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Old 5 Days Ago   #41
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Sounds odd to me. I've never had anyone ask me how many rolls of film I shoot, so they wouldn't have a clue whether I shoot one or a thousand rolls of film a year, or how often I print. But then I don't volunteer a lot of information. I just go about making images. How many rolls one shoots and how often one prints really doesn't tell you much about the ability of a photographer. The proof is in the print.
Ok, as one of the people who urged Cal to print during this period, you have to understand one thing... we photographed together every single weekend for years and we talked about photography a lot over these days (and specifically about his photos that I did not see). I think it was only natural for me to have wanted to see his photos at the time... after years of going out together. Just a little back story from one of the people that gave him a hard time. Please note that Cal did start printing eventually... and went all in. Our friendship did suffer for awhile, but we survived it.

By the way, I think there is some wisdom to GW's philosophy. The longer you take to look at your images, the less likely you are to be attached to the crap. I find editing after not looking at the photos for awhile a lot easier. No emotional attachment to the physical act of making the photos... just attachment to what works. IMO.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #42
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
By the way, I think there is some wisdom to GW's philosophy. The longer you take to look at your images, the less likely you are to be attached to the crap. I find editing after not looking at the photos for awhile a lot easier. No emotional attachment to the physical act of making the photos... just attachment to what works. IMO.
There may be a bit of wisdom in it, but I demur. I know I am now more critical now of prints that I made in the past, and have done some winnowing of my archive, but I think that comes from living with them, not living without them, and improving my craft over time. The more ruthless you are in editing at the outset, the less often that occurs. I've definitely gotten better at editing (letting go?) over the years.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #43
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It takes me forever to shoot a 36-exposure roll of B&W. By the time I've gotten to the end, and put the film in for processing, and picked it up 2-3 weeks later, I've forgotten what was on the roll. Being 76 years old helps, too. I find that I forget some stuff very easily nowadays.:roll eyes:

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Old 5 Days Ago   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
A.D. Coleman used to compare Winogrand to a monkey with a camera strapped to his head that would randomly shoot pictures of whatever the monkey happened to be facing at the moment the camera randomly fired its shutter.

I remember pissing off my photo professor in art school, who was a huge Winogrand fan, by reading one of Coleman's articles about G.W. in class
That cracked me up Chris. One of the things I edited out of my original post was that of all well known photographers, Winogrand was the closest to a monkey with a camera! Funny to see Coleman thought the same. I'll have to see if I can find that.

Thanks for the chuckle.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #45
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I develop once i finish the roll, i like the lifestyle and the security to see what i got and that i did indeed get it. But I’m happy to wait for emotions to settle before printing it to try to be a little more subjective. That’s primarily 120 film though, which maybe lends itself a bit more naturally to a more selective way of exposing film.

I don’t know GW’s MO but many of these celebrated photographers didn’t have to trouble themselves with actually developing, let alone printing their work, outsourcing it to others and becoming a client to the end product which I’m sure would make a big difference to the experience.

I couldn’t imagine shooting so much film, i don’t think my thumb could take it!
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Old 5 Days Ago   #46
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my patience is 12-15 rolls max., GW as said above was born in the perfect time for what he was doing though he did have his style/eye which was his signature.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
There may be a bit of wisdom in it, but I demur. I know I am now more critical now of prints that I made in the past, and have done some winnowing of my archive, but I think that comes from living with them, not living without them, and improving my craft over time. The more ruthless you are in editing at the outset, the less often that occurs. I've definitely gotten better at editing (letting go?) over the years.
I think we are saying the same thing... kind of... your last sentence sums it up.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #48
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Originally Posted by PRJ View Post
That cracked me up Chris. One of the things I edited out of my original post was that of all well known photographers, Winogrand was the closest to a monkey with a camera! Funny to see Coleman thought the same. I'll have to see if I can find that.

Thanks for the chuckle.
The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."

Later in the article, Coleman writes:

"How seriously can we take the droppings of a gluttonous voyeur who spent the last seven years of his life producing a third of a million negatives without bothering to look at any of them, much less analyze them critically?"

