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Old 01-04-2018   #41
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Originally Posted by robert blu View Post
Soon or later it will change, the new paradigm will be "less is more, simplicity is our keyword" buy our simple product with an high image quality.
I'm not holding my breath. Stand alone cameras are increasing marketed to and bought by enthusiasts who demand the customization offered by menu options. Most people are perfectly happy with the image quality of their iPhones. The whole segment of non-menu point and shoot digital cameras has disappeared.
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Old 01-04-2018   #42
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Congratulations Fuji because based on popularity the camera is a winner but I think you have given it a lot of DSLR style complication that it really didn't need.
I can understand this if you are comparing it to a Leica, but really... I use the shutter speed dial, the aperture ring, and go into the menu to format. If your brain can ignore the complication in many of these cameras, they really are simple.
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Old 01-04-2018   #43
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Why isn't there a digital camera like the old film P&S's with a brilliant to excellent fixed lens and a straight forward set of controls and no menu maze?
Because they are more complicated computers compared to film P&S cameras.
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Old 01-04-2018   #44
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I can understand this if you are comparing it to a Leica, but really... I use the shutter speed dial, the aperture ring, and go into the menu to format.
No need to go into the menu. Press and hold the delete button for 3 seconds then press the rear command dial.

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Old 01-04-2018   #45
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You are right that too many DSLR-like options enlarges the table of offerings and makes more obscure the gold that’s necessary, increasing the chance that the new user may never find them, or never get comfortable and confident to actually use the camera.

The simplicity of the original X100 is, however, an illusion. It’s complicated. I don’t think I would have got to like it and succeed with it if it weren’t for the collective wisdom here on RFF, discussing the optimal set-up. My only previous digital in 2011 was the Nikon Coolpix 4500. I think the DSLR users were my teachers.

For simplicity I had the Olympus Mju 2 which I gave my wife. Would we have all the kids photos from the 1990s if that had been the X100 instead? Not so sure.

Simplicity is the M2, or the M7.

The Hasselblad automatically prevents errors, but it is a slap on the wrist camera - take out the dark slide if you want to press the shutter; put it back in if you want to change backs; you now lose a frame because you didn’t have the back and the body in sync.

The best interface, an enabling interface, was the Konica Hexar AF. Choose f2 on the aperture dial and in bright sun ‘16’ appears in the LCD and you get the shot. The 16 is shorthand for “go ahead and take the shot but just to let you know we stopped down to f16 as this is ISO 400 and the maximum shutter speed is 1/250s. Sorry about the bokeh. Have a nice day.” It is so clever the Hexar. There are no slaps or stern warnings or interruptions. There’s so little you need to know and the camera covers for your blunders. Those Konica engineers were truly thoughtful and insightful about the use of the camera.
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Old 01-04-2018   #46
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Originally Posted by lbstollar View Post
I'm a new user of the X100f. I found that dealing with some of the complexity up front by reading the manual, assigning a couple of function buttons, and locking in a few settings has made the camera very simple to operate. Very impressed with the results so far.
Same here. I bought a X100 this past Spring and upgraded to the X100T in late summer. Download the PDF user manual, so much easier to find information than the tree killing paper version.

It is a very easy camera to use and the compact size makes it the perfect daily carry camera for me personally.
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Old 01-04-2018   #47
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And with the Instamatic, you didn't have to set anything. Get over it. Quality always requires some effort. Spend a half an hour going though your menu settings and setting up your camera when you first get it, and the forget about the options. Honestly, all the handwringing is unbelievable.
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Old 01-04-2018   #48
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Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Don't get me wrong here ... I still think the Fuji is a fantastic camera but I think they have gone overboard with controls and setting options.
You are not alone. The increase in features and options have not been matched by investmenting in a more intuitive user interface. I also think marketing people insist on more is better. I wonder what percentage of customers who would consider a X100F disagree?

Some of the complexity (mainly optimizing the AF for different situations) is a direct response to complaints about AF performance. Some off the complexity involves FUJIFILMs philosophy highlighting FUJIFILM film simulations. Many of the convenience features assume people will only use in-camera JPEGs. This is likely to be a valid assumption.

