Old 10-24-2019   #81
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I'm sorry, but I don't care about branding or red dots or any of that foofawraw. I buy Leica gear because it works well for me, better than the competition. I don't know why folks would consider Leica's branding to be a significant reason to purchase camera equipment.

Why do you buy Leica gear? It's probably best to consider most Leica owners to be like you.

G
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Old 10-24-2019   #82
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Some of us appreciate him for what he is rather than criticizing him for what he is not. Over the years I have found some of his information useful. I do not expect Mr. Erwitt to be Mr. Puts or vice versa. Like him or not, he has had a place in the rangefinder world.
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Old 10-24-2019   #83
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Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
I`m not so sure. It enables great photographs to be taken. Although not relevant to the type of photography on this board , the advancement of sophisticated AF systems has made a big difference in sports photography .
Michael,

In my case I ended up doing lots of fashion photography for my gal's blog over the past 5 years.

At first I used my M-Monochrom starting out because it was the only digital I owned. Funny thing is that because all the photography was in B&W "Maggie's" website stood out and got lots of "traction." Pretty much this was one key to her success.

Doing fashion and capturing movement isn't so easy. Autofocus surely helps. The SL is a great camera for this.

I rarely see SL's "In the wild" in NYC while I happen to see a good amount of M-bodies "In the wild."

One thing I learned from my gal is that if you want to stand out, don't do what everyone else is doing.

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Old 10-24-2019   #84
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Hi Cal

I must admit I`ve only ever seen SL`s in a Leica shop.
I would imagine fashion not being easy …. movement /lowlight.
As far as technology goes ,I use what I have and then decide it its useful for the types of shots I take.

Currently using an A7R2 .
I use some of what`s available but don`t need the eye AF (for example).
Thing is I have to live the technology to assess it …. sometimes it makes me change my MO other times not .

Michael
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Old 10-24-2019   #85
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't care about branding or red dots or any of that foofawraw. I buy Leica gear because it works well for me, better than the competition. I don't know why folks would consider Leica's branding to be a significant reason to purchase camera equipment.

Why do you buy Leica gear? It's probably best to consider most Leica owners to be like you.

G
I am sorry that you took my comments as if they were directed at yourself. More to the point, I don't think that Leica's target market will look like it has in the past. Nor will the industry look like it has in the past for that matter. Just because I feel that Leica has positioned itself such that the Leica name and the red dot are their most important assets does not mean that I am pointing fingers at anyone here. Halo products like the M-system don't stick around forever and Leica will likely come up with a replacement at some point.
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Old 10-24-2019   #86
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I`m not so sure. It enables great photographs to be taken. Although not relevant to the type of photography on this board , the advancement of sophisticated AF systems has made a big difference in sports photography .
And if you do sports then use a camera better suited for it than a rangefinder. Noting is better suited for fast paced candid work and street work than a rangefinder. Proper tool and all. If I made my living doing sports then I would have the proper tools but for what I do the tool I use is perfect.
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Old 10-24-2019   #87
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Halo products like the M-system don't stick around forever and Leica will likely come up with a replacement at some point.
Nothing is forever but Leica M has seen a lot of others come and go over the decades it has been around and it's still around.
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Old 10-24-2019   #88
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And if you do sports then use a camera better suited for it than a rangefinder. Noting is better suited for fast paced candid work and street work than a rangefinder. Proper tool and all. If I made my living doing sports then I would have the proper tools but for what I do the tool I use is perfect.
I do .
I thought that your comments about technology were made in a general sense .
I would have to disagree though with the assertion that nothing is better suited for fast paced candid and street work than a rangefinder.
There are plenty of alternatives out there .
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Old 10-24-2019   #89
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Technology doesn't create great photographs. How long did it take Leica to put a meter in an M? I things like auto focus on the M would drive me away. I mean the M is a camera that separates Leica from the herd and everything else that is out there already. You want all that stuff on a camera there is a lot of room to move around. You want something that is like an MM or an M 10 you have Leica. And the M is still their flagship camera.
Not disagreeing w u just stating y it makes no sense from a financial POV to discontinue the M series.
Profitable and iconic.
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Old 10-24-2019   #90
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David,

My gal returned to me a Leica CL (digital) with an AF 23 Cron because as you say a cell phone does what she requires, and know that she is a big time blogger.

