Old 08-21-2019   #121
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Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."

To use a more modern example, consider Netflix (or other on-demand video streaming service). With all the choices at our fingertips, how many of us have spent an hour browsing for something to watch, only to watch nothing in the end?

Or consider how modern photographers (myself included) obsess over features, specs, resolution, and megapixels, yet struggle with good composition or making a compelling image?
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Old 08-21-2019   #122
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Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."
I think that is fine as long as you admit that the problem is you and not the camera. Rarely happens. Default is to blame the camera.
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Old 08-21-2019   #123
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I think that is fine as long as you admit that the problem is you and not the camera. Rarely happens. Default is to blame the camera.
You`ve never used a camera that didn`t work for you? One that you didn`t like? or do you love them all equally? Sure, that might be a problem with the person, but there are certainly poorly designed products. We can all use anything to make photographs, but the reason there are so many types of cameras is to meet different needs / wants of the people using them.
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Old 08-21-2019   #124
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You`ve never used a camera that didn`t work for you? One that you didn`t like? or do you love them all equally? Sure, that might be a problem with the person, but there are certainly poorly designed products. We can all use anything to make photographs, but the reason there are so many types of cameras is to meet different needs / wants of the people using them.
My first camera, an Exakta VXii, didn't work out for me, largely because it was unreliable, but I really haven't had any problem with any of my other cameras over the past 40 or so years. They are just tools.
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Old 08-21-2019   #125
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Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."

To use a more modern example, consider Netflix (or other on-demand video streaming service). With all the choices at our fingertips, how many of us have spent an hour browsing for something to watch, only to watch nothing in the end?

Or consider how modern photographers (myself included) obsess over features, specs, resolution, and megapixels, yet struggle with good composition or making a compelling image?
Here's the false equivalency in your analysis. Yes. I have Netflix. Yes I have scrolled past offerings and have actuallly watched a bunch of trailers and wound up just watching trailers and either dozed off or decided to do something else...

However, I have many menus and choices at my fingertips with respect to how my TV is set up. What screen saver, different picture "modes". Brightness contrast settings, "cinema" mode, many more.

However, I don't let these choices "get in the way" of how I consume this content. Like I hit the "power button" and flip to the channel (or service) I want and press "select".

Despite having menus and submenus of choices, that I could easily obsess over (if I was insane), I set-up the TV when I first got it and now only use a very few of the scads of modes and choices available. I simply tune to Ancient Aliens, pro-rasslin', Mr Ed reruns (what have you) set back and watch consuming adult libations until I pass out on the sofa only to wake up bewildered and disoriented at 3:30 am.

Cameras?

Same deal.
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Old 08-21-2019   #126
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They are just tools.
Yeah, I guess some of us headcases just like some tools more than others...
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Old 08-21-2019   #127
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I simply tune to Ancient Aliens, pro-rasslin', Mr Ed reruns (what have you) set back and watch consuming adult libations until I pass out on the sofa only to wake up bewildered and disoriented at 3:30 am.

Cameras?

Same deal.
But imagine if that TV only had 3 channels with only those options 24/7!
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Old 08-21-2019   #128
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But imagine if that TV only had 3 channels with only those options 24/7!
You mean Leica TV?
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Old 08-21-2019   #129
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It's funny, I’ve never bought a Leica because it was German. I bought it because it was a great rangefinder.
I only bought Leicas because I thought they were Portuguese.... now you're telling me they're German?! Criminy.

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Old 08-21-2019   #130
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I only bought Leicas because I thought they were Portuguese.... now you're telling me they're German?! Criminy.

Dante

There bye hangs a tale.
I first "got into " Leica in the early eighties.
Being a birder I bought a pair of Leica Trinovid 8x40 binos only to discover they were made in Portugal.

They`ve been "at it " for years.
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Old 08-21-2019   #131
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Yeah, I guess some of us headcases just like some tools more than others...
I don't think my photography would have been any different if I had chosen a different camera brand.
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Old 08-21-2019   #132
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When I look at what is inside of the M10 for example, the only logic that makes sense to me when it comes to the pricing structure of the digital M's is the velben reference made elsewhere in this thread.

