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Old 01-14-2019   #201
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Contax T2's and T3's are now selling on Ebay for $1800. Why doesent Kyocera come back and reissue these cameras? They sold for far less than that when new.

They must not see any money in making film cameras.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #202
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So, in fact, there is no such data, thanks for confirming this.

I would suggest that refraining from using terms and phrases such as 'laziness', 'arrogance', and 'ridiculous requests' as it actually weakens your argument.

I'm simply asking to be convinced here, as a skeptic.

There is no doubt of the fact that there is indeed a market for film; that's in actually what you've presented.

But nothing you've presented is actual evidence of some sort of film revolution that will ultimately result in a major manufacturer such as Nikon or Canon producing new film cameras.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #203
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...Lots of local stores offer film processing again. The number of US based film photography channels on youtube have exploded in the last two years...
I am as enthusiastic as you, but will offer some anecodotal information to the contrary. I live in pretty desirable town of (guess) 75-100k people in Southern California. I have an almost impossible time buying film locally, and the only film I can buy is Fuji Superia XTRA 400-36 (not a bad choice) or Kodacolor (Walgreens),and usually only a couple of packs (plus lots of Instax and some disposable cameras).

The main places to buy and process used to be drug stores (Rite Aid, CVS, Walgreens, multiple of each).

It is too the point that I think I personally had an impact on keeping some film stocked in at least my closest Rite-Aid. I was told they are discontinuing. I bought the last 3-pack earlier this year. Every time I go in, I ask someone if they have film (I do this at all the stores). Recently a manager said [paraphrase], 'we were discontinuing, but it seems to be selling so we will keep it stocked'. Last time I went in they had 2x3 packs. I bought one. The one still remains. I would not be surprised if I was the only one buying it!

The only other choice is Walmart. They were carrying only 5 packs of Fujifilm Superia XTRA x 36 (have not looked in months).

None of the drug stores offer processing. Costco does not offer processing. Only Walmart does and they do not return the negatives.

My closest 1-hour type (more like 1-day) photo is about 30-40 minutes drive, and they only scan at the lowest resolution (but give my negatives back). There is a camera store about 25 miles away, and they do sell a decent selection of film and do offer send-out processing, but their main business is of course digital. The last time I was there (November), the manager (maybe owner, not sure) was surprised to learn that Acros was being discontinued! All of my film activity (buying film, supplies, processing) is online now. If I happen to go to a bigger city, or pass by the local camera store, I often stop in and buy some film.
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Old 01-14-2019   #204
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Fujifilm discontinued Acros just recently. That alone is enough to show me they are not interested in film. Acros was easily their #1 best film and their sole remaining black and white film. It is an immense shame that it is now gone.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #205
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Fujifilm discontinued Acros just recently. That alone is enough to show me they are not interested in film. Acros was easily their #1 best film and their sole remaining black and white film. It is an immense shame that it is now gone.
True. I just restarted film this year, and was considering making Acros one of my standards, but of course rethought that. It does sound like Fuji wants to only supply color film. Maybe there is too much competition in the ASA 100 fB&W film domain? Who knows they could still reconsider, but I am not holding my breath.
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Old 01-14-2019   #206
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Yes, none of the 'resurgence of film' has resulted in any of the former minilabs resuming developoment (speaking of Walgreens, Costco, and the like.)

There are of course speciality labs, I have used several, such as Indie Film Lab, the Darkroom, Dwayne's, NCPS, Pro Photo Connection, Miller's Lab, and others. These labs have been around a while, and spent much time and energy building their internet business to support scanning services, as well as development. As local labs closed, these speciality labs filled the gap. But generally speaking they don't cater to the casual shooter/student shooter.

Locally for me, there are only two labs that remain, one being Precision Camera who advertises on this site, and the other being Holland Photo.

I was, in fact, the person who established the relationship between Precision with this site, and started the develop/scan promotion nearly a decade ago, that is still in place. Precision was nearly about to shutter their lab at the time, and one way to help keep it open was to seek out internet business.

