M10M 41-42 MP sensor rumor
Old 08-28-2019   #1
Calzone
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M10M 41-42 MP sensor rumor

Leica Rumors spammed me with an updated rumor M10M will have a 41-42 MP sensor.

How crazy is that. No Bayer filter array and mucho pixels. Another step towards medium format IQ.

How big do you want to print?

Cal
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Old 08-28-2019   #2
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Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
... No Bayer filter array...
Cal

That's finally the MM10 I take it?
It will just make the files so big, I would need to upgrade my computer and workflow.
Roughly 2.5x the resolution than the MM9. No one really needs that.
Do I want one?
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Old 08-28-2019   #3
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That's finally the MM10 I take it?
It will just make the files so big, I would need to upgrade my computer and workflow.
Roughly 2.5x the resolution than the MM9. No one really needs that.
Do I want one?
Klaus,

Crazy is good.

Where are the haters? LOL.

BTW I'm going on some luxury cruise in early December as a "Plus-One" (meaning guest) for a "Maggie" gig. Eight days that is a river cruise that begins in Germany and ends up in Switzerland.

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Old 08-29-2019   #4
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So Cal, you will get one?
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Old 08-29-2019   #5
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Looks like they are playing catch up with their Q2 (47.3 million pixels).

It would make sense to do so from a marketing perspective. In fact they probably do not have much choice as some cameras made by Leica's competitors are already looking at 50 million pixels in the rear view mirror. In that situation it rapidly becomes hard to ask what Leica asks for a camera body when the the rest of the market (including some of Leica's own cameras) are already out in front. Still I think as someone else here has said I would need to upgrade my PC hardware to cope.
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Old 08-29-2019   #6
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So Cal, you will get one?
John,

Maybe...

But for me it would be better to have a SL2-M. I have all this legacy SLR glass that works great on digital like the Noct-Nikkor and the 50 Lux-R "E60." Unlike other glass these lenses work great on digital cameras.

Another reason for the SL2-M is that I love-love the 50 Lux-SL "Monster." It crushes the 50 Lux-M ASPH I had in rendering. The bokeh and OOF are so much smoother than the M-lense which can be overly "biting" at times.

Then there are the SL APO primes. They just came out with a 50 Cron-SL, and Jono Slack compared the APO 50 Cron-M against the APO 50 Cron-SL. The SL lens won in that shootout.

Leica will be extending the APO technology to all the "Crons," even the wides. How crazy is that? Clear to me that if you print big that the SL, SL2, SL2-M is the way to go if you want to print mucho big/huge.

For most thought I think the resolution, IQ, and added detail that is a huge step towards medium format won't be utilized. Not everyone prints, cell phone images look great on the Internet, and even people that print how many print for exhibition and print large.

For many the M10M is just overkill.

Klaus makes a point that the files will be huge, but the SL2-M would be my ultimate camera. Interesting that the M10 is only 24 MP. If the rumor is true that the M10M will have a 41-42 MP sensor it kinda is a game changer. A very serious B&W only camera.

Where are the haters? LOL.

Also know that I won't sell my SL if I get a SL2, and if eventually if Leica creates/makes a SL2-M I'll keep all three. To me it is clear if I want the best glass the L-mount is the way to go.

Also know that a Noct-Nikkor, a 50 Lux "E60" or 50 Lux-SL on the CL is a remarkable portrait machine.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #7
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Although I do not need so many MP it's nice to see Leica to improve the technical side of the offer. No one is forced to buy but who could benefit from it can!
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Old 08-29-2019   #8
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Originally Posted by peterm1 View Post
Looks like they are playing catch up with their Q2 (47.3 million pixels).

It would make sense to do so from a marketing perspective. In fact they probably do not have much choice as some cameras made by Leica's competitors are already looking at 50 million pixels in the rear view mirror. In that situation it rapidly becomes hard to ask what Leica asks for a camera body when the the rest of the market (including some of Leica's own cameras) are already out in front. Still I think as someone else here has said I would need to upgrade my PC hardware to cope.
Peter,

That was our friend Klaus who mentioned the crazy file sizes and resolution on above.

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Old 08-29-2019   #9
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Although I do not need so many MP it's nice to see Leica to improve the technical side of the offer. No one is forced to buy but who could benefit from it can!
Robert,

I can see using the 23 Cron L-mount to have a very capable street shooter that is made for a cropped sensor. Although not 41-42 MP as rummored I would still exceed 24 MP, have 35 mm FOV, and have autofocus.