Luxury isn't necessarily about logic so much as feelings.
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Old 08-21-2019   #133
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I don't think my photography would have been any different if I had chosen a different camera brand.
I can tell you one thing, I’ve learned that the Leica M, as beautiful as it is, is one of the worse cameras for what I want to do. I’m not a zoom user or long tele user either... 50mm is my favorite focal length. I’ve come find that I prefer shutter priority, an EVF and AF none of which an M offers.
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Old 08-21-2019   #134
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Luxury isn't necessarily about logic so much as feelings.
Yes, that is why I pointed out and agreed with the velben reference. Were Leica products overall and M system components in particular priced at far less than they are now, my belief is that those feelings would largely disappear. This would be wonderful for those who are using these cameras as tools of their trade. But only for as long as Leica could remain in business. Under such a pricing model I can’t imagine there being enough demand for their M cameras in particular for Leica to continue on with them. I think that it is a very tricky balancing act that Leica find themselves in.
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Old 08-21-2019   #135
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Si

I can tell you one thing, I’ve learned that the Leica M, as beautiful as it is, is one of the worse cameras for what I want to do. I’m not a zoom user or long tele user either... 50mm is my favorite focal length. I’ve come find that I prefer shutter priority, an EVF and AF none of which an M offers.
This …. unfortunately .
I have a zoom although I`m not really a zoom user by inclination.
My tele use only extends to 135mm but I do prefer an EVF and AF .
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Old 08-21-2019   #136
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I don't think my photography would have been any different if I had chosen a different camera brand.



This is probably true. But there are two words in your reply (chosen and brand) that muddy the waters even for you. It's never just a tool.
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Old 08-21-2019   #137
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This is probably true. But there are two words in your reply (chosen and brand) that muddy the waters even for you. It's never just a tool.
I can not look at this statement without thinking of things in the literal sense. When it comes to those who choose to turn their own wrenches, their preferred tools can run a wide gamut. Professional mechanics might choose to purchase tools from the likes of Snap-On, MAC or Wright. The reluctant home mechanic on the other hand might choose to buy whatever Harbor Freight or their local auto parts store might have on sale. The reasoning behind their respective purchases extends beyond simple budget considerations. This is not all that different than how individual photographers prefer certain cameras over others. Price, build quality, support, ergonomics and compatibility with other tools in the system might all come into play to varying degrees. So it goes with photo gear.

The biggest difference in this analogy is that the high-end tool brands hold almost no cachet with the casual mechanic and likely none at all amongst those who never work on anything themselves. Were that the case those tool brands would likely be priced much higher. As things sit now, as long as those actually using the tools find them pleasing to work with or at least useful at a minimum then all is good. But you can bet that forums focused on the mechanics of the world feature conversations about hand tools that are very similar to this and numerous other similar threads. There is nothing new happening here.
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Old 08-21-2019   #138
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I will give just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

Auto focus. By the time the lens quits hunting or you move to the right auto focus point the moment is long gone.

Difficult light and when on auto it getting the wrong exposure, missed moment again.

Those are just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

I doubt that will satisfy anyone but me but that, in my case, is all that is important so I to am out.
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Old 08-21-2019   #139
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I first got a Contax IIa because I didn't want to get into the whole Leica M "thing", while having a bayonet mount system. But I didn't care for the viewfinder, and switched to a Nikon S2. The body was more to my liking, and it has a better finder, but I still had to use an auxiliary finder (unless I switched to the Bessa R2S, which has a three lens limit).


So I finally broke down and got a Leica M4-P to take advantage of all the frame lines in the finder. It just works better for me, and I like the range of lenses available so I can scrimp a bit by choosing an off brand, while still getting good results. Later on I plan on replacing some of those lenses with Leica models.


I did a lot of bargain shopping to put the kit together, so at least I'm still not totally buying in to the Leica mystique. It is but a means to take photos, albeit a darn fine looking one at that. That is, other than the dent in the top cover that dropped the selling price by at least a couple hundred dollars, and which made me not worry about keeping it pristine.


