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View Poll Results: Which one?
M4 29 54.72%
M4-P 24 45.28%
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Old 07-16-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by simonbakhshnia View Post
Thanks for the info, much appreciated! I have made my mind up, will be getting an M4!
Good call!

This one seems nice..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-M4-RA...53.m1438.l2649
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Old 07-16-2019   #42
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I like your sense of humor, Huss!
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Old 07-16-2019   #43
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Lol thats a beauty
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Old 07-16-2019   #44
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Lol thats a beauty

Enjoy your M4!
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Old 07-16-2019   #45
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The teeny tiny red dot on the M4-P is clearly for amateurs...
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Old 07-16-2019   #46
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Well, I have the three incarnations of the M4 (M4, M4-2 and M4-P) and I won't describe them as cheap, light, low quality or any other way that's not good quality tools. Granted, they may have a different feel, but all in all, the only objective difference (to me) is that the M4 is slightly heavier than the other two.

Let me add that at this point the notion that the M4-2 early batch is defective sounds suspicious to me. However many cameras there were, I'm sure they were repaired ever since they were issued in 1984 by either their first or any subsequent owner, so I am sure there are no defective M4-2s out there. Same must be with the famous curse of the serial # below 134xxxx in the M5 bodies (supposedly defective, although I don't know how).

If you already made up your mind and decided to go for an M4... good luck shopping! I'd go for whatever crosses my path at a good price and in good condition: M4-2, M4-P or M4. In any case, have fun and take care!
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Old 07-17-2019   #47
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Well, I have the three incarnations of the M4 (M4, M4-2 and M4-P) and I won't describe them as cheap, light, low quality or any other way that's not good quality tools. Granted, they may have a different feel, but all in all, the only objective difference (to me) is that the M4 is slightly heavier than the other two.

Let me add that at this point the notion that the M4-2 early batch is defective sounds suspicious to me. However many cameras there were, I'm sure they were repaired ever since they were issued in 1984 by either their first or any subsequent owner, so I am sure there are no defective M4-2s out there. Same must be with the famous curse of the serial # below 134xxxx in the M5 bodies (supposedly defective, although I don't know how).

If you already made up your mind and decided to go for an M4... good luck shopping! I'd go for whatever crosses my path at a good price and in good
condition: M4-2, M4-P or M4. In any case, have fun and take care!
At this point I want a M4’s but I am definitely open if I find a amazing condition M4 P.
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Old 07-17-2019   #48
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Enjoy your M4!
Thx I sure will!
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Old 07-17-2019   #49
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Originally Posted by simonbakhshnia View Post
How often are CLA's required? Do you feel when it is needed? And how long does it take to get done?

Hi,

This is a very easy question to ask but a very difficult one to answer.

The problem is that, by the time you notice something is odd, a lot of other things will also need a little TLC. And if you are unlucky the other things could be well advanced too. You will have noticed by now that a lot of people commenting on cameras say how transformed they were after a check up and so on. That's because what usually happens is that the entire camera is stripped down cleaned and thoroughly checked before being re-assembled with new lubrication and so on and everything adjusted and tested again. And that's not cheap...

One answer is to send it in to be checked (say) every couple of years like Nikon recommended for one of my cameras. Another answer is to use it all the time and hope you notice when things start to change. There's also a lot you can do to keep it in good working order but it involves reading the instruction book and doing what it says. Now, look on ebay, and count the number of cameras sold with the instruction books...

I'd also suggest buying from a dealer who gives a proper guarantee but that's dearer and few think a proper guarantee is a year. (Recently I saw a IIIf for sale recently in a dealer's shop window with a guarantee for just two weeks, they wanted 800 UK pounds for it. And sitting in sunlight behind glass in the summer is not how I would store it.)

I'm sorry I can't say more. It really is a gamble buying an old camera and very few film cameras are under 15 to 20 years old these days.

Regards, David
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Old 07-17-2019   #50
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Weight a minute ...


Some years ago, out of curiosity, I weighted some gear when I had nothing to do.


My surprise ...

in variety of weights in those Leica M of different types and period.


Same process for all, no strap, no film inside, so as "nude" as can be, but not really "as to use" ( no film ! )



M4-2 the lightest 523g
some M4 : 538g, 541g, 547g, 555g (good number here), two 557g !
some M4-P : 537g, 543g, 550g


two M2 : 560g, 571g


the heaviest is MP x0.85 (to be fair ...with batteries ) at 600g

while the other MP x0.72 is a bit lighter at 595g
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Old 07-17-2019   #51
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I had my M6 overhauled by Sherry over a decade ago. I had the MP finder upgrade performed and had the 75mm frames stripped out.

Know there is a difference between a CLA and an overhaul, where in an overhaul parts are replaced and the camera is stripped down more fully.