Precision has not developed anything other than C41 in many years, they farm out their B&W and E6. But at least their C41 and scanning business still exists.

There had to be places for customers to go, once Walgreens/CVS/Costco (and many others) all closed down their local labs, and these internet suppliers stepped up to fill the gap.

One of the specialty offerings of these labs, is professional scanning. Local labs simply did not have the expertise for professional color correction for wedding shooters, for example. That service is a major part of why the internet labs exist.

There has been no increase in the number of labs, it's actually been on a very steady continuing decline. This does not necessarily mean that business at individual labs is down, however. If one were to speak to a few of these internet labs, they might all report increases in business. It doesn't necessarily follow that the increase in business is due to an increase in the number of film shooters, however.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #207
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The drug stores in my town not only have closed their mini-labs, but do not even offer send-out processing. I have been using The Darkroom (I would not have used the mini-labs for most of my processing in any case, as I am mainly shooting B&W, but some color too).
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Old 01-14-2019   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Contax T2's and T3's are now selling on Ebay for $1800. Why doesn't Kyocera come back and reissue these cameras? They sold for far less than that when new.

They must not see any money in making film cameras.
They would if the numbers were there, but the fact that few hundred sell in the used market over the years from $500 to these prices isn`t going to do anything for anyone.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #209
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I live in a town with a major university next door. 40,000 students. The lab that is in town does a single run of film per week. Just one run.
Aye that. The shop near me is quite well known as being in existence due to (and in essence propped up by) the local community college and its photography program. IE, if the school were gone, so would be the lab. I can tell when it is summertime (and no classes are in session) when I bring in film and the "sequence numbers" on the envelopes are nearly unchanged since the last time.
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Old 01-14-2019   #210
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Here on rff lots of members are still captured in their "film is dead" bubble. Get out of it .
Nobody thinks film is dead, but we just are not as optimistic as you are... which is extreme.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #211
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In Chicago, all the big pro labs have closed down. Helix Camera, Triangle Camera, and another place I used to use on Ontario street. Can't recall the name but they were big. None have reopened.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #212
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Nobody thinks film is dead, but we just are not as optimistic as you are... which is extreme.
I'm a data driven person so when claims are made, I want to see the data.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #213
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The Nikon F2A is a great, well-made camera, but it's not one of the more desirable models. The popular cameras are in high demand and their prices reflect that. Any new film camera would have to be a reissue of a popular camera, or at least be as equally desirable as one. That means choosing the right specs, beautiful design, and great build-quality.
It’s not desirable? That’s interesting, because with the same lens fitted, it provides exactly the same result as the F6 I bought new.
I get your point, but my point was that no company can, or will, produce a camera as well built and as competent as an F2 at a price level which people will buy, and at which the company can make money. Contax T3, neither.
The fact that the F2 isn’t the internet flavor of the month in terms of gear lust, doesn’t change that equation.
Whatever.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #214
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I'm a data driven person so when claims are made, I want to see the data.
I don`t think his claims are baseless, but I think he is overly optimistic. I do think there are new labs (I know there are). There have been new films introduced. Kodak did make Ektachrome again. However, is it indicative of a huge expansion in a film revival that will lead to mainstream film use and camera manufacturing? Maybe not. Jan lives this stuff. I think he gets excited by it. We can`t fault him for that. Any new photographic product is a good thing because it gives us choices.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #215
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Yes.

What's been described here is the ongoing film industry. Some films get discontinued, some films get introduced, others re-introduced.