Cal
And that is exactly why consumer digital cameras are dying. U gave ur gf a freakin Leica but she prefers her phone.
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Old 10-24-2019   #91
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Not disagreeing w u just stating y it makes no sense from a financial POV to discontinue the M series.
Profitable and iconic.
AGREE. Did you see the waiting list when the M 10 first came out? It was a year long. How many companies would love to have a years worth of sales when their product is first released.
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Old 10-24-2019   #92
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I do .
I thought that your comments about technology were made in a general sense .
I would have to disagree though with the assertion that nothing is better suited for fast paced candid and street work than a rangefinder.
There are plenty of alternatives out there .
There is nothing faster than to be pre focused (DoF scales) and have your exposure pre set.(most auto focus lenses do not have good DoF scales) I've owned and tried most of the other stuff. I guess I am lucky that my professional photography work allows me to have whatever I need to do my job. Out of all the cameras out there I have found that Leica M is the best for me and that the type of work I do and that includes fast paced candid work and my personal work is street.
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Old 10-24-2019   #93
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I am sorry that you took my comments as if they were directed at yourself. More to the point, I don't think that Leica's target market will look like it has in the past. Nor will the industry look like it has in the past for that matter. Just because I feel that Leica has positioned itself such that the Leica name and the red dot are their most important assets does not mean that I am pointing fingers at anyone here. Halo products like the M-system don't stick around forever and Leica will likely come up with a replacement at some point.
If you didn't point your comments at me and other photographers on this forum that buy Leica equipment, who were you pointing them at? Really...

It is of course a given that the audience is/has been changing. As well as the industry. Both have done so time and time again since the invention of photography in 1839. Neither has been static for anything other than a few years at a time. Successful companies adapt to change.

The M has had a very long run and is still a perfectly viable, satisfying camera to use. It is obsolete, but obsolescence has no impact on usability or whether people like a thing. There's evidently enough market for it, despite the high prices and, by some, "obsolete" components in the digital models to remain profitable to manufacture and sell. Nothing wrong with that ... I like and use plenty of obsolete things.

The difficulty with the M is that, like other long in the tooth highly refined things, improvement comes at great expense and with some risk. It only takes a little bit of too much change (technical change for the better) and the audience's expectations of such an archetype is broken and sales plummet. Leica doesn't change the M much because it is successful in its niche the way it is and, in fact, they have very little freedom to improve it without major risk to sales. They are wise to be very conservative about the M and not go too far in any direction beyond the archetype, put their larger development money on newer designs that compete directly with others in the attempt to gain market share and new audience.

G
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Old 10-24-2019   #94
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The difficulty with the M is that, like other long in the tooth highly refined things, improvement comes at great expense and with some risk. It only takes a little bit of too much change (technical change for the better) and the audience's expectations of such an archetype is broken and sales plummet. Leica doesn't change the M much because it is successful in its niche the way it is and, in fact, they have very little freedom to improve it without major risk to sales. They are wise to be very conservative about the M and not go too far in any direction beyond the archetype, put their larger development money on newer designs that compete directly with others in the attempt to gain market share and new audience.

G
Godfrey,

Well said. As long as film is around even old film M's will be around, and even new film M's.

Perhaps not the most popular, but like Huss says "iconic" and somewhat of a cult camera.

Cal
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Old 10-24-2019   #95
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AGREE. Did you see the waiting list when the M 10 first came out? It was a year long. How many companies would love to have a years worth of sales when their product is first released.
Such interest would likely revolve much more around the overall quantity sold than it would the length of the wait list.

Using a guitar analogy, a luthier might have a wait list a couple of years long but might only produce a dozen guitars over the course of each year. This would be a drop in the bucket for a company like Martin Guitars who have many employees to pay. The luthier’s work is in demand because of the painstakingly nuanced approach taken with each and every instrument. This approach is a big part of what the customers are paying for. To me this relates more to what Leica cameras used to be. Moving forward there will be less and less to separate the cameras made by Leica from the others as they become increasingly dependent upon electronics like everyone else. Moving in this direction Leica will continue to need to find new ways of doing things and new people to sell to in order to survive.
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Old 10-24-2019   #96
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The difficulty with the M is that, like other long in the tooth highly refined things, improvement comes at great expense and with some risk. It only takes a little bit of too much change (technical change for the better) and the audience's expectations of such an archetype is broken and sales plummet. Leica doesn't change the M much because it is successful in its niche the way it is and, in fact, they have very little freedom to improve it without major risk to sales.

Example: the M5.