IMHO the term CLA is overused and misused.

One thing I can do to tell if a camera needs service is test the one second shutter speed. For me I can count to seven out loud speaking clearly and as fast as I can.

Cameras can still work/function, but the one second shutter speed is seldom used, as well as the other slower speeds. The slow speeds is where the shutter can stick.

Also when running the one second shutter speed there is a run on that persists after the shutter closes. On fresh cameras, new Leicas, and on Leica M's that are continually used, this run on is very long, perhaps half a second or more. This basically tells me the condition of the lubricants.

This tells me if the camera has been regularly used or if it has been a shelf queen. BTW Leicas love to be used. Like a mechanical watch they are best used.

I have a Rolex that I just had overhauled recently this year. I bought it new in 2003, and it ran non stop for 16 years. Worse thing is to go unused. Another camera that also has to be used to maintain is a Rollieflex.

The best thing you can do is use your Leica regularly.

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Old 07-17-2019   #52
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M4 story: At Adorama I found a clean M4 that needed an "overhaul." The shutter on one second at times got stuck, but never fully jammed.

Upon close inspection it had the original "L" seal on the lens mount flange, so basically this was an original M4 that had never been serviced ever, and for $499.00 in clean condition the cost of an overhaul would make this a very remarkable M4.

I sent the M4 off to Sherry. Upon its return Sherry made a note on my receipt that the camera came to her with the original "L" seal.

I ended up selling this camera to a my friend Andre who still owns this special camera.

Slightly off-topic but my friend at Adorama showed me a M3-DS. When I dry fired the camera I noted that it was kinda stiff and loud for an old M3.

"You don't understand," he said, and he showed me the brand new "L" seal on the lens flange, "It was just serviced by Leica, that is brand new "L" seal and they even resilvered the prism."

So pretty much this was like a brand new M3-DS as it gets. $1.3K was the price. My friend Brian now owns this special M3-DS.

In a ways I miss these cameras because it is unlikely I will find such prime examples again. They were deals of a lifetime, but I have many other cameras.

I bought these cameras at a time when film cameras were being dumped. You could buy Nikon F3's for $75.00.

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Old 07-17-2019   #53
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Quote:
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..

(Recently I saw a IIIf for sale recently in a dealer's shop window with a guarantee for just two weeks, they wanted 800 UK pounds for it. And sitting in sunlight behind glass in the summer is not how I would store it.)
To be fair, sitting in sunlight in summer in England lasts about one day.
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Old 07-17-2019   #54
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You'll be happy with either one. I voted for the M4-P since that is what I have, but had looked at an M4 previous to that, and would have bought it if the owner had come down a bit in price. The frameline selection of the M4-P also appealed to me, as I have no qualms with seeing two frames in one view. It helps me to get my horizons straight.


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Old 07-17-2019   #55
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I voted M4-P after having sold mine (owned 9 yrs) and an M4-2 (owned 6 yrs) to buy a black-paint M4 in 2016. The M4 is nice and black-paint looks nicer than black-chrome but the M4-P/M4-2 are simply the sturdier and more versatile cameras and can be used with rapidwinders/motors and also have a hot-shoe.


However, the 28mm frame-line of the M4-P is more a gimmick than useful since it almost has the same size as the whole VF itself and is difficult to see already without wearing glasses. Anything 28/21 wide on a Leica is easier to use with an external VF.
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Old 07-17-2019   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
M4 story: At Adorama I found a clean M4 that needed an "overhaul." The shutter on one second at times got stuck, but never fully jammed.

Upon close inspection it had the original "L" seal on the lens mount flange, so basically this was an original M4 that had never been serviced ever, and for $499.00 in clean condition the cost of an overhaul would make this a very remarkable M4.

I sent the M4 off to Sherry. Upon its return Sherry made a note on my receipt that the camera came to her with the original "L" seal.

I ended up selling this camera to a my friend Andre who still owns this special camera.

Slightly off-topic but my friend at Adorama showed me a M3-DS. When I dry fired the camera I noted that it was kinda stiff and loud for an old M3.

"You don't understand," he said, and he showed me the brand new "L" seal on the lens flange, "It was just serviced by Leica, that is brand new "L" seal and they even resilvered the prism."

So pretty much this was like a brand new M3-DS as it gets. $1.3K was the price. My friend Brian now owns this special M3-DS.

In a ways I miss these cameras because it is unlikely I will find such prime examples again. They were deals of a lifetime, but I have many other cameras.

I bought these cameras at a time when film cameras were being dumped. You could buy Nikon F3's for $75.00.

Cal
This story made me walk over to the room I keep my M3 in and take it out of its box and lay a huge kiss on it.
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Old 07-17-2019   #57
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To be fair, sitting in sunlight in summer in England lasts about one day.

