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Well luminous landscape hates the Quattro
Old 09-03-2014   #1
GaryLH
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Well luminous landscape hates the Quattro

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...2_review.shtml

Two different people review the Quattro..they hate it overall.. Image quality they liked. A one step forward two steps backwards type of review.

I can understand and appreciate the issues they have.. I think that the biggest issue is the change in design of the body.. U are either gonna hate it or figure out how to live w/ it. If your hands are the right size, u may actually be ok w/ the comfort issues that they mentioned.

Personally, I am happy w/ it.. But then again.. I don't use spp that much (just to extract the jpgs, mainly and deal w/ a raw to tiff here and there. I find the jpg engine is very good myself. And it helps that I am mainly shooting w/ small size raw (5mp non-foveon talk).

If I had bigger hands, I can c where the Quattro would be an issue to use though.

Would I buy another one... Nope... Not until they fix the stupid sd door.

I probably used the dp2m about 35 to 50% of the time compared to all the other cameras that I could use. W/ the high iso capability, better jpg engine, slightly faster af, I think my usage w/ the Quattro is going to be more like 75-80% level..only time will tell.

Gary
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Old 09-03-2014   #2
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for some reason i find comfort in the report that the size increase was necessary for battery and heat dissipation reasons. makes me a little more sympathetic to the longer design, which i don't like. good to read it still has excellent image quality but the SPP issues sound horrendous.
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Old 09-03-2014   #3
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Reviewers hated also original DP1 for almost everything and now what, it's fine camera for certain type of use; that said people used to machine gun kind of shooting still will be disappointed but once they realize this is different cup of tea there's no conflict.
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Old 09-03-2014   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfatty View Post
for some reason i find comfort in the report that the size increase was necessary for battery and heat dissipation reasons. makes me a little more sympathetic to the longer design, which i don't like. good to read it still has excellent image quality but the SPP issues sound horrendous.
About maybe 15-20% slower than spp 5 overall is what it feels like if u are using large raw files. I just setup a batch convert to tiff and walk away. Since they have full size fine jpg embeded in their raw files, a jpg extract is super fast.

Gary
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Old 09-03-2014   #5
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The images look good to me, but to each their own.
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Old 09-03-2014   #6
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What, the Audi Quattro? What's not to like, and what do Luminous Landscape care?



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Old 09-03-2014   #7
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About maybe 15-20% slower than spp 5 overall is what it feels like if u are using large raw files. I just setup a batch convert to tiff and walk away. Since they have full size fine jpg embeded in their raw files, a jpg extract is super fast.

Gary
Forgot to mention...

When u consider that the tiff16 went from an 88mb file to a 122mb, it is understandable why it is slower.

Add this to the fact, in the age of 64 bit apps, this one is still a 32 bit one.

I would not mind so much if they would allow cmd line hooks into the app so u could write some canned scripts for what I want to do.

Gary
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Ludicrous Landscape
Old 09-03-2014   #8
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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Ludicrous Landscape