If the M5 had looked exactly like an M4, it would have been a huge success. An M4 with a built-in TTL meter? That's a can't-miss sales success.
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Old 10-24-2019   #97
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I would guess that the real value to Leica is not the profit made on the M-system itself but the impact (influence) it has on the sales of their other product lines.
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Old 10-24-2019   #98
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There is nothing faster than to be pre focused (DoF scales) and have your exposure pre set.(most auto focus lenses do not have good DoF scales) I've owned and tried most of the other stuff. I guess I am lucky that my professional photography work allows me to have whatever I need to do my job. Out of all the cameras out there I have found that Leica M is the best for me and that the type of work I do and that includes fast paced candid work and my personal work is street.
My AF Nikons have no scales.
M lenses with fast focus helical have a scale so "squished" as to be not usable. But my 75 2.0 APO
is a favorite anyway scale is 3mm each side.

Depth of field is an illusion anyway because I can certainly tell the focus plane from that which is supposed to be in focus.
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Old 10-24-2019   #99
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If you didn't point your comments at me and other photographers on this forum that buy Leica equipment, who were you pointing them at? Really...
I was/am speaking in terms of Leica’s customer base overall, not just as it relates to the few people discussing this topic here. I do not believe that the active member base discussing this topic is representative of a majority of Leica’s customer base. Moving forward in to the future I imagine this will be even less so.

I use Leica gear but it has been almost twenty years since I last bought any. While I do not use it all that frequently but I do like what I have and it works just fine for me. I will admit that I was drawn to Leica in part because of their reputation. The overall level of quality combining the outer simplicity with the inner mechanical complexity appealed to me. In my case this extends beyond cameras — I have similar preferences when it comes to things like motorcycles and cars for example. In some ways I suppose that I might be more representative of Leica’s overall customer base than yourself and others here.

Here is a thought that does relate to the members active in this discussion. I do wonder for example amongst those of you who use digital M cameras just how many takers there would be if a company like Sony were to wrap one of their top of the line cameras in the same exterior packaging as a Leica M, selling it for significantly less money. Make it a M mount to boot. Would you be likely to buy it over Leica’s offerings?
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Old 10-24-2019   #100
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There is nothing faster than to be pre focused (DoF scales) and have your exposure pre set.(most auto focus lenses do not have good DoF scales)
I photographed for over ten years just like that both with my three M bodies and my Rollie 35S.
I know the drill but I no longer use my M bodies like that these days .
These days a fast AF is good enough for me .
My two AF Batis lenses do have DOF scales by the way.
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Old 10-24-2019   #101
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I was/am speaking in terms of Leica’s customer base overall, not just as it relates to the few people discussing this topic here. I do not believe that the active member base discussing this topic is representative of a majority of Leica’s customer base. Moving forward in to the future I imagine this will be even less so.

I use Leica gear but it has been almost twenty years since I last bought any. While I do not use it all that frequently but I do like what I have and it works just fine for me. I will admit that I was drawn to Leica in part because of their reputation. The overall level of quality combining the outer simplicity with the inner mechanical complexity appealed to me. In my case this extends beyond cameras — I have similar preferences when it comes to things like motorcycles and cars for example. In some ways I suppose that I might be more representative of Leica’s overall customer base than yourself and others here. ...
Leica is a privately held company again now, and there's no demographic information available to the public on who exactly is purchasing their products. However, their annual profit and loss statements show that they are amongst the few camera equipment companies that are not only turning a profit on their camera and lens offerings, but are growing.

I would venture to say that people on a "rangefinder forum", regardless how few or how tenuous the relationship, DO actually constitute a substantive portion of their customer base, however. I am one of those people. So you are, in fact, referring to me, and to many people in this forum {and presumably on this discussion thread}.

Similar to you, the majority of the Leica gear I have purchased, aside from a few bodies and a couple of lenses in the past decade (most of which have been resold already as my needs/desires changed) is equipment that is all more than twenty years old. The exceptions to this of the gear I have now are the CL body and two lenses, a Summicron-M 50mm and a Summarit-M 75mm. The most recent piece of Leica gear in my current kit past those two is an early '90s R6.2 body. Everything else is far older ... no need to replace it, it all works to my satisfaction.

The qualities of Leica products that you mention, aside from their reputation— correlated with motorcycle, car, and other products—are exactly the same qualities that I enjoy ... So I suspect that we are both quite representative of Leica buyers even regardless of the rangefinder forum relationship.