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And while it's easy to say it can just be set to basic requirements and used effectively as such my friend was confronted by the available choices and was frantically scanning the manual ... which I have to say wasn't helping her confusion and was really causing her to overthink the situation
Sorry, that that's not 100% on FUJIFILM. You have to invest some time to learn a new user environment. If she had any new digital camera in the same price range as the X100F that did not use the Canon menus system and operation philosophy, would she have had a very different experience? Perhaps. As myself and other pointed out the EVF/OVF, relatively small an closely space controls increase the challenge.

Would she have spent $6K on a Leica M-D body to avoid figuring out how to use a new menu system and operational environment?

The FUJIFILM manuals are mediocre. Sections become obsolete after significant firmware updates. Updates always include access to manual update PDFs. Many people aren't aware of this. However the FUJIFILM on-line AF guide linked above is a step in the right direction.
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Old 01-04-2018   #49
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That's the state of affairs with the new digital cameras; they keep loading them
down with features that I and most people don't need or use (I mean do we really
use every feature in a DC). Look, I just purchased a Canon 5D; why, because it a
full frame, it does have less features, and it's a great build little camera. I still
use my Fuji xpro1 which I love but I just tone down the features I don't use. I
guess what I'm saying is that we have to learn to use these new wonder cameras.
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Old 01-04-2018   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
And with the Instamatic, you didn't have to set anything. Get over it. Quality always requires some effort. Spend a half an hour going though you menu settings and setting up your camera when you first get it, and the forget about the options. Honestly, all the handwringing is unbelievable.
Not only with Instamatic. I have Lumix dP&S, don't need to set anything.
My wife FujiFilm dP&S is the same. Full auto, only shutter button release is in use.

Problems might occurs in two cases.
Case one. The "Canon Digital Rebel" case. In this case full auto didn't worked for my wife and me. Canon didn't implemented AF right in full auto mode, in our digital Rebel it throws focus points somewhere. Film Rebel didn't have this problem and was in use only in full auto by us.

If X100 series doesn't have this kind of firmware in auto mode problems, then it shouldn't be a problem to set it all in full auto and use it.

Then case two comes. David Hughes's case. Then camera is taken from pocket (bad practice ) and somehow menus are activated or it is already switched somewhere. But it is the case in question. If camera is tossed into and from the pocket while it is still on, I wouldn't blame on camera.
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Old 01-04-2018   #51
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Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
There x100f is pretty much singular. It’s going to have a learning curve.
It’s just not like any other camera out there. Maybe the xpro2 is similar also having the ovf/evf hybrid.
One can set the camera up for very basic operation.
I bet once your friend becomes familiar with setting it up, it’s going to seem much less complex.

It’s like a Windows user shifting to Mac.
Seems weird at first and then like old hat.
The Fuji ovf/evf cameras are the same sort of adjustment.
Agree, just take an hour to set it up the way you like and never look at the menus again
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Old 01-04-2018   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
No need to go into the menu. Press and hold the delete button for 3 seconds then press the rear command dial.

Shawn
This is true as well, but I'm old school Fuji. Just muscle memory now to do it the old way.
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Old 01-04-2018   #53
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post

Then case two comes. David Hughes's case. Then camera is taken from pocket (bad practice ) and somehow menus are activated or it is already switched somewhere. But it is the case in question. If camera is tossed into and from the pocket while it is still on, I wouldn't blame on camera.
No, but the camera also has ways of dealing with that. Once you get it setup the way you like save the settings into one of the Custom settings (say C1) memories. If you, or your pocket, screws up the settings you just switch to C1 and it is all back the way it was.

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Old 01-04-2018   #54
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Agree, just take an hour to set it up the way you like and never look at the menus again
Yes, but if it's not your camera you might loose a friend........

I'm pretty sure Keith has spent a bit of time with his digital cameras, but my guess is that he doesn't have any Fuji X series on his shelves.

Rather like going from Mac to Windows to Linux, just takes some time, something more precious than film.