What's not been described is growth sufficient to justify camera manufacturers producing new models.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #216
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...at least not MAJOR camera manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, etc.). There may be room for a new business model (think Taxi vs. Uber; Paypal vs. BofA; Tesla vs. GM; etc.).
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Old 01-14-2019   #217
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...at least not MAJOR camera manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, etc.). There may be room for a new business model...
Which reminds me, we should be seeing that new "Reflex" camera any time soon now; the one with the interchangeable film backs and interchangeable lens mounts. They're sure hitting the market at the right time, no?
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Old 01-14-2019   #218
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Which reminds me, we should be seeing that new "Reflex" camera any time soon now; the one with the interchangeable film backs and interchangeable lens mounts. They're sure hitting the market at the right time, no?
There may be room for a [succesful] new business model...
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Old 01-14-2019   #219
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...at least not MAJOR camera manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, etc.)
Yes, as the topic states in the title, the Canikons.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #220
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Yes, as the topic states in the title, the Canikons.
I recalled that, but the topic has expanded quite a bit from there. No foul sticking to the OP of course.
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Old 01-14-2019   #221
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Yes, just reiterating your clarification of 'major manufacturer.'

There will be (and are) small offerings, such as panomicron
 

Old 01-14-2019   #222
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Yes, just reiterating your clarification of 'major manufacturer.'

There will be (and are) small offerings, such as panomicron
This is interesting. Looks [partially] 3D printed. looks kind of like a Graflex type system (less flexible, but certainly the right direction). The future may be in this direction if the big guys do not step up.
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Old 01-14-2019   #223
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...at least not MAJOR camera manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, etc.). There may be room for a new business model (think Taxi vs. Uber; Paypal vs. BofA; Tesla vs. GM; etc.).
Uber filled a need created by price fixing in the taxi industry, unlike new camera bodies.

Paypal was a brilliant idea which created a service no one had thought of before, unlike camera bodies, of which there are millions.

As of May 2015 Elon Musk had received over $4.9 billion in government subsidies, because there wasn’t a need, there was politics, and he’s a born showman. That’s his business model.

None of these are business models which I see as being transferable to tooling up production of new, quality film cameras. Personally. Though there is most certainly room for someone to try this new business model. Lots of room.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #224
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Uber filled a need created by price fixing in the taxi industry, unlike new camera bodies.

Paypal was a brilliant idea which created a service no one had thought of before, unlike camera bodies, of which there are millions.

As of May 2015 Elon Musk had received over $4.9 billion in government subsidies, because there wasn’t a need, there was politics, and he’s a born showman. That’s his business model.

None of these are business models which I see as being transferable to tooling up production of new, quality film cameras. Personally. Though there is most certainly room for someone to try this new business model. Lots of room.
Ok, I will give you some of those points (esp. on your birthday). I am sure there are a ton of other examples (air taxis, ebikes, airBnB etc.), but: price fixing by taxi companies has been happening for 100+ years. It was a new enabling technology (smart phones) that allowed the model to be broken. 3D printing (I believe) is the technology that will enable a new camera industry.
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Old 01-14-2019   #225
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Ok, I will give you some of those points (esp. on your birthday). I am sure there are a ton of other examples (air taxis, ebikes, airBnB etc.), but: price fixing by taxi companies has been happening for 100+ years. It was a new enabling technology (smart phones) that allowed the model to be broken. 3D printing (I believe) is the technology that will enable a new camera industry.
Thanks for the birthday nod. Would not the 3D printing ability, current and future, be more useful in creating parts to be used to repair the known failure nodes of the best and most common existing cameras instead of trying to build entire new cameras from scratch? That’s something that actually could be done by Joe Sixpack in his garage. You’re not going to be making optical viewfinder lenses with 3D printing.
There’s already somebody making hard to find Contarex hoods that way, as an example. As the 3D tech improves, or with the use of existing CAD CAM tech more durable metal parts can be made. That’s not a pipe dream.
I can see that as being both realistic and helpful.

No?
 

Old 01-14-2019   #226
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Thanks for the birthday nod. Would not the 3D printing ability, current and future, be more useful in creating parts to be used to repair the known failure nodes of the best and most common existing cameras instead of trying to build entire new cameras from scratch? That’s something that actually could be done by Joe Sixpack in his garage. You’re not going to be making optical viewfinder lenses with 3D printing.
There’s already somebody making hard to find Contarex hoods that way, as an example. As the 3D tech improves, or with the use of existing CAD CAM tech more durable metal parts can be made. That’s not a pipe dream.
I can see that as being both realistic and helpful.