Coleman is one of my favorite writers on photography. I had the pleasure of meeting him the year I graduated from art school, and he signed my copy of "Critical Focus."
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Old 4 Days Ago   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."
I think Gerry might have been that way, but I'm not so sure Garry was as clueless as AD thinks he was.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #50
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It seems that generosity of spirit is rather hard to find among some photographers.

I understand peoples likes and dislikes but that`s all it is.

Never heard of this Coleman chap .
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Old 4 Days Ago   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Sounds odd to me. I've never had anyone ask me how many rolls of film I shoot, so they wouldn't have a clue whether I shoot one or a thousand rolls of film a year, or how often I print. But then I don't volunteer a lot of information. I just go about making images. How many rolls one shoots and how often one prints really doesn't tell you much about the ability of a photographer. The proof is in the print.
PTP,

"I was just minding my own business," but because I stand out in a crowd people engage with me and inquire. Your idea that I was putting myself out there is all wrong. People inquired by virtue of their curiosity, and partly because of their wondering of about my images.

I was just going about making images and then intrusions just happened. After a while I ran with the ball out of spite. I don't like when people try to control me and tell me what to do. They are not my farther.

I would expect anyone with any self esteem to respond in the same manner when people cross bounderies. You have to understand that the behavior of others I interpret as being intrusive and inappropriate.

Why do I have to explain myself to anyone?

The proof in the print I somewhat agree with, but then again many people shoot digitally and never print. Most people here on this forum do not own or maintain printers. How many have darkrooms? A degraded overly contrasty image transmitted over the internet with a resolution of 75 DPI to me is not a way to judge photography.

Anyways it seems I disrupted a process that others can't get their head around. To many it seems making negatives is not photography. It insults people and causes harsh criticism, hostility and attacks.

And I find myself defending myself and offering explainations when all I was doing was "minding my own business" and best interests. I can tell you this: if you stand out, expect to be a target of oppression.

My being an individual seems to be anti-social behavior behavior at this point.

Cal
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Old 4 Days Ago   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
It seems that generosity of spirit is rather hard to find among some photographers.

I understand peoples likes and dislikes but that`s all it is.

Never heard of this Coleman chap .

He has long been one of the leading critics of photography, going back to the 1970s. I don't always agree with his writings, but he is someone I respect because he has a great love of phootgraphy and has a deep knowledge of its history, its current practice, and its relationship to both the art world and to popular culture.
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The Monkey Irony
Old 4 Days Ago   #53
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The Monkey Irony

What an interesting coincidence.

GW consistently said what makes a photograph interesting was the "contest" between content and composition.

In an article titled "Monkeys Make The Problem More Difficult" Winogrand is quoted as saying:

Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form. And, you know, in terms of content, you can make a problem for yourself, I mean, make the contest difficult, let’s say, with certain subject matter that is inherently dramatic. An injury could be, a dwarf can be, a monkey—if you run into a monkey in some idiot context, automatically you’ve got a very real problem taking place in the photograph. I mean, how do you beat it?

Image Magazine, George Eastman House – Vol. 15, No. 2, July, 1972

Then a photography critic calls Winogrand a monkey.

Winograd was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship three times as well as a fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts. I guess his selection was rigged?

MOMA curator John Szarkowski had the opposite view from Coleman.

The number of photographers who know about Winogrand's work vastly exceeds those who could tell you who A.D. Colman's. However, obscurity and excellence are not mutually exclusive. Neither are fame and mediocrity.

That's the great thing about art. Subjectivity enables diversity. Otherwise, art would be uninteresting.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #54
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Interesting Cal. I thought of you when I saw this thread... your marathon developing sessions.
John,

It is all about process and developing skill and craft.

Kinda funny how the act of simply being a photographer, perhaps an odd one, leads to a big discussion about sociology. This never was my intent. LOL.

Clearly what I have done has disrupted the universe and deeply disturbed the masses. LOL.

Call me a terrorist because I created a high level of uncertainty that provoked people to become hostile and aggressive. LOL.

I find all this very powerful because while I still shoot film and only a few of these negatives have been printed, the power of this body of work to provoke and disturb society is really amusing. In a way it has become art. Basically and evidently I'm still a very good performance artist.