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Old 01-04-2018   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Why isn't there a digital camera like the old film P&S's with a brilliant to excellent fixed lens and a straight forward set of controls and no menu maze?
There is such a camera, the Leica M digital series. I have an X-Pro2 (and two previous models), a Nikon D750 and an M9. Unless I need a special feature of the Fuji or Nikon, I shoot the M9. I mistakenly grabbed the Fuji for a Christmas party last month. I was never so frustrated in my life.
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Old 01-04-2018   #56
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One would think that as for settings such as ISO, WB, etc, there would be a slide switch, with a strong enough detent, that would lock your settings until you decide to change them.
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Old 01-04-2018   #57
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There is such a camera, the Leica M digital series. I have an X-Pro2 (and two previous models), a Nikon D750 and an M9. Unless I need a special feature of the Fuji or Nikon, I shoot the M9. I mistakenly grabbed the Fuji for a Christmas party last month. I was never so frustrated in my life.
If a Fuji menu left you the most frustrated you have ever been in your life, you must have lived a very charmed life. Seriously, what menu settings did you have to change for a Christmas party?
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Old 01-04-2018   #58
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Thanks for all the input and opinions, suggestions etc ... I've actually sent my friend a link to this thread. Hopefully you/we aren't confusing her too much.

Maybe she could consider joining RFF because I think these types of threads are quite valuable when you jump to a different digital platform.
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Old 01-04-2018   #59
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Yes, but if it's not your camera you might loose a friend........

I'm pretty sure Keith has spent a bit of time with his digital cameras, but my guess is that he doesn't have any Fuji X series on his shelves.

Rather like going from Mac to Windows to Linux, just takes some time, something more precious than film.

B2 (;->


That's a good point and you're right. When I got my used D4 a year or so ago being my third Nikon DSLR I barely needed to look at the manual to be able to set it up the way I wanted but when I picked this X100F up confusion set in immediately!

As for my Sigmas ... well they just don't give you many choices.
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Old 01-04-2018   #60
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
If a Fuji menu left you the most frustrated you have ever been in your life, you must have lived a very charmed life. Seriously, what menu settings did you have to change for a Christmas party?
I have lived a long and very charmed life -. The X-Pro2 is something else. May go back to my X-E2. For example there's the OVP, EVF, ERF, Bright light simulation and worse of all the VF zoom for exact focusing. So every time I'd bring the camera up to my eye the VF changed. Worse the EVF would automatically zoom to allow very exact focusing, just what you need with an AF lens. Plus the AF with the 18~55 2.8 lens was very slow. I missed so many shots I was ready to throw it the garbage. Makes a great landscape camera but not what I bought a RF for. Should have took my $50 book with me.

I've tried making cheat sheets but they end up being 4 or 5 8x11 sheets of paper. Why do I need 9 function buttons? I can remember what one or two does but 9??? And with 9 buttons I can't remember what 2 I picked to do what I want them to do.
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Old 01-04-2018   #61
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Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
I have lived a long and very charmed life -. The X-Pro2 is something else. May go back to my X-E2. For example there's the OVP, EVF, ERF, Bright light simulation and worse of all the VF zoom for exact focusing. So every time I'd bring the camera up to my eye the VF changed. Worse the EVF would automatically zoom to allow very exact focusing, just what you need with an AF lens. Plus the AF with the 18~55 2.8 lens was very slow. I missed so many shots I was ready to throw it the garbage. Makes a great landscape camera but not what I bought a RF for. Should have took my $50 book with me.

I've tried making cheat sheets but they end up being 4 or 5 8x11 sheets of paper. Why do I need 9 function buttons? I can remember what one or two does but 9??? And with 9 buttons I can't remember what 2 I picked to do what I want them to do.
Surprised you are upset by the EVF,OVF and ERF. Those are the reasons to buy the XP2. Pick the one you like, you do not need to use them all. Stick with one for awhile and then after you get comfortable with the camera explore the other options. Having them can be very handy for specific situations and I use them all regularly.

To turn off the auto zoom when using the OVF

menu-> AF/MF -> Focus Check OFF.

I find a much better way to check focus using the optical VF is using the ERF mode. You change what the little window displays by pressing the rear command dial. It can show the entire view (to check framing) or it can show a zoomed in view of the focus point.

You might not need 9 function buttons, but I use them all. If you don't need 9 different functions set multiple buttons to the same function or turn the buttons off.

Surprised you felt like the 18-55 focuses slowly. Put it in AF-S, single point focus mode (I uses the down button to change focus modes) and take it out of economy mode if you have it. Menu->Setup (Wrench)->Power Management->Performance-> Normal.