No?
I think replacement parts is a good application (especially once metal systems become more available).

If you follow the thread up I addressed some of this. The idea is that many components are already available and part of the digital camera infrastructure (and many came from film cameras to begin with- lenses, shutters, exposure systems, would also include viewfinders). No need to print that stuff.

I also talk about a standards/open-source approach (much like Bluetooth, wifi, USB, etc. in the computer world). That would get a lot of entrepreneurs making the components needed and help create an alternative camera market.

I mentioned that digging up the old classic gems is a place for the enthusiasts (like many of us), but suspect that keeping this going longer is going to require non-enthusiasts to join (and creating new enthusiasts). I also mention that the iPhone may have already killed this possibility (though some are joining with smart phone technology).

I have seen 3D printed stuff also (a guy in Germany buying interesting old lenses and mounting them in M42 to adapt for digital cameras; I actually bought a couple rear caps for my Contax mount lenses; the panomicron camera mentioned by splitimageview above, etc.).
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Old 01-14-2019   #227
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I'd like to see some of these film sales numbers from an independent source.

"Still selling Bessa IIIs" isn't really an answer. This actually indicates very soft demand...

In any case, assuming that new film cameras are indeed on the horizon, what would such cameras need, in order to entice purchasers to buy new, instead of buying used?

Sure, a new warranty is nice, but how much is that warranty going to cost?

Considering a new F6 is $2500, and used ones routinely sell in the $600-$800 range, and the vast majority of used F6s were not used professionally and have still have decades of service.

Other film cameras are cheap enough it's easy to buy 2 or 3 in case one fails, so the cost is still far below what a newly produced model would cost.

What, if any, gimmicks/features could be added to a new film camera design to entice buyers?
You guys talk about used as if itīs steady limitless supply of Leica M2, Nikon F3 etc on ebay.. Itīs over.

A Leica m6 is selling for 2k + . Itīs going up. I would rather buy a new Leica MA or MP the way itīs happening. Thatīs why Leica is happy about their new cameras. Those are new cameras w/ new names but w/ the same design.

ZI ZM sells for 1.8k. Used. A new one was 1.4k. Cosina could sell it again.. a redesigned ZI, for a bit more or a bit less. It would sell.

Donīt even need to talk about film issues: if the used market keeps the same pace, there will be new film cameras from Japan.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #228
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Donīt even need to talk about film issues: if the used market keeps the same pace, there will be new film cameras from Japan.
Why only from Japan?

The French, the Italians, the British, the Germans, and some more Europeans must restart and make new film cameras!
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Old 01-14-2019   #229
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I think the future could be hybrid- i.e., create cameras that can be digital OR film. Maybe both (SLR where the mirrored image gets digitized?).
Some cameras will be hybrid. Not all. It may be better to have two bodies w/ the same lens mount just like Leica does.

The more possibilities built into one single camera, the heavier it tends to be.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #230
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Why only from Japan?

The French, the Italians, the British, the Germans, and some more Europeans must restart and make new film cameras!
Nikon can sell an FM4 quick and easy. I doubt they will bring a RF although i would like them to. Cosina can do it.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #231
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Nikon can sell an FM4 quick and easy.
Seems they cast their hat into the ring with a full-frame digital mirrorless camera, the Z6 and Z7. Maybe they know something that we don't?
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Old 01-14-2019   #232
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You guys talk about used as if itīs steady limitless supply of Leica M2, Nikon F3 etc on ebay.. Itīs over.

A Leica m6 is selling for 2k + . Itīs going up. I would rather buy a new Leica MA or MP the way itīs happening. Thatīs why Leica is happy about their new cameras. Those are new cameras w/ new names but w/ the same design.

ZI ZM sells for 1.8k. Used. A new one was 1.4k. Cosina could sell it again.. a redesigned ZI, for a bit more or a bit less. It would sell.