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Old 08-21-2019   #140
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When I bought my New F-1s in 1982 they were $525 a piece, The price of a Leica M4P IIRC was around $1000. I remember the price being about double because I was actually thinking about buying one.

In the late 1970s I paid almost $500 for the old F-1.
Looking up prices in Popular Photography, we find that the difference between Leica and other brands still wasn't that big in the times of the M4-P (1980-1986). In 1982, the price of a Leica M4-P was $699.95 on discount. The regular price was $809.95.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3S...20M4-p&f=false

At the same time, a Canon New F-1 body with the plain finder was $479.95, and $534.95 with the much more common AE finder.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3S...page&q&f=false

Here are the original prices:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $809.95
Leica M4-P (discounted): $699.95
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $479.95
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $534.95

And here are prices adjusted for inflation:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $2,153.47
Leica M4-P (discounted): $1,861
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $1,276.08
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $1,422.31

If I was shopping in 1982, the most probable scenario would have been whether to get a $699.95 Leica M4-P or a $534.95 Canon New F-1 w/AE finder, so that's just a $165 difference. In today's dollars, we're talking $1860 vs. $1420 ($440). Leicas were not much more expensive than other brands.

This is a great example of why documents are valuable.
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Old 08-21-2019   #141
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Looking up prices in Popular Photography, we find that the difference between Leica and other brands still wasn't that big in the times of the M4-P (1980-1986). In 1982, the price of a Leica M4-P was $699.95 on discount. The regular price was $809.95.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3S...20M4-p&f=false

At the same time, a Canon New F-1 body with the plain finder was $479.95, and $534.95 with the much more common AE finder.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3S...page&q&f=false

Here are the original prices:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $809.95
Leica M4-P (discounted): $699.95
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $479.95
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $534.95

And here are prices adjusted for inflation:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $2,153.47
Leica M4-P (discounted): $1,861
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $1,276.08
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $1,422.31

If I was shopping in 1982, the most probable scenario would have been whether to get a $699.95 Leica M4-P or a $534.95 Canon New F-1 w/AE finder, so that's just a $165 difference. In today's dollars, we're talking $1860 vs. $1420 ($440). Leicas were not much more expensive than other brands.

This is a great example of why documents are valuable.
My local camera store: M262 (discounted) is $6195.95CDN
Sony A7R IV is $4495.95

Leica cameras were, and continue to be, (more) expensive. Almost identical ratio.

As a side note the SL is listed at $8095.
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Old 08-21-2019   #142
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Yeah, but you're comparing the discounted budget version of the previous generation Leica that's almost 4 years old with the latest and greatest, 1 month old, extra high-end Sony.

If we were comparing without putting on our Leicaphile glasses, we'd probably be talking about the $7,295 Leica M10 vs. the $1,998 Sony A7 III, which is the true equivalent of the $699.95 ($1,861) Leica M4-P vs. $534.95 ($1,422.31) Canon New F-1 comparison.
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Old 08-21-2019   #143
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I will give just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

Auto focus. By the time the lens quits hunting or you move to the right auto focus point the moment is long gone.

Difficult light and when on auto it getting the wrong exposure, missed moment again.

Those are just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

I doubt that will satisfy anyone but me but that, in my case, is all that is important so I to am out.
Must have been a while since you`ve used AF.
The new Sony cams have non of those issues.
AF locks on an sticks like glue .
No need for you to move the focus point .

I wouldn`t get half the shots that I do with manual focus …. I know , I tried for years.

Still use my M`s bit not for anything which moves .
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Old 08-22-2019   #144
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Sorry I don’t understand this post at all.

The M market is a very small, niche market.

Low volume + high demand + high labor costs = high prices.
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Old 08-22-2019   #145
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For me personally, no.

After purchasing M6, 35 f2 'Cron, and 90 f2.8 Thin Tele-Elmarit in the 80's, I've been buying all my Leica equipment used since then - (except for a couple of pair of new Leitz Binos).
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Old 08-22-2019   #146
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For me personally, no.

After purchasing M6, 35 f2 'Cron, and 90 f2.8 Thin Tele-Elmarit in the 80's, I've been buying all my Leica equipment used since then - (except for a couple of pair of new Leitz Binos).

