ADOX CMS 20 ... wow! no what.
Old 09-30-2010   #1
robklurfield
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ADOX CMS 20 ... wow! no what.

Just processed my first two rolls of CMS 20. My gosh, this stuff is totally beautiful. Problem is that I am careless and clumsy. I mixed my Adox developer with tap water (this while standing right next to the bottle of distilled water... dummy, me). This reminded me why I like one-hour stand development of stocks like Neopan; they're almost idiot-proof and, well, sometimes, I can be a bit of an idiot. Anyway, I certainly need some practice with properly exposing this amazing film. And, next time, I will actually use the distilled water. And, of course, I need to be more careful with timing, temperature and handling. The film backing on this stuff is a challenge with a strong propensity for reverse curling (going the opposite of the direction your intuition would suggest). You need sharp scissors to cut it. It seems to scratch easily. But, oh my god that grain is so fine and the resolution so high. I think it will be worth the trouble for me.

In any case, does anyone out there have any suggestions for cleaning stains of my first two rolls.? Here's some sample frames. I blame my tap water faux pax for most of this, though my agitation could stand to be smoother, too.


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Old 09-30-2010   #2
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I keep on wanting to clean my monitor looking at the sky.... Looks pretty cool though.
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Old 09-30-2010   #3
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why is it so high contrast and vignetting like appearance?
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Old 09-30-2010   #4
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most of the roll was underexposed by at least a stop or more. hard sun. most of these were shot with a CV 15/4.5 wide open or near to it. no clue about the vignetting.

Pavel, if you know how to clean this film, I'll help you to skip cleaning your monitor. I assume this is residue from poor agitation together with hard water. I hope that using distilled or de-ionized water. I'm guessing it's not coming off. but, live and learn ... so I'll avoid those marks with better water next time.
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Old 09-30-2010   #5
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Soaking it for some time in distilled water and finally rinsing it with new clean distilled water should do the trick.
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Old 09-30-2010   #6
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Old 09-30-2010   #7
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totally overexposed in the center and black in the vignetted areas. *** did I do? so, consistently screwed up. lens? exposure? shutter curtain issue? I'm baffled.

nevertheless, check out those individual grains of sand. if I can master this stuff, I'll be really pleased. will shoot next roll with a different lens in less bright light. will try metering a little more carefully. will use the good water. but I'll keep all the other variables (time, temp, etc.) constant.
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Old 09-30-2010   #8
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thanks. would you do that in a developing tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahe69 View Post
Soaking it for some time in distilled water and finally rinsing it with new clean distilled water should do the trick.
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Old 09-30-2010   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robklurfield View Post
most of the roll was underexposed by at least a stop or more. hard sun. most of these were shot with a CV 15/4.5 wide open or near to it. no clue about the vignetting.

Pavel, if you know how to clean this film, I'll help you to skip cleaning your monitor. I assume this is residue from poor agitation together with hard water. I hope that using distilled or de-ionized water. I'm guessing it's not coming off. but, live and learn ... so I'll avoid those marks with better water next time.
Would water do that to film? In my darkroom class we use what I think is tap water when mixing D76 1:1. I do a prewash with the water, then develop with the D76 1:1 mixed with tap. Never seen something like this.
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Old 09-30-2010   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robklurfield View Post
thanks. would you do that in a developing tank?
I guess it makes little difference. But putting the film back on a reel and soaking it in a tank might be the most convenient way and would probably consume the least amount of distilled water.
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Old 09-30-2010   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pevelg View Post
Would water do that to film? In my darkroom class we use what I think is tap water when mixing D76 1:1. I do a prewash with the water, then develop with the D76 1:1 mixed with tap. Never seen something like this.
This depends on the calcium content i.e. hardness of your tap water.
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Old 09-30-2010   #12
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this film is actually known for being acutely sensitive to water quality. I always use tap water on my Neopan, but here it was an inadvertent error. if the developer weren't so expensive, I probably would have poured it out and started over, but I figured with my first roll to leave a little to chance. distilled water was $1.00 for a gallon at Walgreens, so no big deal for as often as I'll be shooting this film.
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Would water do that to film? In my darkroom class we use what I think is tap water when mixing D76 1:1. I do a prewash with the water, then develop with the D76 1:1 mixed with tap. Never seen something like this.
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Old 09-30-2010   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robklurfield View Post
... hard sun. most of these were shot with a CV 15/4.5 wide open or near to it.
This is the reason for vignetting.
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Old 09-30-2010   #14
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rob
just for additional info re slow hi-res films, you might want to visit the erwin puts site here: http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/Film/page32.html he tries several, and provides a good quick review.
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Old 09-30-2010   #15
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Hi Rick. Thanks. I've not shot with anything slow or hi-res in 25+ years, so I will definitely check out what Irwin has to say. After using lots of Neopan 400 and 1600, this is a different species.