For those that do not know me like John, in my past I performed at The Joseph Papp Public Theater, Second Stage Theater on Broadway, The Puffin Room in SoHo, and at numerous colleges and universities throughout the northeast.

Anyways this is a funny thread. Ha-Ha...

Cal
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Old 4 Days Ago   #55
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How many of you have shot and processed as much film as possible without an outside lab?

How many of you maximized number of image capture using film when it was less costly and relatively inexpensive as an opportunity?

How many have maximized their photography by going extreme to actually see how serious or how good you really are? How many can quantify their results by evidence and proof.

For clarity I differ from Garry in that I more or less processed my film in a timely manner to avoid degrading my images.

I also tend to roam all of NYC and did not stake out an area like Garry who concentrated and restricted much of his shooting to blow 59th Street till about 34th Street near Macy's.

Also for editing and evaluation over this decade of analog shooting I also have been shooting digitally for about 5 years as overlap. For the first two years of Leica Monochrom ownership I only again concentrated on image capture with a total disregard to printing, but today I maintain and a 3880 and a 7800 and now seem to annoy people with my printing. LOL.

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Old 4 Days Ago   #56
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I think we are saying the same thing... kind of... your last sentence sums it up.
I have gotten better at doing it (editing), because I do it regularly, not because I store up unprocessed film to do it sometime in the future, if at all.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #57
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Quote:
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....It is all about process and developing skill and craft....
Fortunately for me, this is not true. Otherwise, I'd find another hobby—one that puts a premium on feeling and expression.

John
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Old 4 Days Ago   #58
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Fortunately for me, this is not true. Otherwise, I'd find another hobby—one that puts a premium on feeling and expression.

John
John,

Feeling and expression surely are part of my process.

Thanks for bringing it up. Also fun and challenge.

To a certain extent developing and making great negatives is not so different than printing. Another missed point. The same skills and technics are use.

Critical thinking in making great negatives surely is exercised in making great prints.

The most important thing about your post is that a lot has gotten unsaid.

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Old 4 Days Ago   #59
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In this year's Photoville I was lucky to secure one of the 600 tickets to attend a live interview featuring Peter Souza who was President Obama's Photographer for his two terms.

Peter estimates he took about 2 million photo's over eight years. He also mentioned that during those eight years he only took one sick day and only used three weeks vacation.

Peter used Canon 5D's and carried two rigged cameras with different lenses as not to have to change lenses. I am sure at this rate of shooting that he wore out a few bodies. The reason he choose Canon DSLR's was due to the fact that they offered the quietest shutters.

At the time of the interview it pre-dates the release of a book, a very-very thick big book that comprizes of images he took over those eight years. In the interview about a dozen images were shown and discussed, and the back stories were all interesting facets of history being recorded. I'm sure that this big body of work was a bear to edit and the amount of time it took was vast and extensive.

Also note that physically Peter expressed that he was exhausted. Pretty much he needs downtime to refresh. To me Peter Souza is a modern day Winogrand because of his exhaustive shooting.

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Old 4 Days Ago   #60
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I have gotten better at doing it (editing), because I do it regularly, not because I store up unprocessed film to do it sometime in the future, if at all.
Me too...I do a rough edit quickly (within days), then revisit it during a few months and edit more, than revisit again after years and edit more. I am always editing then... until something is just done. I'm all digital though these days.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #61
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Me too...I do a rough edit quickly (within days), then revisit it during a few months and edit more, than revisit again after years and edit more. I am always editing then... until something is just done. I'm all digital though these days.
John,

Now that a decade has lapsed, I'm looking at this decade of images as an archive. Many of the images I took are gone forever as a process of urban renewal, gentrification and the process of redevelopment. A sense of history gets played out in a way related to a time lapse.

The old Roselli Bookstore on 57th Street was torn down. That old abandoned diner on the Westside likewise. The iconic night shot I took now has a highrise in Long Island City blocking the Empire State Building.

These negatives I see as a record of history and certainly they are valuable. I look upon them as some of my most valuable treasure because they are such a large body of work that I estimate to be about a quarter of a million images on film.

2007-2017 marks just before the housing bubble popped in 2008, and recorded the Great Recession and the nine years after. In this regard time is the best editor.

