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Shortest 50mm f2 (or faster) rigid lens?
Old 10-01-2019   #1
analogpics
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Shortest 50mm f2 (or faster) rigid lens?

Hey guys! So i was curious to see, I want a super compact 50mm to basically leave on my M4 (most of the time at least) as a daily driver. I have the 50 collapsible summicron, which has been great in it's own right. Really pretty rendering, and because it collapses, very portable bit of kit. However, the ergonomics (long focus throw/min focus is at a really awkward location, collapsible, and also 1 m min focus) kinda make me pick other 50s.

So, it's not a big deal, since i have the 50mm summarit 2.5 as well, but was just curious if there's something really short/compact, rigid, "normal" focus throw, and f2 or faster. I was wearing the kodak retina iiic for almost a year straight. I do love that camera, but wanted to try an m body as my daily camera for a bit.

Friend recommended the 50mm zm sonnar, but tbh, the focus shift does scare me away. Was looking at the canon/nikon recommendations from another thread here, but i think they all have a really long focus throw.

Maybe getting a type 3-5 summicron, or getting the 50mm zm planar again is going to be my best bet, but wanted to just throw it out there and see if you guys had any other (possibly cheaper) options. Thanks!
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Old 10-01-2019   #2
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There is a heavy Summicron 50mm version 4 in chrome, German made. No built-in hood, supersmooth focusing movement, 0.7m closest distance. Rare, but worth looking for.


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Old 10-01-2019   #3
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Summarit-M 50 2.5 is more compact than any 50 ZM or any non collapsible 50 Cron.
Maybe Color-Skopar 50 2.5 is smaller than Summarit-M.
You are not going to find Canonikons with modern focus and shorter MFD.
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Old 10-01-2019   #4
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The Nikkor-H.C 5cm f/2 LTM is very compact (but dense). ~34mm in length, with a 40.5mm filter thread. But it does have quite a long focus throw of about 180-degrees. There's an additional close-focus range down to 0.45m/1.5 feet, but it's not rangefinder coupled in the close-focus range so a little less usable on a M4.
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review...h-50mm-2-0-rf/

There's an image sample thread here on the forum:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...ad.php?t=90034
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Old 10-01-2019   #5
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Yes, the Color-Skopar - not Color-Sropar - is smaller, but is not an f/2 lens.


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Old 10-01-2019   #6
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Perhaps the Topcor-S 5cm f/2? This thread mentions (Post #14) that the focus throw is around 90-degrees. ~41mm in length, also with a 40.5mm filter thread:
https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postid=2616595
https://legacycamera.wordpress.com/2...-thread-mount/
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Old 10-01-2019   #7
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Hi Erik, I have the opportunity to buy one of these chrome v4’s.

What do you think is a fair price in Euros?

Thanks for the input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
There is a heavy Summicron 50mm version 4 in chrome, German made. No built-in hood, supersmooth focusing movement, 0.7m closest distance. Rare, but worth looking for.


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Old 10-01-2019   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Summarit-M 50 2.5 is more compact than any 50 ZM or any non collapsible 50 Cron.
Maybe Color-Skopar 50 2.5 is smaller than Summarit-M.
You are not going to find Canonikons with modern focus and shorter MFD.
Agreed....but 2.5. I would think version 3 Summicron at F2.
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Old 10-01-2019   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Agreed....but 2.5. I would think version 3 Summicron at F2.
I'm confused with those versions.
1 is Collapsible.
2. is Rigid.
3. is one I have now, very long focus throw and not small lens.
4. is Canadian/German, smallest with plastic parts.
5. is the current.

But somehow 2 and 3 are getting mixed.
Anyway, none of them are small lenses. And they do focus shift.
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Old 10-01-2019   #10
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I think the only way to get a shorter 50mm lens that is as fast as you like is to use a Schneider Xenon in an uncoupled barrel from an Adox Adrette or Wirgin Edinex. You'll be scale focusing but they are compact and in leaf shutters. Once you introduce the RF coupled helicoid, the lens gets significantly larger.
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Old 10-01-2019   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I'm confused with those versions.
1 is Collapsible.
2. is Rigid.
3. is one I have now, very long focus throw and not small lens.
4. is Canadian/German, smallest with plastic parts.
5. is the current.

But somehow 2 and 3 are getting mixed.
Anyway, none of them are small lenses. And they do focus shift.
Regardless of your opinions about the man, Ken Rockwell actually has a pretty good summary table of the 50mm Summicron versions:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50...ison-table.htm