This would make an SL2 a very fast shooter and not so big. I already own the 23 Cron that I use on a CL.

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Old 08-29-2019   #10
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I am thinking that even though so many MP can be slowing me down for PP, it is like driving a sports car that can go max 200mph, but the speed limit is 70mph. A German friend once asked me why Americans buy MB sports cars when they cannot really enjoy driving their cars at the top speeds. ".... because they want to". Another option would be to get the SL (not the SL2) and to use remaining funds to get a super lens maybe.
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Old 08-29-2019   #11
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Klaus,

Crazy is good.

Where are the haters? LOL.

BTW I'm going on some luxury cruise in early December as a "Plus-One" (meaning guest) for a "Maggie" gig. Eight days that is a river cruise that begins in Germany and ends up in Switzerland.

Cal
Good for you, Cal. I have a friend who would tell me something like "I could accompany you and carry all your luggage" if I had such good luck!
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Old 08-29-2019   #12
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John,

Maybe...

But for me it would be better to have a SL2-M. I have all this legacy SLR glass that works great on digital like the Noct-Nikkor and the 50 Lux-R "E60." Unlike other glass these lenses work great on digital cameras.

Another reason for the SL2-M is that I love-love the 50 Lux-SL "Monster." It crushes the 50 Lux-M ASPH I had in rendering. The bokeh and OOF are so much smoother than the M-lense which can be overly "biting" at times.

Then there are the SL APO primes. They just came out with a 50 Cron-SL, and Jono Slack compared the APO 50 Cron-M against the APO 50 Cron-SL. The SL lens won in that shootout.

Leica will be extending the APO technology to all the "Crons," even the wides. How crazy is that? Clear to me that if you print big that the SL, SL2, SL2-M is the way to go if you want to print mucho big/huge.

For most thought I think the resolution, IQ, and added detail that is a huge step towards medium format won't be utilized. Not everyone prints, cell phone images look great on the Internet, and even people that print how many print for exhibition and print large.

For many the M10M is just overkill.

Klaus makes a point that the files will be huge, but the SL2-M would be my ultimate camera. Interesting that the M10 is only 24 MP. If the rumor is true that the M10M will have a 41-42 MP sensor it kinda is a game changer. A very serious B&W only camera.

Where are the haters? LOL.

Also know that I won't sell my SL if I get a SL2, and if eventually if Leica creates/makes a SL2-M I'll keep all three. To me it is clear if I want the best glass the L-mount is the way to go.

Also know that a Noct-Nikkor, a 50 Lux "E60" or 50 Lux-SL on the CL is a remarkable portrait machine.

Cal
If people rush to buy the M10M, then maybe the cost for getting a used M10 will drop considerably? Hopefully
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Old 08-29-2019   #13
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When a 5 year old Nikon D750 that you can buy new right now for $1500 has a better sensor than the current $7300 Leica M10, well, Leica buyers deserve better.
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Old 08-29-2019   #14
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If people rush to buy the M10M, then maybe the cost for getting a used M10 will drop considerably? Hopefully
From your fingers to G-ds ears!

And then the M9....

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Old 08-29-2019   #15
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I am thinking that even though so many MP can be slowing me down for PP, it is like driving a sports car that can go max 200mph, but the speed limit is 70mph. A German friend once asked me why Americans buy MB sports cars when they cannot really enjoy driving their cars at the top speeds. ".... because they want to". Another option would be to get the SL (not the SL2) and to use remaining funds to get a super lens maybe.
Raid,

When I was a new driver my first car was a Volvo 122S. Its top speed was 100 mph. I know this for a fact since I wanted to know.

Also I had a 1984 Jeep Scrambler that had a speedometer that only went to 85 MPH. I had oversized tires so when I maxed out that 258 cubic inch inline six I was actually doing 100 MPH which was the maximum speed.

I have friends who autocross so performance is important to them.

Also a friend had a client who had a Porshe 911 Turbo convertable wide body in triple black (black paint, black top, black interior). The owner threw us the keys so we could do about a weeks worth of driving in about 45 minutes to see what it is like to put a Porshe threw its paces.

Top speed was 135 through traffic. We went from Babylon, Islip, Bayshore, Islip Babylon testing the rev limiter that prevents you from blowing up the engine.