Does anybody still take that site seriously? After that famously flawed film v digital they did a few years ago, they got completely owned by Tim Parkin over at On Landscape, when he proved them wrong. Look to the advertisements...
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Old 09-03-2014   #9
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Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
Does anybody still take that site seriously? After that famously flawed film v digital they did a few years ago, they got completely owned by Tim Parkin over at On Landscape, when he proved them wrong. Look to the advertisements...
Darn right. They made fools of themselves...and despite being proven wrong, they refused to address the issue. Poor scientific method.
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Old 09-03-2014   #10
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Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
Does anybody still take that site seriously? After that famously flawed film v digital they did a few years ago, they got completely owned by Tim Parkin over at On Landscape, when he proved them wrong. Look to the advertisements...
Why? Really why? They apparently made one mistake and you stop reading it? They still are capable photographers and when they USE a camera, I'll read it. Do you never make any mistake? Should we take YOU seriously?
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Old 09-04-2014   #11
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I have a low opinion of the site in general because I personally believe they sing the tune they are paid to sing by their advertisers. I think there are better sources of information about photography on the web. Of course I make mistakes. I'm human. If I know I've made one I try to own up to it. Something, incidentally, as the previous commenter mentioned, they singularly failed to do in the instance referred to. I couldn't give a flying if YOU want to take ME seriously or not. That is completely up to YOU but either way it will not make any difference to ME. Really.
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Old 09-04-2014   #12
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They shill for Adobe long time. Lots of whine about that raw converter.
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Old 09-04-2014   #13
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I honestly don't understand why well heeled companies like Sigma and Fuji with unique and very capable sensors don't understand the importance of providing raw processors that are as good as their sensors.
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Old 09-04-2014   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
I have a low opinion of the site in general because I personally believe they sing the tune they are paid to sing by their advertisers. I think there are better sources of information about photography on the web. Of course I make mistakes. I'm human. If I know I've made one I try to own up to it. Something, incidentally, as the previous commenter mentioned, they singularly failed to do in the instance referred to. I couldn't give a flying if YOU want to take ME seriously or not. That is completely up to YOU but either way it will not make any difference to ME. Really.
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Well, this is a different remark then the one before. In that there was just one reason why you thought the the site couldn't be taken seriously, now you say you have a low opinion of the site in general. Fair enough, you either like it or you don't. I'm sure there are sites you like that I don't, that's normal.

Nice of you to reply to my post, now I know you care enough about my opinion to tell me you don't give a flying, really - glad I asked

Back on topic: when I saw the first pictures of this new Sigma I thought it looked like a crowbar, but a crowbar is a lever and that is a good thing, it isn't for a camera. Also, it didn't look like it was a nice camera to hold, and the review shows that.
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Old 09-04-2014   #15
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Originally Posted by Addy101 View Post
Well, this is a different remark then the one before. In that there was just one reason why you thought the the site couldn't be taken seriously, now you say you have a low opinion of the site in general. Fair enough, you either like it or you don't. I'm sure there are sites you like that I don't, that's normal.

Nice of you to reply to my post, now I know you care enough about my opinion to tell me you don't give a flying, really - glad I asked

Back on topic: when I saw the first pictures of this new Sigma I thought it looked like a crowbar, but a crowbar is a lever and that is a good thing, it isn't for a camera. Also, it didn't look like it was a nice camera to hold, and the review shows that.
Well in fairness you, apparently, cared enough about mine, to ask your question and I was simply answering a question that had been asked. But I really don't have anything else I would like to say to you except, live and let live. I certainly think our conversation is done. Past done, actually.
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Old 09-04-2014   #16
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It's a funny old world.. here's a review site complaining a camera is badly-thought out with performance issues; and their review is badly-thought out with performance issues. Their criticisms might well be valid, but given they present them in such a semi-literate manner, it's hard to care.
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Old 09-04-2014   #17
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Will give it a try

Sigma Photo Pro is avalaible for download here
http://www.sigma-sd.com/download/photopro.html

Quattro RAW files are available here (scroll down)
http://www.photographyblog.com/previ...uattro_photos/

Edit: The link above is for SPP 5.x which does not support the Quattro. I did not find SPP 6 anywhere on Sigmas site.
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Old 09-04-2014   #18
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I honestly don't understand why well heeled companies like Sigma and Fuji with unique and very capable sensors don't understand the importance of providing raw processors that are as good as their sensors.
They do, it's just slow. You might better ask why they feel they need to provide one at all, when they could just output dngs and let Adobe deal with it. The reason they don't is because Adobe has a **** raw converter, and they can do it better.
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Old 09-04-2014   #19
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I had a DP-1 as my first digital camera, thought it was brilliant, if the Quattro is as good as that was, I'd be happy with it.

But then, I used it like a film camera, go out, take maybe 20 or 30 photos, no rapid fire, high ISO, video or anything like that.
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Old 09-04-2014   #20
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Typical Sigma. I find it funny that the reviewers excepted something different.
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Old 09-04-2014   #21
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SSP is universally despised from what I've read. At this point (both in the history of computers and software and given the length of time Sigma has had with the sensors etc.) software so bad is inexcusable.