XP2 focuses faster than the XE2, I have both.

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Old 01-04-2018   #62
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I blame the forums And internet reviewers. Seems like every camera review is marked by what the next wizbang feature the camera you have doesn’t have. Almost all are useful but they certainly add up.

I now have an X100F and love it. There wasn’t a learning curve for me but I’ve shot Fuji almost exclusively since 2012 and the XP1.

I would also note the ‘audience’ of the X100 series. I’ve always heard it called the “photographer’s point and shoot” or compact what have you.
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Old 01-04-2018   #63
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That's why I love the Leica X1 and X2. Compact fixed lens cameras with not much complexity. Two dials to operate shutter speed and aperture. An ISO button, and a shutter release. IQ is great, but I've never tried a Fugi.
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Old 01-04-2018   #64
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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Pick the one you like (OVF,EVF), you do not need to use them all.
To turn off the auto zoom when using the OVF menu-> AF/MF -> Focus Check OFF.
Shawn
My point about the different Viewfinders is that my finger must touch the lever and it changes when I don't want it to. Push the lever left, push it right, push the button. It would be better to have the different choices in the menu selection.

I really appreciate your other advice though. I didn't know you could turn the zoom feature off. I'll also try the single focus spot too.
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Old 01-04-2018   #65
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since x100 1st version went out, I really want to buy it

try the 1st up to the 4th version ..

after use on street > 30 minutes.. all 4 version give me a very sore pain in my right hand.. esp palmar and thumb area...

the fuji guys recommend me to use the grip.. I use it.. quite expensive grip... after 30 minutes.. the pain is back..

I love the fuji.. i just cant stand the pain it gave me to my right hand... funnily .. I can bring and shoot.. ricoh gr1v, leica M any kind, ikon, even 500cm with only my right hand on street.. for 3-4 hours straight.. and no pain what so ever to the right hand

i give up on the x100 ergonomic

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Old 01-05-2018   #66
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Originally Posted by music_healing View Post
since x100 1st version went out, I really want to buy it

try the 1st up to the 4th version ..

after use on street > 30 minutes.. all 4 version give me a very sore pain in my right hand.. esp palmar and thumb area...

the fuji guys recommend me to use the grip.. I use it.. quite expensive grip... after 30 minutes.. the pain is back..

I love the fuji.. i just cant stand the pain it gave me to my right hand... funnily .. I can bring and shoot.. ricoh gr1v, leica M any kind, ikon, even 500cm with only my right hand on street.. for 3-4 hours straight.. and no pain what so ever to the right hand

i give up on the x100 ergonomic

Sincerely
William
That sounds like an unfortunate isolated issue with your hand sadly.
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Old 01-05-2018   #67
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My point about the different Viewfinders is that my finger must touch the lever and it changes when I don't want it to. Push the lever left, push it right, push the button. It would be better to have the different choices in the menu selection.
I think once you get used to it you will feel differently. I tend to use the OVF mostly. But if I have a shot where I want to get exact framing I just flick the lever and the EVF is right there. Ditto wanting to check exposure or shooting macro or with a long lens. To go back to the EVF is just another flick. Or if I am shooting an adapted lens I can jump to the ERF and keep the OVF while still manually focusing. I would hate having these function in a menu as it would seriously slow access down. Same reason I like this 9 functions buttons, my need to go into the menus is very low. Esp. with the customizable Q menu and the ability to make my own collection of menu items.

If you have other questions on the XP2 just ask. It is pretty flexible and when you master it is one heck of a camera.

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Old 01-06-2018   #68
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That's a good point and you're right. When I got my used D4 a year or so ago being my third Nikon DSLR I barely needed to look at the manual to be able to set it up the way I wanted but when I picked this X100F up confusion set in immediately!
In all fairness, your first Nikon digital probably felt the same way...
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Old 01-06-2018   #69
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...but when I picked this X100F up confusion set in immediately!
I started using assembly language mini-computers for work in 1973. Between 1973 and 1985 I had to learn four different assembly language mini-computer environments to stay employed. I change jobs and learned DEC VAX. For home I transitioned from Apple IIE to Mac 0S 9. Then in ~ 1993-94 I my work environment transitioned to UNIX workstations.

I was comfortable adapting to new computer platforms. I actually enjoyed the process.