I’ve never bought any gear ‘new’ but appreciate people who do. After all somebody has to buy it new in order to make it used one day!!
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Old 08-22-2019   #147
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Must have been a while since you`ve used AF.
The new Sony cams have non of those issues.
AF locks on an sticks like glue .
No need for you to move the focus point .

I wouldn`t get half the shots that I do with manual focus …. I know , I tried for years.

Still use my M`s bit not for anything which moves .
That's what I was thinking too. My X-Pro2 and f2 prime lenses are like greased lightning in the auto-focus mode. Point-shoot-nailed! Take it to the bank.

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Old 08-22-2019   #148
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Please explain how technology "gets in the way".
Old timers don't like change. See also the distrust of Film cameras that use 'batteries', in camera metering, auto-focus etc
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Old 08-22-2019   #149
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Yeah, but you're comparing the discounted budget version of the previous generation Leica that's almost 4 years old with the latest and greatest, 1 month old, extra high-end Sony.

If we were comparing without putting on our Leicaphile glasses, we'd probably be talking about the $7,295 Leica M10 vs. the $1,998 Sony A7 III, which is the true equivalent of the $699.95 ($1,861) Leica M4-P vs. $534.95 ($1,422.31) Canon New F-1 comparison.
you're right, but I did that on purpose. You compared a discounted M4P (reintroduced old tech) to a Canon F-1 AE. The spread in price is much higher now, as you mention. One explanation is Leica as a brand is very successful. Being reassuring expensive goes a long way.
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Old 08-22-2019   #150
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Old timers don't like change. See also the distrust of Film cameras that use 'batteries', in camera metering, auto-focus etc

"My daguerreotype camera didn't need any of those new-fangled battery things!"
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Old 08-22-2019   #151
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I'm not afraid of new technology, just the cost of it. But I did finally get a meter for my M4-P.


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Old 08-23-2019   #152
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Sorry I don’t understand this post at all.

The M market is a very small, niche market.

Low volume + high demand + high labor costs = high prices.
I have to agree - like every other product price on the planet, M camera/lens prices are ruled by the laws of economics.

Like the laws of physics, you can ignore the laws of economics, but you cannot ignore the results of ignoring the laws of economics.

Since Leica is still in business and demand for the M cameras and lenses remain high, it appears that Leica is doing several things correctly.
Exploiting their customers does not fit the definition of doing several things correctly.


Quote:
...Does Leica view M mount users as suckers/rich hobbyists?
There is no evidence of that line of thinking in Wetzlar, particularly since the majority of Magnum photographers work with Leica M cameras and lenses. If there is any one group of photographers who cannot be regarded as "suckers/rich hobbyists," it would have to be Magnum's august roster of photographers.
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Old 08-23-2019   #153
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I have to agree - like every other product price on the planet, M camera/lens prices are ruled by the laws of economics.

Like the laws of physics, you can ignore the laws of economics, but you cannot ignore the results of ignoring the laws of economics.

Since Leica is still in business and demand for the M cameras and lenses remain high, it appears that Leica is doing several things correctly.
Exploiting their customers does not fit the definition of doing several things correctly.


There is no evidence of that line of thinking in Wetzlar, particularly since the majority of Magnum photographers work with Leica M cameras and lenses. If there is any one group of photographers who cannot be regarded as "suckers/rich hobbyists," it would have to be Magnum's august roster of photographers.
When Leica fist came out with their little marvel of a camera, I'm sure there were plenty of folks who said it would never fly. But they persisted in improving it with each new model, and they eventually built up a following. With the customer service model they instituted, even more die-hard fans of the marque were created.

But things change over time, not to mention management. Perhaps the corporation lost its way for a while when new owners had other ideas about how to run the place, but I don't think they had the gall to actually play the customers for fools (who can forget the M5 fiasco?). They have tried to be innovative, while at the same time keeping traditional values in place. It hasn't always worked. But carry on they do, within funding constraints.

It's like all the special promotional versions they create for the collectors. I can sit here and go "Why?", but ultimately it's to bring in the cash, and keep up interest until the next new model comes out. Anything to help the bottom line, and fund improvements.