I wish it was, it hit 31°C a couple of weeks ago and now is only 26°C outside. Friends in France have been trying to cope with 46°C...


Regards, David
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Old 07-17-2019   #58
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I voted M4-P after having sold mine (owned 9 yrs) and an M4-2 (owned 6 yrs) to buy a black-paint M4 in 2016. The M4 is nice and black-paint looks nicer than black-chrome but the M4-P/M4-2 are simply the sturdier and more versatile cameras and can be used with rapidwinders/motors and also have a hot-shoe.


However, the 28mm frame-line of the M4-P is more a gimmick than useful since it almost has the same size as the whole VF itself and is difficult to see already without wearing glasses. Anything 28/21 wide on a Leica is easier to use with an external VF.
I have a MD-2 which is a M4-P without the rangefinder. I use this for ultrawides with an external VF'er. I also love the driveshaft that allows me to use a TA Rapidwinder.

I inquired with Sherry to have a M4 or M3 modified with the driveshaft so I could use a Rapidwinder, but Sherry refused. Evidently the brass gears for the film transport is what gives the perceived smoothness in the earlier cameras.

The M4-P and my M6 have steel gears.

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Old 07-17-2019   #59
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https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...ad.php?t=82826

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/....php?p=2768353
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Old 07-17-2019   #60
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#10. https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...ad.php?t=89129
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Old 07-17-2019   #61
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I wish it was, it hit 31°C a couple of weeks ago and now is only 26°C outside. Friends in France have been trying to cope with 46°C...


Regards, David
Wow things have certainly changed since I lived there.
On the upside, the food is much better than from when I was a wee laddie.
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Old 07-17-2019   #62
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Wow things have certainly changed since I lived there.
On the upside, the food is much better than from when I was a wee laddie.
Could hardly be worse...
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Old 07-17-2019   #63
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Could hardly be worse...

They are working on it...


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Old 07-17-2019   #64
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Quote:
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... I inquired with Sherry to have a M4 or M3 modified with the driveshaft so I could use a Rapidwinder, but Sherry refused. Evidently the brass gears for the film transport is what gives the perceived smoothness in the earlier cameras.

The M4-P and my M6 have steel gears. ...
I had Don Goldberg ("DAG") modify an M3 this way or me several years ago. He replaced some of the brass gears to make it work. Wish I still had it!

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Old 07-17-2019   #65
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Never owned an M4 till now. I've had a CL, M2, M6, M6 TTL and a M6 TTL Millennium and so far the M4 beats all of them. It handles like a M6 but the finder is ever so close to the M2 making it just about the perfect Leica for me. I bought it from a reputable dealer and it arrived in almost pristine condition but someone with just enough knowledge decided to remove the top plate and affect a "repair". They managed to almost remove the original wax seal leaving debris behind, misalign the rangefinder, bend the X sync switch and never did do anything with the sticky shutter speeds but did manage to bugger up a few screw heads here and there. After having it CLA'ed, I couldn't be happier. It's the old warning of condition is not everything.
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Old 07-17-2019   #66
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Never owned an M4 till now. I've had a CL, M2, M6, M6 TTL and a M6 TTL Millennium and so far the M4 beats all of them. It handles like a M6 but the finder is ever so close to the M2 making it just about the perfect Leica for me. I bought it from a reputable dealer and it arrived in almost pristine condition but someone with just enough knowledge decided to remove the top plate and affect a "repair". They managed to almost remove the original wax seal leaving debris behind, misalign the rangefinder, bend the X sync switch and never did do anything with the sticky shutter speeds but did manage to bugger up a few screw heads here and there. After having it CLA'ed, I couldn't be happier. It's the old warning of condition is not everything.
Yeah, I have heard amazing things about it!
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Old 07-17-2019   #67
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One more question for you all, I will purchase a light meter for the camera. My options is the Leica MR Meter or the Voigtlander VC II. Have any of you had experience with either of these or recommend another one?
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Old 07-18-2019   #68
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I have both and recommend the VC II over the MR meter every time. Even more I would recommend a light-meter app for a smartphone (if you have one). That`s what I use exclusively for the last couple of years.



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One more question for you all, I will purchase a light meter for the camera. My options is the Leica MR Meter or the Voigtlander VC II. Have any of you had experience with either of these or recommend another one?
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Old 07-18-2019   #69
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I have both and recommend the VC II over the MR meter every time. Even more I would recommend a light-meter app for a smartphone (if you have one). That`s what I use exclusively for the last couple of years.
What is your reasoning for using an app? Personally, I feel that it would add extra hassle.
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Old 07-18-2019   #70
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I have a VCII and an MR (which underexposes). The VCII is accurate, small and stylish. But - you have to take your eye of the subject, fiddle with the dials and make sure those settings are adjusted on the camera. The MR - if you can get a working one - does at least adjust shutter speed, so is one up already.