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...
Here is a thought that does relate to the members active in this discussion. I do wonder for example amongst those of you who use digital M cameras just how many takers there would be if a company like Sony were to wrap one of their top of the line cameras in the same exterior packaging as a Leica M, selling it for significantly less money. Make it a M mount to boot. Would you be likely to buy it over Leica’s offerings?
Having owned a plethora of Sony equipment over the past 20 years, including the A7 series bodies, I wouldn't buy such a copycat bodge unless Sony actually learned how to make a shutter that was worth calling that name. And Sony will NEVER have the temerity to invest such a camera the way Leica did, that is, with lens profiles that ensure to the greatest degree possible that all the lenses ever made by the company for their lens mounts continue to work and render with the same qualities and fidelity as they did for the cameras of whatever era they came from. That's how Leica values their customers investment in ancient equipment like you and I have, and why I dumped my Sony A7 kit as soon as I could manage to get a Leica body with a lens and an appropriate viewfinder to use with my ancient M and R lenses.

I value the M and R lenses I have much more than the premium price it takes to buy a new Leica digital body that allows them to perform the same as they always did on my film M and R bodies... because I value the quality of the photographs they make beyond anything else when it comes to photographic equipment.

G
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Old 10-24-2019   #102
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Old 10-24-2019   #103
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I do wonder for example amongst those of you who use digital M cameras just how many takers there would be if a company like Sony were to wrap one of their top of the line cameras in the same exterior packaging as a Leica M, selling it for significantly less money. Make it a M mount to boot. Would you be likely to buy it over Leica’s offerings?
If they were to make a camera just like the M 10 and exactly the way it functions at half the price I would buy it. But if they (Sony) were to produce the same functionality that they do now only in the shell like a Leica M I'll stay with my Ms.
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Old 10-24-2019   #104
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Putts is spot on, only that Leica lost it´s soul years ago when they started to take the path from working photographer's tool to "rich man's accessory".

The M is still cool but not ten-thousand $ cool. Thanks but no.
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Old 10-25-2019   #105
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At the core of their business Leica make stuff to make photographic images.

I think what Leica are doing by getting more into the software behind image creation is anticipating the changes that are coming in the industry from developments like the Lytro and L16, and trying to get ahead of them and keep the company relevant. In this business model the cameras and lenses are not the main business, the image sensors and software processing behind them are the main business, and in this respect maybe Leica feel that having a platform of world class hardware technology to support the software is where they perhaps have an advantage. Frankly, if Leica stick to only making cameras based upon historical typologies then they risk going the same way as Kodak.

From my own selfish perspective, as long as Leica are able to continue making really nice usable cameras like my M262 as a result of their current strategy, then I'm content.
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Old 10-25-2019   #106
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Guitars aside, I suppose we're done with Mr. Puts. Cheers.
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Old 10-25-2019   #107
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...And clearly there needs to be a guitar café thread on RFF. (I have the gear to be a noxious and enviable presence there, ha ha. Though why aren’t some of you members of Jazz Guitar Forum?)

An RFF guitar thread, for Leicaphiles and Leicaphobes alike, who think nothing of spending as much (or more) as on the latest M for niche jazzer instruments like luthier archtops, or big-ad celebrity-promoted marques like Collings. Oh delicious irony! I propose that everyone who has name-dropped a guitar here post images of it in the existing Guitar thread, which may be in W/NW (?). I’ll show mine if you show yours.

Re Mr Puts—Loss of an intelligent resource on Leica and rangefinders is regrettable. But the richly varied anecdotal and critical Leica-testimony here is entertaining and mostly well-informed, especially when you subtract ad hominem content.
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Old 10-25-2019   #108
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1] ...

2] With all this talk about Huawei potentially allowing Chinese spying ... I take it for granted that everything containing anything by Microsoft is potentially read by the US counterpart. Pick you poison or grab a paper and pencil and use old fashioned snail mail

...
I happen to have an immutable grudge against Microsoft.

But to compare the Microsoft to Huawei is absurd.

Huawei is under indictment by the US. Huawei illegally violated US sanctions on Iran. This article published in the Guardian contains details.
.
It is true no operating system and, or on-line device is 100% safe from advanced cyber spying tools used by governments. Very few individuals need to fear cyber spying because governments don't waste resources intercepting data from ordinary people.

Individuals who are not committing Federal crimes and particularly individuals who are not conducting illegal activities in concert with foreign governments have nothing to fear.
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Old 10-25-2019   #109
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I happen to have an immutable grudge against Microsoft.

But to compare the Microsoft to Huawei is absurd.