I've always been curious about these cameras but I agree with LL that life is far too short to be wasting time with crappy software. I just can't do it.
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Old 09-04-2014   #22
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SSP is universally despised from what I've read. At this point (both in the history of computers and software and given the length of time Sigma has had with the sensors etc.) software so bad is inexcusable.

I've always been curious about these cameras but I agree with LL that life is far too short to be wasting time with crappy software. I just can't do it.
I totally agree. Was blown away by the DP2M. SPP is a huge flaming wreck.

In my line of work I've had the misfortune to use all sorts of awful software (ESRI, JMP, Matlab in its earlier form) but nothing compares to the sheer displeasure of using SPP. If I need 40 minutes to work on a file in Photoshop, I'd guess the SPP equivalent is probably 10-15 hours.
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Old 09-04-2014   #23
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Just use spp as a raw to tiff16 process and run everything thru batch processing. Take those tiffs into your favorite photo sw. Outside of batch processing (Merrill or Quattro), I only use the spp raw sw to edit problem shots.

Unlike the Merrill jpg engine (a dog), the new one on the Quattro is good enough that even pixel peeping it is hard to tell which is better until u get up into iso values greater than 800..ymmv

On the Quattro, I am perfectly happy just using the extracted jpg which is a FINE.. Not so on the Merrill.

Sigma is basically a hw company. I have seen so many times in the past in my industry.....unless hw start up gets lucky and find the right sw people to work on their fw, it is a flaming wreck.. The same can be said about spp, I don't think they ever found the right sw people or plm (product line managers) that could c the whole picture.

Gary
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Old 09-04-2014   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
Just use spp as a raw to tiff16 process and run everything thru batch processing. Take those tiffs into your favorite photo sw. Outside of batch processing (Merrill or Quattro), I only use the spp raw sw to edit problem shots.

Unlike the Merrill jpg engine (a dog), the new one on the Quattro is good enough that even pixel peeping it is hard to tell which is better until u get up into iso values greater than 800..ymmv

On the Quattro, I am perfectly happy just using the extracted jpg which is a FINE.. Not so on the Merrill.

Sigma is basically a hw company. I have seen so many times in the past in my industry.....unless hw start up gets lucky and find the right sw people to work on their fw, it is a flaming wreck.. The same can be said about spp, I don't think they ever found the right sw people or plm (product line managers) that could c the whole picture.

Gary
The tiff files are absolutely huge But then again none of Sigmas can be machine-gunned...guess the problems solves itself.

I just don't get it, in this age of abundant coding talent, why can't a company as prestigious as Sigma put together a functioning software team? SPP is literally every bit as bad as a 15-year old copy of Photoshop, maybe even worse because said copy runs smoothly when you put modern hardware behind it.
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Old 09-04-2014   #25
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They do, it's just slow. You might better ask why they feel they need to provide one at all, when they could just output dngs and let Adobe deal with it. The reason they don't is because Adobe has a **** raw converter, and they can do it better.
You might be right regarding adobe, but they are the gold standard for user interface, workflow and processing speed. I have a feeling both sigma and fuji have at least as much money as Adobe. We need to hold them both to a higher standard.
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Old 09-04-2014   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy C View Post
SSP is universally despised from what I've read. At this point (both in the history of computers and software and given the length of time Sigma has had with the sensors etc.) software so bad is inexcusable.

I've always been curious about these cameras but I agree with LL that life is far too short to be wasting time with crappy software. I just can't do it.

Err ... sorry I like it
Sure its slow but it has everything I need ....... I`ll get my coat then .
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Old 09-04-2014   #27
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Err ... sorry I like it
Sure its slow but it has everything I need ....... I`ll get my coat then .
Right behind you. I never really had a problem with SPP.

And, as Gary said in #23, export to .tif and go on your way if you prefer.
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Old 09-04-2014   #28
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Ironically, it's that LL's "review" that currently get's me thinking I should get one

Ditto on SPP - never had a problem and I actually LIKE working with SPP, export it into 16bit TIF and go from there. One has to admit that sometimes the specialized things just outweight the generic things such as Adobe RAW converter etc.
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Old 09-04-2014   #29
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I totally agree. Was blown away by the DP2M. SPP is a huge flaming wreck.

