having "microlenses being optimized for M lenses" statement come from? Doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned by Leica anywhere.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #106
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I watched Hugh Brownstone's (of Three Blind Men and an Elephant fame on YouTube) talk with the man who designed the new lenses for the SL2, and he said the sensor was optimized for the new lenses, not the M's.

But he also explained that the new lenses were designed for 60 line pairs in resolution across the entire frame in testing while the M's are at 40 line pairs, but when you factor in the increase of sensor resolution it somewhat improves the M performance too.

Now if they would just add phase detection AF...

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yilmHb7gx10
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #107
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Wouldnt micro lenses on the SL sensor make it perform worse with the native SL lenses?
If the SL2 actually has them.. because does anyone actually know outside Leica?
We all are just making assumptions.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #108
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Quote:
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I wonder where did the SL2 having "microlenses being optimized for M lenses" statement come from? Doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned by Leica anywhere.
A,

It was mentioned in a tutorial that was by a Leica Specialist that was about 20 minutes in running. Specifically he pointed out and mentioned especially when using wides. He spoke of a fall off of performance at the edges and corners when using other brands.

It seems the short lens flange to sensor distance of rangefinder lenses, particularly when using wides that these optimized microlenses that optimization is most noticed.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #109
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If the SL2 line will make M lenses inferior looking, could this then be the beginning if the end of the Leica M system ?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
I watched Hugh Brownstone's (of Three Blind Men and an Elephant fame on YouTube) talk with the man who designed the new lenses for the SL2, and he said the sensor was optimized for the new lenses, not the M's.

But he also explained that the new lenses were designed for 60 line pairs in resolution across the entire frame in testing while the M's are at 40 line pairs, but when you factor in the increase of sensor resolution it somewhat improves the M performance too.

Now if they would just add phase detection AF...

PF


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yilmHb7gx10

I watched that .
No doubt that the SL is to be the new standard for Leica .
The EVF and new lens mount both open up advantages not possible within the design constraints of the M model .
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #111
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If the SL2 line will make M lenses inferior looking, could this then be the beginning if the end of the Leica M system ?
No.
They are meant to be used on M kameras. Where they are fantastic.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #112
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If the SL2 line will make M lenses inferior looking, could this then be the beginning if the end of the Leica M system ?
Raid,

The M-lenses are not bad, but a new standard of excellance evidently has been created with the SL2 and the native glass.

Like I have said before the APO lenses are the most highly corrected lenses Leica has ever made. Also who makes APO wides?

The new APO glass is "future-proofed" out 3-4 generations which might mean 100-120 MP sensors.

The Leica "Q" is good for an 80 MP sensor I was told by a Leica representative.

The M-mount has constraints and limitations. The "L" mount is less restricted.

My primitive MM is still a great camera...

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #113
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I understand what you are saying, Huss and Cal, but reality is that the M Kingdom is being set aside for the L Kingdom by Leica. Canon went through something similar whan they switched away from the FD mount. Not the same, but kinda "similar".

I wonder what is lost when using SL lenses on an M compared with using such lenses on an SL2. It leaves a negative feeling in the end, doesn't it.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #114
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Quote:
but reality is that the M Kingdom is being set aside for the L Kingdom by Leica
Not according to the Leica Chairman of the Supervisory Board: interview 6 November - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7AQtSbI0U&t=402s
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #115
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I understand what you are saying, Huss and Cal, but reality is that the M Kingdom is being set aside for the L Kingdom by Leica. Canon went through something similar whan they switched away from the FD mount. Not the same, but kinda "similar".

I wonder what is lost when using SL lenses on an M compared with using such lenses on an SL2. It leaves a negative feeling in the end, doesn't it.
Raid,

I think if you read some of the Jono Slack "L" lens reviews you will get a feel for the new APO lenses.

I sent you some F2.0 shots from an APO 35 Cron shot on my SL (only 24 MP) and you see this contrast in the in-focus areas that perceived enhanced sharpness. Then there is this wonderful transition with the OOF.

If you look at the complexity of the SL glass, every lens, including the zooms has partial dispersion glass for APO correction. My 50 Lux has some APO correction, but is not marketed as an APO lens.

Also the amount of ASPH elements within a single lens is more than one. I will check but I believe my APO 35 Cron has three ASPH elements.

My "L" lenses are also weatherproofed.

Cal
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #116
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Not according to the Leica Chairman of the Supervisory Board: interview 6 November - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7AQtSbI0U&t=402s
thanks for the link. perfect summarizing of Instagram: everybody shoots, nobody looks.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #117
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APO 35 Cron 3 ASPH lenses.

50 Lux-"L" 2 ASPH lenses.

APO 50 Cron 3 ASPH lenses, 4 surfaces.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #118
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Not according to the Leica Chairman of the Supervisory Board: interview 6 November - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7AQtSbI0U&t=402s
This man works for Leica. Do you expect him to say otherwise?

Dr. Kaufmann said that the M camera will still be around "ten years from now". This is good to know.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #119
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This man works for Leica. Do you expect him to say otherwise?
He does not only work for Leica, he leads Leica. Just have a look at the interview. I find his explanations as to why Leica would stick with the M system for at least another 10 years quite plausible.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #120
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He does not only work for Leica, he leads Leica. Just have a look at the interview. I find his explanations as to why Leica would stick with the M system for at least another 10 years quite plausible.
I am watching the interview. He stresses the importance of taking photos.
The tolerances of the SL lenses cannot be topped. Very impressive.
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