Cal
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Old 4 Days Ago   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."

Later in the article, Coleman writes:

"How seriously can we take the droppings of a gluttonous voyeur who spent the last seven years of his life producing a third of a million negatives without bothering to look at any of them, much less analyze them critically?"
(...)
I think Coleman should be ashamed of these sentences.

And I wonder what in Winogrands person and/or his work makes quite a few people so aggressive?
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Old 4 Days Ago   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto View Post
The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."

Later in the article, Coleman writes:

"How seriously can we take the droppings of a gluttonous voyeur who spent the last seven years of his life producing a third of a million negatives without bothering to look at any of them, much less analyze them critically?"

Coleman is one of my favorite writers on photography. I had the pleasure of meeting him the year I graduated from art school, and he signed my copy of "Critical Focus."
Well it looks like A.D. was wrong. According to this article Winogrand made 432,000 negatives without looking at them. So much for wanting to see what things looked like photographed. They were loaded with garbage too according to those that saw them. That type of output borders on some kind of mental problem.

Coleman is quite a mind. He called b.s. on the story behind the Capa D-Day photographs. Basically sussed it all out and exposed the lies. I've enjoyed his writing.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #64
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I look upon them as some of my most valuable treasure because they are such a large body of work that I estimate to be about a quarter of a million images on film.
Wow. 7000 rolls of film. I do not have enough time left in my brief life to edit that many images, much less print them.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #65
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Years ago, when I was in Nicaragua for extended periods, I couldn't process my films. That got me into writing careful notes which might help me remember where and when I'd shot a roll. And those notes turned into articles for news papers - so not a bad process.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #66
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Wow. 7000 rolls of film. I do not have enough time left in my brief life to edit that many images, much less print them.
PTP,

If you think of Pete Souza's shooting of 2 million shots over the eight years of President Obama's Presidency and the perhaps 480 images that will be published soon in the book you realize that not all images were meant to publish, printed, exhibited or be seen.

When archiving it should be understood that the value of an image has to stand a test of time, and it is with this foresight that an "archive" is built to draw upon.

I agree with you that it is rather impractical to think I will print all these images. Having an archive is a valuable resource, and I think I have enough to keep me busy for my remaining lifetime.

Since I am a gentrifier who has been displaced repeatedly here in NYC, my creation of my archive means that even when I'm displaced totally out of the city due to retirement and fixed income that I can take a part of NYC with me wherever I am in the world.

My work/archive has a deeper meaning that many did not understand. I'm not so crazy after all. There is thoughful logic to my process, and it has been fun and exciting as well as a personal challenge.

Also add onto those 7K rolls of film (135 and 120) five years of shooting with a Leica Monochrom. With the digital images I did a rough cut and deleted many to save file space.

Cal
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Old 3 Days Ago   #67
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I'm wondering who owns the rights to Souza's photographs. Typically, the photographer retains rights. But would his be in the public domain?

John
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Old 3 Days Ago   #68
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I'm wondering who owns the rights to Souza's photographs. Typically, the photographer retains rights. But would his be in the public domain?

John
John,

Evidently Pete Souza owns the rights, otherwise he could not of used his archive to publish his book as being the Official Whitehouse Photographer for President Obama's two terms.

What I got out of Pete Souza's interview that impressed me the most was his work ethic. He is a very impressive photographer because he works so hard. We are all wimps in comparasion.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #69
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Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #70
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This is how I view most of what passes for street photography. Now I'm no photographer, and I think it is fun to work down a busy street and take random shots, almost in a frenzy. Works out that the frenzy part is more memorable than most of the pictures. The memorable pictures turn out to be the ones where I stop and chat with a person, then ask if I can take their picture and slowly get it.

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I've never understood the appeal of Winogrand. I think he was just "annointed" and no one ever questions it. Lots of photographers better than him. I think he appeals to a certain "type" of person, but that person is not me.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #71
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Originally Posted by johnwolf View Post
Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

John
Well put, John.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #72
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Well put, John.
Plus one.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwolf View Post
Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

John
GW's behavior during his final years in LA is well documented. He was ill. Well before his cancer diagnosis, his technical skills had degraded and many of those negatives are useless. Film that was developed suffered from errors and mishandling. GW was in decline.