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rob
just for additional info re slow hi-res films, you might want to visit the erwin puts site here: http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/Film/page32.html he tries several, and provides a good quick review.
greetings from hamburg
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Old 09-30-2010   #16
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That's some serious contrast there Rob!

I've used a bit of Adox CHS 100 and while I like it I do find it hard to master my developing regime to suit the emulsion ... and I haven't nailed it yet. The results have been pretty indifferent and I'm nearly out of it so that will probably be it for me.

I think I'll stick to Pan F+ .. it's been much kinder to me!
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Old 09-30-2010   #17
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then obviously 15mm f4.5 is not a good partner for this film...I would love to try this with my 45mm contax at f2...resolution is amazing, if the contrast was ok I would be able to almost read the cross-word the guy is solving on the beach
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Old 09-30-2010   #18
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agreed re the 15/4.5.

I haven't done any post-processing yet, so let's see if re-washing these rolls, rescanning and little tweaking of the levels helps at all.

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Originally Posted by LeicaFoReVer View Post
then obviously 15mm f4.5 is not a good partner for this film...I would love to try this with my 45mm contax at f2...resolution is amazing, if the contrast was ok I would be able to almost read the cross-word the guy is solving on the beach
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Old 09-30-2010   #19
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Rob,

What developer are you using? I use the recommended Adotech Adolux and I don't get such high contrast. However, I do find that this film scratches quite easily and also attracts dust like nothing I've ever seen. I use distilled water throughout the development process but I still have to do quite a bit of spotting.

Here's some samples with various lenses.

35f2 Summicron ASPH:

Rio Mondego, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr

24f2.8 Elmarit ASPH:

A Serenade, Coimbra-style by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr

50f1.4 Summilux ASPH:

Restaurante Democrática's Menu, Rua da Sofia, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr

35f2.8 Summaron:

From my office by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr
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Old 09-30-2010   #20
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Nando, I'm using the Adolux. This film sure does scratch easily and it is dust magnet.
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Old 09-30-2010   #21
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same roll. haven't re-rinsed these.
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Old 09-30-2010   #22
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Old 09-30-2010   #23
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Old 09-30-2010   #24
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Old 09-30-2010   #25
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Old 09-30-2010   #26
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how about using rinsing agent? Would that help?
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Old 09-30-2010   #27
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LeicaForever, I used a dash of photoflow at the beginning of my initial rinse. then about 10 minutes with a continuous flow of tap water through a Jobo hose.
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Old 09-30-2010   #28
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any suggestions about controlling the contrast?

was the issue more due to my exposures when I shot? choice of lens? or, my processing?

this one is after a bit of tweaking the levels...
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Old 09-30-2010   #29
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How are you scanning these? I have a strong suspicion that it's your scanning technique and not the film. Those areas that are pure white in your scan most likely have much more detail on the negative.
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Old 09-30-2010   #30
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bensyverson, I'm open to ideas.