Huawei is under indictment by the US. Huawei illegally violated US sanctions on Iran. This article published in the Guardian contains details.
.
It is true no operating system and, or on-line device is 100% safe from advanced cyber spying tools used by governments. Very few individuals need to fear cyber spying because governments don't waste resources intercepting data from ordinary people.

Individuals who are not committing Federal crimes and particularly individuals who are not conducting illegal activities in concert with foreign governments have nothing to fear.

Willie,

I am very fearful of the data mining that goes on. After the credit crisis somehow I was profiled and mistaken as a very elite and wealthy guy just because I bought some expensive luxury items and paid them off right away.

Somehow I received a free subscription to Forbes, just in case I wanted to buy a small Island in the Caribean or buy into a developing country.

In one year I got 4 invites to meet then Mayor Bloomberg. I only met with him once and the other three times I snubbed him. LOL. While all the other men wore suits to this event I went ghetto and wore a Hawian shirt looking like a surfer on the porch of Gracie Mansion.

I got invited to join "The Hudson Society" where I could meet with influential wealthy people and attend meetings with Generals, Heads of State, and Prime Ministers.

The Internet is not secure, and I would advise to keep a very small digital footprint.

Cal
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Old 10-25-2019   #110
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...And clearly there needs to be a guitar café thread on RFF. I propose that everyone who has name-dropped a guitar here post images of it in the existing Guitar thread, which may be in W/NW (?). I’ll show mine if you show yours.
Good idea RHL heading there right now!
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Old 10-25-2019   #111
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So what is going on in Wetzlar? How is "a renewed interest in classical products" the result of the "eradication" of "the soul of Leica products"? How is the M-system "sidelined"? What are "the ghosts of Huawei and Panasonic"? Why are the SL and Q the "hopeful products of the future"?
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Old 10-25-2019   #112
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Quote:
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...And clearly there needs to be a guitar café thread on RFF. I propose that everyone who has name-dropped a guitar here post images of it in the existing Guitar thread, which may be in W/NW (?). I’ll show mine if you show yours.
Good idea RHL heading there right now!
Yep, but this thread is NOT about guitars.

Keep ON Topic. start the other guitar thread.

Guitars will soon be gone from this thread.
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Old 10-25-2019   #113
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The camera division of Leica is nothing if not gradualist and conservative. Very few design changes over a century in LTM and M—a century where many camera companies went boom and bust. And once the digital (r)evolution began, Leica took measured steps to integrate the old and new. And is still doing so, it appears to me, rather than cramming more computing power, auto-everything, and another row of Fn buttons into a design Roger Hicks described as “melted plastic ashtray.”

My M246 and MD 262 are not my only user cameras*, but they’re my first call cameras, and they sit quite comfortably beside my M3 in the bag and on the shelf. (But one of these days some youngsters who are still babes in arms are going to covet my Leica T, even if Mr Puts didn’t care for Leica going that way.)

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*A7II Kolari, RX1, SD Quattro, DP Quattro 2, DP Merrill 3, GR
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Old 10-25-2019   #114
james.liam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aizan View Post
So what is going on in Wetzlar? How is "a renewed interest in classical products" the result of the "eradication" of "the soul of Leica products"? How is the M-system "sidelined"? What are "the ghosts of Huawei and Panasonic"? Why are the SL and Q the "hopeful products of the future"?
All mysterious allusions, probably to some conversations he much have had at Wetzlar. Someone must really have pissed him off.

"A renewed interest in classical products"? He writes extensively on emulsions and developers. Maybe he's leaping back into film but how then does the SL hold the hope of the future? The Luke Skywalker of Wetzlar? Lenses the size & weight of small children...

And "eradication" of "the soul of Leica products"? The M10 is about as close as I can fancy the "spirit of Leica" as can be embodied in a digital Camera. As the 4th digital iteration it finally coincides with haptics, size, basic controls, silent shutter of a film Leica. There are hundreds of thousands of older M lenses with unique personalities out there to experiment with instead of spending your children inheritance on a 28 Summilux and 50 + 75 Noctiluxii.

What are "the ghosts of Huawei and Panasonic"? I guess he's not into consumer-grade rebadged "Leica"? OK. But the bills must be paid.

Huawei is an organized criminal operation absconding with everything it comes into contact with, so I get that concern. Shame they didn't bond with Apple for iPhone lens sets.
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Old 11-01-2019   #115
Bike Tourist
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This seems to be valid. I took a different path to his actual website and read the same message. I helped him out recently by buying his latest book. It doesn't change anything for me. I have my Leica and my Nikon and, between them, they keep me in the game at my advanced age.
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