In my line of work I've had the misfortune to use all sorts of awful software (ESRI, JMP, Matlab in its earlier form) but nothing compares to the sheer displeasure of using SPP. If I need 40 minutes to work on a file in Photoshop, I'd guess the SPP equivalent is probably 10-15 hours.
Never had to work with DB2 or Lotus Notes then? I'll take SPP any time over those 2.

And yep, got a DP1m and DP2m so I have used SPP. I admit it isn't brilliant and could probably be faster. Don't unserstand if I open a folder with say 4GB of files why they couldn't load them all in the memory provided. Being still 32-bit got something to do with it of course. But again compared to medium format and scanning it isn't that bad.
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Old 09-04-2014   #30
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The tiff files are absolutely huge But then again none of Sigmas can be machine-gunned...guess the problems solves itself.

I just don't get it, in this age of abundant coding talent, why can't a company as prestigious as Sigma put together a functioning software team? SPP is literally every bit as bad as a 15-year old copy of Photoshop, maybe even worse because said copy runs smoothly when you put modern hardware behind it.
If your existing talent is only so-so and the boss doesn't realize it..or is not willing to make the change (replace those sw people), u exist in a limbo.

Or is not willing to invest the money required for a rethink of the design. For example a raw plugin or a version that is setup to batch run raws thru apple automater or any generic script via cmd line inputs.

It really is really a hw centric company. Same w/ Fuji. There are things that Fuji does in their fw, that current embedded sw practices really doesn't do anymore.

As I think about it.. I suspect the sigma sw team maybe so small that they are doing double duty..embedded sw (the fw) and spp. It is rare u c guys that are really good at embedded sw do well w/ spp like application programming or vice versa.

Gary
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Old 09-04-2014   #31
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Have been browsing this thread and had to add my vote for SPP - I like it too. I use the last version of SPP5 with the Merrill cameras and aside from my liking the interface for X3F conversion it is also pretty fast and very rarely crashes. However, I remember when the DP1M first came out, SPP was all over the place then and it took quite a few re-releases to sort.
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Old 09-04-2014   #32
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Never had to work with DB2 or Lotus Notes then? I'll take SPP any time over those 2.

And yep, got a DP1m and DP2m so I have used SPP. I admit it isn't brilliant and could probably be faster. Don't unserstand if I open a folder with say 4GB of files why they couldn't load them all in the memory provided. Being still 32-bit got something to do with it of course. But again compared to medium format and scanning it isn't that bad.
I'm no programmer, and managing the actual database is usually another man's job.

But the hardware I use is seriously overpowered for graphics, and I have become used to juggling a dozen full-size files in PS with infinite step records (>500) - SPP is just such a huge step back. Reminds me of the days I started working with digital files on a 486...
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Old 09-04-2014   #33
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. Don't unserstand if I open a folder with say 4GB of files why they couldn't load them all in the memory provided. Being still 32-bit got something to do with it of course. But again compared to medium format and scanning it isn't that bad.
I suspect it is due to the size of the full size fine jpg they embeded in the raw file plus being only 32 bit sw. They need to render thumbnails from them. To make things faster, I told the spp browser to only worry about raw files..since most of my shooting these days is in small raw w/ occasional large raw (24mb vs 56mb average raw file)..it goes pretty quick.. Any jpg or tiff16 file is then ignored by the file browser.

Gary
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Old 09-04-2014   #34
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Ironically, it's that LL's "review" that currently get's me thinking I should get one

Ditto on SPP - never had a problem and I actually LIKE working with SPP, export it into 16bit TIF and go from there. One has to admit that sometimes the specialized things just outweight the generic things such as Adobe RAW converter etc.
Compared to 6.01 version of spp.. The current 6.06 is much more stable. I hear October (rumor) is when they are targetting to release the version 6.1. Currently, spp 6 is more about Quattro.