Seems all of them have a 39mm filter, making them pretty small at least on that dimension. OP might have to decide what constitutes "short/compact". I believe the current (non-APO) production version is 43.5mm in length:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...n_M.html/specs
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Old 10-01-2019   #12
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I love the ZM Sonnar. The focus shift doesn’t bother me. Learn to work with it and it is fantastic and versatile and compact. 1.5-f2 for low light or shallow DOF, f5.6 and smaller for use as a standard lens. I would bet that most people’s focus is farther off than the lens itself in most cases. On film you likely won’t even notice. On digital just use as described above. I do use the Color Skopar 50mm when I want to go REALLY small though.
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Old 10-01-2019   #13
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Another option that is very small is the Chiyoda Kogaku rokkor 50mm 1.8. Sharp, rigid, contrasty, small, and maybe 300$ish for a clean copy.
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Old 10-01-2019   #14
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For the OP, the Zeiss ZM Sonnar has a M46 front filter thread, and is 45mm in length without the lens cap:
https://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/...0-zm.html#data
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Old 10-01-2019   #15
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What about the Sonnetar 50mm f1.1 from Miyazaki San.
Small, ultra fast, 0.8m min. focus.
Don’t know if’s easy to get...???
https://www.thephoblographer.com/201...1-for-leica-m/
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Old 10-01-2019   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dourbalistar View Post
Regardless of your opinions about the man, Ken Rockwell actually has a pretty good summary table of the 50mm Summicron versions:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50...ison-table.htm

Seems all of them have a 39mm filter, making them pretty small at least on that dimension. OP might have to decide what constitutes "short/compact". I believe the current (non-APO) production version is 43.5mm in length:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...n_M.html/specs
It was my guidance. I went from Typ 1, to typ 2, then 4 and now 3.
Prior to this I had Summitar, Summar and Summarit
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Old 10-01-2019   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhead View Post
Hi Erik, I have the opportunity to buy one of these chrome v4’s.

What do you think is a fair price in Euros?

Thanks for the input.

Depends on the condition and if there are boxes etc. EUR 1.500/2.000. Very rare lens. I have one. A great shooter. Often seen on presentation Leica's M6.


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Old 10-01-2019   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogpics View Post
Hey guys! So i was curious to see, I want a super compact 50mm to basically leave on my M4 (most of the time at least) as a daily driver. I have the 50 collapsible summicron, which has been great in it's own right. Really pretty rendering, and because it collapses, very portable bit of kit. However, the ergonomics (long focus throw/min focus is at a really awkward location, collapsible, and also 1 m min focus) kinda make me pick other 50s.

So, it's not a big deal, since i have the 50mm summarit 2.5 as well, but was just curious if there's something really short/compact, rigid, "normal" focus throw, and f2 or faster. I was wearing the kodak retina iiic for almost a year straight. I do love that camera, but wanted to try an m body as my daily camera for a bit.

Friend recommended the 50mm zm sonnar, but tbh, the focus shift does scare me away. Was looking at the canon/nikon recommendations from another thread here, but i think they all have a really long focus throw.

Maybe getting a type 3-5 summicron, or getting the 50mm zm planar again is going to be my best bet, but wanted to just throw it out there and see if you guys had any other (possibly cheaper) options. Thanks!

You already have a bunch of 50mm lenses. So.......
I have a 7A 35 f2 'permanently' attached to my M4-2 as it is my beater Leica. Tiny lens, super cheap, very nice.

Think about it, you already have lots of 50s, why not mix it up?
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Old 10-01-2019   #19
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As Huss suggested Leitz rigid 50s aren't particularly short. Yes to 35s.... Summicrons or Summarons.... or a 40mm f2 (really small). Although 2.5, not f2 The Voigtlander 50mm 2.5 is small. Like the saying goes You can have small or fast or 50...but not all
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Old 10-01-2019   #20
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Thanks, and for replying so quickly. I will look at the lens in the next few days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Depends on the condition and if there are boxes etc. EUR 1.500/2.000. Very rare lens. I have one. A great shooter. Often seen on presentation Leica's M6.


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Old 10-01-2019   #21
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I recommend the Voigtlander 50mm f/2 Heliar collapsible. It might not be rigid, but the focus throw is shorter than the collapsible Summicron. Only 90° to go from infinity to 1.2m.

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Old 10-02-2019   #22
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Thanks for the replies everybody! I'm going to have to take a deeper look at some of these options Topcor looks pretty intriguing! I did consider the color skopar 50 for a while tbh, but I ended up with the 50 2.5 summarit.

Huss, i actually do have that 7artisans 35mm f2 which i've used a lot recently. Crackin little lens! Obviously not the quality of my 35 cron asph, but i kinda prefer it for every day snaps (especially walking around late at night :P). I have a lot more 35s than 50s tbh

Aizan i am kinda tempted to get the 50 heliar again, though i won't be able to snap one up for the $450 i sold mine for a few years back hehe.
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Old 10-02-2019   #23
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I have only the 50mm Collapsible-Summicron,non-radioactive version.
I unlike many love the "collapsible" feature.
I like the images it makes,not so happy with flare or 1 m close..
A delicate lens but mine pristine!
Have owned the DF Summicron, the Summilux early.
One can only expose one lens at a given moment!
Oh! On my then new M3 1967, so for me a "keeper"..
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Old 10-02-2019   #24
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I went through a similar decision last year. I just needed a short/light/fast-ish 50, so I went through the list of options.

I have already a Jupiter 8 -- like all Sonnars and their clones it is very compact for a 50 and I quite like the typical for a Sonnar imaging. However the focus throw is rather long and it does not lend itself well for fast shooting unless you use it in a closed-down, scale-focusing manner. I believe the same is true for all vintage Sonnar clones.