This changed in 1995 my workplace forced everyone to adopt Windows. It was truly use Windows or quit.

"confusion set in immediately! "

This is not a slam on Windows in the mid-1990s.

It is an example of how difficult adapting to a new computing environment can be. I was trying to force Windows to work as UNIX or Mac OS 9 worked. I slowly realized this was a goal only Sisyphus could endure. I was creating my problems more than Windows was. So, in order to keep my job I became assimilated. I used Windows as Microsoft wanted me to use it.

Cameras are no different. There is pain when you change systems. The issue is – are the benefits of a new system worth the effort?
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Old 03-28-2018   #70
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sometimes you gotta chew bubblegum and sometimes you gotta walk.
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Old 03-28-2018   #71
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I choose to chew the Fujifilm bubblegum...
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Old 03-28-2018   #72
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........

This is not a slam on Windows in the mid-1990s.

..................
There is no valor in the easy shot!

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Old 03-28-2018   #73
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I can empathize. Upon getting an XPro2 last month I was suddenly a newbie. Just downright confusing. Lots of buttons, lots of options, in what seems to be a different language. Even after going through the book and getting the camera “simplified” it took me several days to even be able to set the image proportions without looking at the book again. Shooting jpg on one card and raw on the other for simplifying my archiving, but can I see the jpg crops on the screen when I review? Sometimes. Can I remember how to switch between cards in play mode? Not yet. Do I have any idea why the camera sometimes plays from card one and sometimes from card two? No fecking clue. Having handled all kinds of cameras over the years when teaching, and being able to get a handle on any of them pretty quickly, I find this to have the least intuitive interface beyond the basic dials of any camera I’ve ever held.
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Old 03-28-2018   #74
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I should ask Karen who owns the camera to post some pics and make her own comment here. She likes the camera a lot I think ... and has joined RFF,
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Old 03-28-2018   #75
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I've speculated that digital camera interfaces (and VCRs!) are easier to run if you have video game experience... ? I don't, so cannot confirm. But I feel uneasy with digital interfaces, just not intuitive. If the digital interface replicated the feel and look of analog controls I think I'd be fine.

And yet I'm a digital early adopter, programming in Fortran and editing early Mac system files in hexadecimal. Back in the earlier digicam days I had a Canon G3 for documenting at work, no problem.

Being a Pentax guy I chose a Pentax dSLR and hit a wall. I held the camera and studied the manual, confused. Every month or two I'd work on it again and put it aside. A year went by and I got a Leica M8. This is more like it! I got a second one, and about this time I managed to get the Pentax working too, just the basics.

So I can sure sympathize with having trouble grasping a digital interface, with some equipment being worse than others. The navigation and entertainment controls on my new car? Forget it!
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Old 03-28-2018   #76
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What's so complicated on today's DSLRs (I haven't really used a digital camera for a decade now)? Do they not take a picture at the press of the shutter button after you've taken them out of the box?

They may not take the pic the way you want it to.
e.g the default out of the box AF mode may be one that decides to focus on whatever is closest to the camera, when u just want single spot AF.
The camera may focus continuously when you push the shutter button, instead of locking focus so you can recompose.

And that's just dealing with the AF!
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Old 03-28-2018   #77
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Why isn't there a digital camera like the old film P&S's with a brilliant to excellent fixed lens and a straight forward set of controls and no menu maze?

Regards, David.
Leica makes a bunch of them, including the Q
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Old 03-29-2018   #78
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I should ask Karen who owns the camera to post some pics and make her own comment here. She likes the camera a lot I think ... and has joined RFF,
and, in the end, that is all that matters. Glad she likes it.
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Old 03-29-2018   #79
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There is no valor in the easy shot!

B2 (;->
True, but the end result is the same. The bullet does damage.

Still, my intent was not to trash-talk an ancient version of Windows. It was to make the point that with copping change is unavoidable. Approaching a new system of any kind with flexibility lessens the pain.
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Old 03-29-2018   #80
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
If I am not mistaken, if you hold the Menu OK button down for two seconds, a padlock will appear and the buttons will remain locked. Press the Menu OK button down for two seconds to unlock the buttons.
Do you know if this holds for the X100t as well? Would this lock everything, including the shutter button?
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