However, I now use neither, nor do I use a phone app anymore. I use a Sekonic L308 hung around my neck, which I check when when approaching a subject or if the light looks to have changed. It has the advantage of having both incident and reflective readings, and it doesn't add size to the camera.
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Old 07-18-2019   #71
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For me it is the other way around. Why would I carry an additional item (light-meter), which I use maybe three times a day, if at all? It is not necessary to measure the light for every single photo because (a) (day) light does not change that much and (b) you will start concentrating to much on exposure, which is a technical aspect only.





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What is your reasoning for using an app? Personally, I feel that it would add extra hassle.
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Old 07-18-2019   #72
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For me it is the other way around. Why would I carry an additional item (light-meter), which I use maybe three times a day, if at all? It is not necessary to measure the light for every single photo because (a) (day) light does not change that much and (b) you will start concentrating to much on exposure, which is a technical aspect only.
That is so true, I do own a really good app for metering so I might just follow your lead on this.

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I have a VCII and an MR (which underexposes). The VCII is accurate, small and stylish. But - you have to take your eye of the subject, fiddle with the dials and make sure those settings are adjusted on the camera. The MR - if you can get a working one - does at least adjust shutter speed, so is one up already.

However, I now use neither, nor do I use a phone app anymore. I use a Sekonic L308 hung around my neck, which I check when when approaching a subject or if the light looks to have changed. It has the advantage of having both incident and reflective readings, and it doesn't add size to the camera.
I'll look into it thanks!
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Old 07-18-2019   #73
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Simon,


If you use negatives, trying to "learn the lighting" to be free,
with Exposure-mat ( link http://expomat.tripod.com/ ) to begin and while using it for a while,
you will even not use it anymore = freedom for free !




I use mainly for slide (Kodachrome), in the past, all kind of lightmeters (Leicameter MR, Sekonic, Minolta Spotmeter F, Gossen, etc. ).
But now, my go to is VCMeter II when I need one for "serious metering".
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Old 07-18-2019   #74
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You can always try the Sekonic 208: a lot smaller, easier to use than the 308, and a combining the size of the old style selenium cell light meters with the practicality of the new design (that requires a battery).

I have a series of selenium meters and probably two Sekonic L-208, plus one 308. As said above, check the light just once, or when you sense there's a change (like shadows). And if you shoot negatives... don't worry much: they're very tolerant to over- or under-exposure.
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Old 07-18-2019   #75
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I have the PocketLightMeter app and do NOT recommend it as
sometimes it gives completely bogus readings. I have both the VCII and the Leicameter. The Leica one is nice as it couples w the shutter speed dial. The VCII is nice because it is newer and so may be more accurate if the MR meter has not been serviced in a while. But I nearly always go w/o.
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Old 07-18-2019   #76
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myLightmeter Pro works well for a phone app. It has an adjustable EV scale to help match it with a real light meter. The Sekonic 308 is about the best deal. Incident, reflective, two flash modes and brand new is a couple hundred bucks U.S.. Plus it runs forever on one AA battery.
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Old 07-18-2019   #77
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Originally Posted by simonbakhshnia View Post
What is your reasoning for using an app? Personally, I feel that it would add extra hassle.
You don't have to meter for every shot. Do a metering and adjust the camera settings accordingly and unless the light drastically changes you're pretty much good to go for the rest of the shooting.

I've learnt to shoot without a lightmeter. That's the real beauty of shooting a meterless Leica.

Out of all Leica M options I went with the M4-P. It's been smoother in operation than the M2, (three) M3, M4 and M6 I've shot. Never thought I'd ever shoot flash with a Leica M but I'm glad I went with the M4-P because now I shoot with flash often. I wouldn't want any other M.
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Old 07-18-2019   #78
simonbakhshnia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjäll View Post
You don't have to meter for every shot. Do a metering and adjust the camera settings accordingly and unless the light drastically changes you're pretty much good to go for the rest of the shooting.

I've learnt to shoot without a lightmeter. That's the real beauty of shooting a meterless Leica.

Out of all Leica M options I went with the M4-P. It's been smoother in operation than the M2, (three) M3, M4 and M6 I've shot. Never thought I'd ever shoot flash with a Leica M but I'm glad I went with the M4-P because now I shoot with flash often. I wouldn't want any other M.
Good to know!
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Old 08-01-2019   #79
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Thanks to everyone who helped me decide! Attached is an image of what I picked up! My website is simonbakhshnia.com if you would like to check out my work, feedback is always appreciated as well.
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