Then I borrowed the Color Skopar 50/2.5. It's very, very compact, and although people say it's got a boring fingerprint, I found it contrasty and easy to deal with. However, f/2.5 was a bit limiting. Come dusk the lens is somewhat slow for useable speeds.

That brought me to the Summicrons. I considered version III, IV, and V and even the updated rigid Summicron 50. Of these, the most appealing solution seemed to be the tabbed version IV (the one with the separate hood). It's quite short and light (for a Summicron) and with the hood reversed quite easily stowed in a small bag, although not in a coat pocket. (For that, I got a Summicron 40 but that's another story.) The imaging is pretty similar to the most recent pre-asph Summicron 50. Since the primary use I intended the lens was for colour I checked a bazillion online photos and it seemed to be a good lens for that. There are known problems with flaring but using the hood takes care of that, mostly. Version III seemed very appealing too in terms of handling but I somehow liked the increased contrast of the later IV version, esp. for colour, like I said.

At the time I didn't consider the Heliar 50/2, mostly because I was under the impression that it was somewhat softish wide open. But I could be wrong.
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Old 10-02-2019   #25
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The Heliar is absolutely not softish, but it's character is what I would call "over corrected". Like many other modern Voigtländer lenses it is so much corrected that not much character of it's own is left. I find the Color-Skopar 50mm nicer.

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Old 10-02-2019   #26
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I don't mind over-corrected. Perhaps I should have considered it. Not that you can find it any time you want in the wild. But if you wait they do come up.
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Old 10-02-2019   #27
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I have a black one, but I hate the bayonet on the front (for mounting the shade), so I do not use it much.

Leica M2, Voigtländer Heliar 50mm f/2, 400-2TMY/Adox MCC 110.

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Old 10-02-2019   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deardorff38 View Post
As Huss suggested Leitz rigid 50s aren't particularly short. Yes to 35s.... Summicrons or Summarons.... or a 40mm f2 (really small). Although 2.5, not f2 The Voigtlander 50mm 2.5 is small. Like the saying goes You can have small or fast or 50...but not all

Good point about the 40mm f2 Summicron! It is tiny and excellent!
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Old 10-02-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I'm confused with those versions.
1 is Collapsible.
2. is Rigid.
3. is one I have now, very long focus throw and not small lens.
4. is Canadian/German, smallest with plastic parts.
5. is the current.

But somehow 2 and 3 are getting mixed.
Anyway, none of them are small lenses. And they do focus shift.
I had the V3 and it might not be Summarit 2.5 small, but it is smaller than the Planar. And I never saw any focus shift and I used it on digital.
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Old 10-02-2019   #30
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Canon 50/1.8, if you can get one haze-free. High performing and smaller than any of the Summicrons.
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Old 10-02-2019   #31
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What is the best identifier of a Version 4 in chrome Summicron? Is it the years during which such lenses were made?
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Old 10-02-2019   #32
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Canon 50/1.8, if you can get one haze-free. High performing and smaller than any of the Summicrons.
But with a huge and slow focus throw...

On a side note...

Just some comparison photos:





The Planar and Sonnar are actually smaller than the Summicron so I was wrong...
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Old 10-02-2019   #33
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But with a huge and slow focus throw...

On a side note...

Just some comparison photos:





The Planar and Sonnar are actually smaller than the Summicron so I was wrong...
The focus throw if the 2nd version is very reasonable, at least for me.
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Old 10-02-2019   #34
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While not fully f/2, the Canon 50/2.2 is maybe the smallest rigid 50 out there. At f/2.2, I pretty much think of it as an f/2 lens. It's hard to find, but is a great little lens.
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=165466
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Old 10-02-2019   #35
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Long ago I saw a photo of a 50mm f2.0 Elcan lens that was quite compact. Does this lens really exist or is it an old, inaccurate memory. Joe
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Old 10-02-2019   #36
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The focus throw if the 2nd version is very reasonable, at least for me.
Ah ok, I didn't know... I remember the 1.8 having like a 180 degree focus throw. I prefer something like 90 degrees.
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Old 10-02-2019   #37
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Quote:
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What is the best identifier of a Version 4 in chrome Summicron? Is it the years during which such lenses were made?

Raid, the numbers are around 3593xxx.







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Old 10-02-2019   #38
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Long ago I saw a photo of a 50mm f2.0 Elcan lens that was quite compact. Does this lens really exist or is it an old, inaccurate memory. Joe
You're right, but it's a rare & pricey lens: (There's another set for $10k...but the Setadel photos are better)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-LEITZ...MAAOSwfMRcvfFQ
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Old 10-02-2019   #39
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Raid, the numbers are around 3593xxxx.







Erik.
Thank you, Erik. I just love the Summicron 50 lenses.
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Old 10-02-2019   #40
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I think there's a seller out here that has the canon 50 1.8...i may have to go visit him and see what i think. If there's no tab, and the focus ring moves smoothly, i don't mind a longer throw as much.

Yeah, i really wanted to try that 50 elcan, but they're definitely $$$
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