Camera manufacturing today is an extremely complicated venture, what with all the competition from the various formats, and phones. Choose the wrong features to put in the next model, and you could doom the company to oblivion. So to play the customer just for their cash, and not their loyalty would be a grave mistake on Leica's part. But at the speed that market forces change these days, they certainly can't afford to price themselves out of it. I think they are riding that line with a fine balance.

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Old 08-23-2019   #154
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How much does the manufacture of a digital M cost (including know how etc etc)?
The difference between that and the final price could be a hint if Leica does take advantage of their M users.

In the car world its Ferrari that makes the most profit...
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Old 08-24-2019   #155
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Originally Posted by santino View Post
How much does the manufacture of a digital M cost (including know how etc etc)?
The difference between that and the final price could be a hint if Leica does take advantage of their M users.

In the car world its Ferrari that makes the most profit...
If you want an analogy in the car world, look no further than Ford. No more cars, only trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. And way over priced at that.

Of course, I guess you could say that Leica built their new headquarters park from the profits, instead of lowering the price of the cameras and lenses.

PF
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Old 08-25-2019   #156
icebear
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In any category of goods you can buy low end and high end and somewhere in the middle. If you intend to use it only once in a while maybe low end is just OK, if it breaks you won't bother with a repair, support commerce, don't care about the environment and just get new one.

If you want something more reliable but can't afford high end or it's just not that important for you, you go for somewhere in the middle and you'll be ok with stuff doing it's job. If you are passionate about using the tool and doing the task and like to use things for a long time and will have it repaired if needed, then you go for high end.

It's all a matter of priorties. No one is forced to buy high end, but typically if you do, you will enjoy it much more.
I'm talking actual users here not people* who just buy it for the red dot.
[* insert you favorite "suit"]

So to think that Leica is taking advantage of M-users is beside the point. They are not telling you something about the product that once you buy it turns out not to be true. That's my idea of being taken advantage of. If the pictures don't come out great, it's the user who sucks. It's not the camera that takes a picture, it's still the user. Particularly true with an M range body.

If someone is more happy with the results from a cheaper auto everything camera, then he made the wrong choice getting into M or Leica for that matter.

And for good measure I have 2/50 Planar which I think is a great lens at 1/10(?) the price of the 2/50 asph and most likely you have to start splitting hairs on large format prints to decide which was taken with the Zeiss or the Leica lens. I have no intention to get the cutting edge asph 50. I almost exclusively use a 2/75 asph since about 2 years. I bought that lens used shortly after it was released (maybe 10 years ago?) and someone sold it off quickly. I think I paid $2G's. I would make money if I sold it used now.

If you buy anything high end new you loose money the moment you walk out the store, drive off the lot etc. After the intital hit it will retain value much better than somewhere in the middle stuff.
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Old 08-25-2019   #157
NickTrop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
Old timers don't like change. See also the distrust of Film cameras that use 'batteries', in camera metering, auto-focus etc
The irony (rather extreme, actually) is that these were added to cameras so such things as focusing, advancing the film, and using an external meter and transferring the settings to the camera get out of the way.
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Old 08-25-2019   #158
JeffS7444
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Leica M in appeals to a small but passionate number of fans: Gotta pay a premium to make it worthwhile for Leica to continue producing them!

These are strange times in the photo and automotive industries and probably elsewhere as overall demand has simply evaporated yet we don't seem to be in a recession.
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Old 08-25-2019   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffS7444 View Post
Leica M in appeals to a small but passionate number of fans: Gotta pay a premium to make it worthwhile for Leica to continue producing them!.
I'm pretty sure the M series is Leica's best selling line/biggest money maker.

If they didn't make the M, they'd be left with nothing to keep the company alive.
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Old 08-25-2019   #160
noisycheese
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Quote:
...So to think that Leica is taking advantage of M-users is beside the point...
No one forces people to buy Leica M cameras and lenses - they do it of their own free will.


I have been to camera stores that sell Leica M gear several times. I have never seen a sales person holding a gun to a Leica M buyer's head.
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