Let's see. I'm using a Epson V700 and its own software. Scanned at 4800 dpi. with unsharp mask on. 16-bit grayscale. what else would you like to know? my workflow is simple and sloppy. I'll take any suggestions I can get, so thanks for whatever you can offer.
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Old 09-30-2010   #31
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if you have SilverFast, I received better results with it (and even better results when i use VueScan, as I do now). i scan as .DNG files, I scan them with no adjustments, just straight scans - no adjusting the levels. the scans are very flat, I open in Adobe PS and process as RAW files (even then, all i do it set black and white points) and the images closely resemble how my prints come out. It's not that 'simple' but it works, I then save these as TIFFs and trash the DNG files.

Oh, and I scan as 48bit RGB files then convert to Grayscale in post.
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Old 09-30-2010   #32
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The Adox films are nice but have very delicate emulsion. I've been using ATM49, which I think they're renaming Atomal (the old Agfa developer).
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Old 09-30-2010   #33
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Are you using the autoexposure? It's best to turn that off and adjust the levels manually to encompass the contrast range of each shot. I'll take a few screenshots next time I scan!
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Old 09-30-2010   #34
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The scanning was also my first thought. However the shots that you posted later aren't as contrasty.

I use a Nikon Coolscan V with Vuescan. In Vuesccan set it at the maximum resolution of 4000dpi and save it as a 16-bit B&W TIFF file. All options are turned off - no automatic corrections. The scan is very flat at this point. Then I open up the file in Photoshop and do all my adjustments there.
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Old 09-30-2010   #35
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trying that right now. thanks for the tip. of course, this means I'll have to be more attentive to my work flow, but this film sure seems like it's worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by bensyverson View Post
Are you using the autoexposure? It's best to turn that off and adjust the levels manually to encompass the contrast range of each shot. I'll take a few screenshots next time I scan!
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Old 09-30-2010   #36
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Adox CMS 20 is one of my favourite films, as there is no other film that gives you the same black and grey range. Without exception I try to shoot it with a fast lens wide open....this film will suck detail out of f2 and faster like no other. The film is notorious for being curly, a dust magnet and very susceptible to scratching; otherwise it is fantastic ;p

Note the wild greys in the OOF areas despite the high contrast:


dreaming of a memory by thomasw_, on Flickr

This shot shows the range of blackness in a very challenging light with such a slow film -->


Ballet light by thomasw_, on Flickr
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Old 09-30-2010   #37
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thomas, beautiful shots, both of them, especially that second one. appreciate the tips. gives me something to look forward to if I can tame this beast. my scanning workflow/technique sucks -- quick and dirty. I'll need to get serious about it with this film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasw_ View Post
Adox CMS 20 is one of my favourite films, as there is no other film that gives you the same black and grey range. Without exception I try to shoot it with a fast lens wide open....this film will suck detail out of f2 and faster like no other. The film is notorious for being curly, a dust magnet and very susceptible to scratching; otherwise it is fantastic ;p

Note the wild greys in the OOF areas despite the high contrast:


dreaming of a memory by thomasw_, on Flickr

This shot shows the range of blackness in a very challenging light with such a slow film -->


Ballet light by thomasw_, on Flickr
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Old 09-30-2010   #38
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Everyone, thanks for all the tips and please feel free to keep them coming.

Do any of you use Aperture? Does the film demand something with more flexibility?

I've never used SilverFast and I rarely use PSE. I'm used to trying to get what I want straight out of the camera and the soup and this film seems to demand much more than I'm accustomed to doing (not necessarily a bad thing).

Thanks all! All ideas very much appreciated by me.
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Old 09-30-2010   #39
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severely underexposed, then heavily tweaked in Aperture, dialing up the shadows as far as the slider will go (not my usual process). and, yet there's still an incredible level of detail hidden here. what a damned dust magnet this film is.

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Old 09-30-2010   #40
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double negative, thanks. I'll try 3200 dpi next roll.
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