The clover leaf we figured out was best approached in Bayshore for the turnaround was in third gear where our top speed was 90 MPH coming out of a turn. My friend Steve, a big guy, was using all his upper body strength to steer the car as we likely were approaching one-G.

Coming into Babylon Town Hall we were doing 135 MPH through traffic. Steve said hold on, and then he tested the ABS brakes which were a new development at that time.

Understand that a Jeep at 100 MPH is barely on the ground and is more like a hovercraft, and a Porshe used as intended is really about physics and more like flying than driving.

When I did the sustained 100 MPH it was out west where there was no other vehicles in a deserted area. While the joy ride in the highway in the suburbs of Long Island the driving required skill, I would not deem reckless because the envelope of control the Porshe offered was so great.

There are always enthused individuals who will fully utilize performance.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #16
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Good for you, Cal. I have a friend who would tell me something like "I could accompany you and carry all your luggage" if I had such good luck!
Raid,

Pretty much I'm "Maggie's" entourage, and surely I'll be carrying her luggage.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #17
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Cal,
You live a risky lifestyle!

It is spelled Porsche .... It is pronounced "Porsha" In the US, people use "Porsh".
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Old 08-29-2019   #18
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I like the spelling Portia..
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Old 08-29-2019   #19
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Cal,
You live a risky lifestyle!

It is spelled Porsche .... It is pronounced "Porsha" In the US, people use "Porsh".
Raid,

I still have that 70"s attitude. Back then we lived like there was no tomorrow. We did a lot of dumb things. Somehow I became old...

I have had an exciting life. My only two regrets: not using sunscreen; and having been a cigarette smoker for 15 years.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #20
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John,

Maybe...

But for me it would be better to have a SL2-M. I have all this legacy SLR glass that works great on digital like the Noct-Nikkor and the 50 Lux-R "E60." Unlike other glass these lenses work great on digital cameras.

Another reason for the SL2-M is that I love-love the 50 Lux-SL "Monster." It crushes the 50 Lux-M ASPH I had in rendering. The bokeh and OOF are so much smoother than the M-lense which can be overly "biting" at times.

Then there are the SL APO primes. They just came out with a 50 Cron-SL, and Jono Slack compared the APO 50 Cron-M against the APO 50 Cron-SL. The SL lens won in that shootout.

Leica will be extending the APO technology to all the "Crons," even the wides. How crazy is that? Clear to me that if you print big that the SL, SL2, SL2-M is the way to go if you want to print mucho big/huge.

For most thought I think the resolution, IQ, and added detail that is a huge step towards medium format won't be utilized. Not everyone prints, cell phone images look great on the Internet, and even people that print how many print for exhibition and print large.

For many the M10M is just overkill.

Klaus makes a point that the files will be huge, but the SL2-M would be my ultimate camera. Interesting that the M10 is only 24 MP. If the rumor is true that the M10M will have a 41-42 MP sensor it kinda is a game changer. A very serious B&W only camera.

Where are the haters? LOL.

Also know that I won't sell my SL if I get a SL2, and if eventually if Leica creates/makes a SL2-M I'll keep all three. To me it is clear if I want the best glass the L-mount is the way to go.

Also know that a Noct-Nikkor, a 50 Lux "E60" or 50 Lux-SL on the CL is a remarkable portrait machine.

Cal
Iím not sure if there will ever be an SL monochrome... has there been a rumor even?

Regarding the size of files, I hear this a lot. If your computer is really old maybe it could struggle, but Iíve been processing 42mp files on a 3 year old laptop and it doesnít even blink. No difference between the 24mp and 42mp files that I can tell when processing. Of course they take up more space, but thatís the only real difference I can see.
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Old 08-29-2019   #21
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When a 5 year old Nikon D750 that you can buy new right now for $1500 has a better sensor than the current $7300 Leica M10, well, Leica buyers deserve better.
We both know that Leica M users do not buy Leica Ms for the latest in sensor tech. Also, there is no D750 monochrome direct from Nikon. Finally, not many cameras have surpassed the D750 sensor... this is not a Leica only problem.
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Old 08-29-2019   #22
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I used to own a 1960 Volvo P1800...
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Old 08-29-2019   #23
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Iím not sure if there will ever be an SL monochrome... has there been a rumor even?