It seems to me what happened at the end of GW's life has no relevance to his earlier work, i.e. before he was injured in Austin.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #74
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
GW's behavior during his final years in LA is well documented. He was ill. Well before his cancer diagnosis, his technical skills had degraded and many of those negatives are useless. Film that was developed suffered from errors and mishandling. GW was in decline.

It seems to me what happened at the end of GW's life has no relevance to his earlier work, i.e. before he was injured in Austin.
And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #75
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And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.
PTP,

I'm almost 60 years old. Pretty much I'm considering both my mortality and my immortality. At this age, more than half my life is over and one does not know how many decades are left. From my persepective I only have a few decades left, perhaps only two if I live the average life expectancy. And I have come to believe that a decade is not really a long time.

Meanwhile most people live paycheck to paycheck and have other worries.

I am pretty sure most people do not enjoy my positionality of approaching retirement age and the disturbing worries of living on fixed income and aging, and I'm pretty certain that most people cannot extend themselves outside their own lives to see someone else's situation with understanding.

I do see and admire some beauty in GW's frantic ending. It is sad and tragic, but I appreciate his struggle.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #76
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.
Elaborate or present some evidence??
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Old 3 Days Ago   #77
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I also recognize the compulsive, obsessive in myself that seems to be associated with photographers that exposes a fixation. I see this behavior in many photographers. I struggle to understand these motavations not only in myself but in other photographers and even extend this to other artists.

My guess is that this does not interest you and is not a concern.

I don't think Peter Souza had to take 2 million pictures to do his job. How many of his images will never be seen or be deleted? How many already have? How has the passage of time helped or hindered the editing process? How many shots that were just ordinary when taken will became iconic or important historically?

Was not Peter Souza's work ethic excessive and obsessive? Was it a rare and unique opportunity?

2 million shots to create a book with say 480 images. Would you call this spray and pray?

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Old 3 Days Ago   #78
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Elaborate or present some evidence??
Well, Calzone for one. He exposed 7000 rolls of film. He has processed them but they remain unedited.

I work differently. I shoot, process edit print, shoot, process, edit, print. It is an iterative process. Others may work differently.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #79
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Well, Calzone for one. He exposed 7000 rolls of film. He has processed them but they remain unedited.

I work differently. I shoot, process edit print, shoot, process, edit, print. It is an iterative process. Others may work differently.
PTP,

Another is Peter Souza who shot extensively for eight years and in the ninth year edited a book that at this time might not have been released yet.

The moral of the story here is that some bodies of work evolve over different timelines.

Vivian Mayer is another example. Mucho film exposed and never developed. I think her work is kinda historical and is also street photography.

I have another example of when I did a GW. In this case I shot a roll of color film. This was unusual for me because other than for my gal's blog I am exclusively a B&W only shooter. So after September 11th 2001 I went to the prominade in Brooklyn Heights and photographed the flowers and candles set up as memorials for the victums and families.

This single roll of film stayed in my fridge for many years. In a way I was avoiding the pain, the reminder, and the memories; but one day I dropped off the film at Duggal and explained the many years in the delay in processing. I knew the images would be degraded; I new the colors would display a mired shift; but I also knew these images were important.

I realized that these images would hurt and haunt me, and this was the justification for the delayed processing. Sadly one of the victums I went to college with. Glen was a first responder working as a photographer for the NYPD. I would learn many years later after September 11th 2001 that Glen was killed that day.

More recently I learned a friend named Larry from high school that his younger brother, Perry, was in the NYPD and died later of September 11th related Cancer.

Many might say that these photo's resemble the inferior IQ of say a Polaroid's saturated colors yet compressed dynamic range, but they have a very odd and strange beauty when a context loans an understanding of how these poor images were made. Not my best work by any means.

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Sometimes the reason for delaying processing is logistics. When I was processing film in the bathroom, I had to clear stuff out of the way,set up the water bath for keeping the chemicals at temp, etc. It was such a PITA that I waited until I had several rolls-ie a 5 roll Paterson and a 3 roll also.
Now that I have a darkroom I process more often and can now contact print the stuff I've been shooting the last few years.
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