Donīt even need to talk about film issues: if the used market keeps the same pace, there will be new film cameras from Japan.
I'm not sure what the market prices have to do with this.

The increasing prices of some specific models of film cameras does *not* necessarily directly correlate to increasing film demand.

Assuming that some major manufacturer *DOES* decide that it's worth contributing engineering, manufacturing, and marketing resources to releasing a new design film camera, I ask again, what features/gimmicks could be included to entice buyers to buy new?
 

Old 01-14-2019   #233
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A few yrs ago i would be totally sceptic about any film ressurgence. On the last couple months i have dug around and there is so much action, so much enthusiasm from new consummers. Itīs obvious the habits are changing. Sales and growth happen based on buying habits, wishes, feelings.

Labs died in the recent past. Sure. It will never be like it was in the 70s and 80s. Film and digital will coexist. Thinking in terms of one or the other like we did for the last 15 yrs is a mistake right now. As much as it is a mistake thinking that a company can only survive playing an hegemony game. Niche markets is one of the gates of the current economy and thatīs where we diverge in this thread.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #234
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There appears to be some interest in

analog photography:
https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20photography

analog camera:
https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...amera&date=all

photography in general is not doing well:
https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...&q=photography

analog photography is better:
https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20photography
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Old 01-14-2019   #235
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What I have said is that the situation has changed in the last three years in the US: Labs see increasing demand again, lots of labs invest in marketing and new gear. New labs and camera stores have opened.
Forget what was ten years ago. There is a new dynamic.

Cheers, Jan
Yes. Something is happening now which is very different from 5yrs ago.
I have used film and labs for decades. I threw it all out (literally threw enlarger out when moving houses) because digital just took over. I have been using top digital cameras from Nikon. I let Pentax cameras rot. Nikon film cameras rot. I was going Fujifilm this year but suddenly i felt a different vibe so i went searching and found a new logic going on.

Professional photography has changed significantly. It has dwindled, diminished. Magazines are gone. Advertising is gone. Yet we see enthusiasm for photography. Itīs a new reverence for the photo image and less based on the pro market. Pros who are using digital will be the last to go w/ the film. Itīs the enthusiasts who are driving things now.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #236
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try this one:

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20photography
 

Old 01-14-2019   #237
colker
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
It’s not desirable? That’s interesting, because with the same lens fitted, it provides exactly the same result as the F6 I bought new.
I get your point, but my point was that no company can, or will, produce a camera as well built and as competent as an F2 at a price level which people will buy, and at which the company can make money. Contax T3, neither.
The fact that the F2 isn’t the internet flavor of the month in terms of gear lust, doesn’t change that equation.
Whatever.
You wonīt see Pro film cameras. You will see enthusiastīs film cameras. Like Voigtlanderīs Bessa.

Pros will use digital. Deadlines now donīt allow for film processing. Art directors want to see the picture while itīs being made.
Film is for enthusiasts.
Otoh.. pro photography is shrinking!
 

Old 01-14-2019   #238
css9450
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Originally Posted by colker View Post
I have used film and labs for decades. I threw it all out... I let Pentax cameras rot. Nikon film cameras rot.
And the only cure is something shiny and new?
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Nikon S2, S3, F, F2, F3, FM2, FA, N90S, D80, D7000, D750, Sony a6000, Canon IIf, Leica CL, Tower type 3, Zorki 4, Vito B, Perkeo II, Rollei 35....
 

Old 01-14-2019   #239
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Originally Posted by colker View Post
Professional photography has changed significantly. It has dwindled, diminished. Magazines are gone. Advertising is gone.
Interesting.

There are far more pros now with digital than there ever were with film.

Sure, print advertising has changed, but it's just been replaced, not eliminated.
 

Old 01-14-2019   #240
colker
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Interesting.

There are far more pros now with digital than there ever were with film.

Sure, print advertising has changed, but it's just been replaced, not eliminated.
If you have numbers supporting that affirmation.. I donīt . I can only talk from knowing how the market for pro photography has operated on the last 35 years.
 
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