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Old 09-04-2014   #35
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I'm completely surprised that the 'focus' button doesn't activate the autofocus (as I never have af set to half-shutter on my other cameras). The way the af lock functions on my Merrill cameras is my biggest gripe. The Quattro doesn't seem to offer any improvement, unfortunately. I'm so torn about this camera. The DP2M and DP3M are still punching above their weight for me, so...
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Old 09-04-2014   #36
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Never had to work with DB2 or Lotus Notes then? I'll take SPP any time over those 2.

And yep, got a DP1m and DP2m so I have used SPP. I admit it isn't brilliant and could probably be faster. Don't unserstand if I open a folder with say 4GB of files why they couldn't load them all in the memory provided. Being still 32-bit got something to do with it of course. But again compared to medium format and scanning it isn't that bad.
I'll give you Lotus Notes, but won't hear ill words spoken of DB2.

I didn't mind SPP though, but I'm not a big one for post processing, maybe if I was, I'd dislike it more.
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Old 09-04-2014   #37
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I'm completely surprised that the 'focus' button doesn't activate the autofocus (as I never have af set to half-shutter on my other cameras). The way the af lock functions on my Merrill cameras is my biggest gripe. The Quattro doesn't seem to offer any improvement, unfortunately. I'm so torn about this camera. The DP2M and DP3M are still punching above their weight for me, so...
Unless u can make use of the higher iso or faster af.. I would not worry about it.

As I said in other post, I find I actually like shooting in small raw much better and I never make prints bigger than 11x19 anyway. More like 8x10..

The mid and small raws from the Merrill don't look as good as what I am getting on the Quattro. The Merrill to he is a large raw to tiff 16 only evironment. The Quattro is already a very capable camera for my use as a small raw to jpg or tiff16 camera.

Gary
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Old 09-04-2014   #38
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regarding SPP, I used Sigma camera for past year or so. can understand LL harsh comments about it, my feelings were similar when first started using it. also agree its inexcusable that state of this software stays like it is, year after year, while same company is providing new cameras with their Foveon sensor (on my scale, much more complex task than making a software for PC or Mac).

but, after initial shock with SPP, just started using it. with its -90's look and feel, its kinda interesting blast from the past once learned is quirks, its pretty effortless extra step, in workflow with Sigma raw files.
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Old 09-05-2014   #39
Samouraļ
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Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
Unless u can make use of the higher iso or faster af.. I would not worry about it.

As I said in other post, I find I actually like shooting in small raw much better and I never make prints bigger than 11x19 anyway. More like 8x10..

The mid and small raws from the Merrill don't look as good as what I am getting on the Quattro. The Merrill to he is a large raw to tiff 16 only evironment. The Quattro is already a very capable camera for my use as a small raw to jpg or tiff16 camera.

Gary
It's not a matter of af speed, it's more a matter of getting the lens set to a distance and then being able to snap off a bunch of shots without having to re-focus/have fear of losing your af-lock (the af-lock doesn't work very well on the Merrill cameras). Ideally, the DP Foveon cameras would have a manual focus lens with hard stops and a distance scale.
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Old 09-05-2014   #40
GaryLH
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Originally Posted by Samouraļ View Post
It's not a matter of af speed, it's more a matter of getting the lens set to a distance and then being able to snap off a bunch of shots without having to re-focus/have fear of losing your af-lock (the af-lock doesn't work very well on the Merrill cameras). Ideally, the DP Foveon cameras would have a manual focus lens with hard stops and a distance scale.
The pre-dp cameras had a dial on the top left corner than had a distance scale which was used in mf mode instead of on the lens if I remember correctly.

The AEL button on the Quattro can be changed to an af lock which is what I have done. It does not provide the Fuji style af lock where pressing it in mf will cause af focus and lock operation. Instead the sigma af lock is a two step approach.
- half press shutter to get af lock
- hit the af lock
now no matter how many times u press shutter, the focus point does not change. I use it for multi-frame stitch sometimes to create a wide angle lens effect.

Gary
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