Regarding the size of files, I hear this a lot. If your computer is really old maybe it could struggle, but Iíve been processing 42mp files on a 3 year old laptop and it doesnít even blink. No difference between the 24mp and 42mp files that I can tell when processing. Of course they take up more space, but thatís the only real difference I can see.
John,

The only one talking about a SLM or SL2-M is me. I'm not sure it is in Leica's planning, but if they made one it would be great for me. Anyways it would be a very serious camera. Not for everyone, but for some a dream come true. Perhaps Leica is lurking on this thread... Ha-Ha.

Maybe make it a "Calzone" version. LOL. In December I'll be in Germany doing that luxury cruise with "Maggie." BTW Leica is one of her followers. Perhaps I might run into Peter Karbe... LOL. I know I'm being a bit of a dillusional artist, but Leica making a M-Monochrome 6 years ago was kinda crazy. Now a M10M is rumored to be released soon.

The APO-SL Crons are a big deal for IQ. A SL2-M would be unreal IQ for B&W.

BTW I suspect that the "Monster" 50 Lux-SL uses APO advances. It lists special glass, but isn't marketed as APO like the Crons. What goes unsaid by many is the great rendering, but it surely is a "Porker."

That's good news that my old Mac powerbook that was fully loaded from 5-6 years ago might have legs. Great to be cheap-cheap-cheap. I often wondered about this. Perhaps if you are using extensive masking in Photoshop in one's post processing the huge file size becomes an issue.

I know when "Mike the skinny hipster" borrowed a Leica "S" three lens kit from Leica for a shoot he said the file size was an issue. Mike had "Max" his retoucher post process the hell out of these images. These images are published in the latest issue of Leica Fotographica Internacional and Leica "S" magazine. This heavy processing I do not do. Also I lack the skills. Max utilized heavy masking.

Way back when I went to a workshop at the Leica Store in SoHo that involved using Leica "S" glass via an adapter on an SL. I wondered why anyone would ever do that. There is a 100/2.0 "S" lens, and John Kreider the Leica technical specialist showed me zoomed in on the skin tone on the corner of one of my eyes. A world of detail that exceeds my native SL glass. It was really impressive how close to medium format IQ it was.

This was evident on a screen of a teathered laptop and not on a calibrated monitor.

My guess is because I print big that my eyes got trained to see and notice the IQ. You have said that the best tool for a photographer is a "trained eye."

BTW this Leica 3 lens "S" kit is basically in the possession of a Leica sponsored artist, that has the stipulation of lending it out when directed by Leica. "Mike the skinny hipster" mentioned that he simply knocked on the door of an address on the Lower Eastside, a guy open the door, and then handed him a loaded Pelican case without exchanging a word like some 1970's drug deal from back in the day.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #24
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I used to own a 1960 Volvo P1800...
Didnt go very fast..but it was fun to drive..and what a looker..
Emile,

My Volvo 122S had the same B18D engine as your P1800 that was featured in the series "The Saint."

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Old 08-29-2019   #25
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Raid,

I still have that 70"s attitude. Back then we lived like there was no tomorrow. We did a lot of dumb things. Somehow I became old...

I have had an exciting life. My only two regrets: not using sunscreen; and having been a cigarette smoker for 15 years.

Cal
Watching out for such risk factors has become more discussed in recent years, as you know, Cal. Stay healthy.
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Old 08-29-2019   #26
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How big do you want to print?

Cal
who has walls big enough for images that big!
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Old 08-29-2019   #27
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who has walls big enough for images that big!
FT,

I wonder since your interest is in making digital negatives is the added resolution overkill in your case?

I also wonder is how big is big and how to define it. For me I like nosing into a print where I don't see any pixelating or fuzziness as per large format.

As an example I cite the Salgado print from "Genesis" I saw in Chelsea that was matted and framed without glass. I was able to nose into a large format print that was expertly performed.

Also consider at some point the barrier between film and digital gets crossed.

Salgado's "Genesis" exhibition made that distinction somewhat very hard to tell.

Only because I print big I could make out the digital image capture via the enhanced shadow detail, and the film image capture had the smoother rolloff in the highlights.

Granted that Salgado had the best lab in Paris, and that the wet prints were made from 4x5 digital negatives.

I would think that the enhanced resolution would serve contact printing large prints in say limited editions using current Piezography.

I would also think that these advances in both Piezography Digital Negatives for contact printing and the enhanced overkill in resolution and IQ makes the availability of approaching or even matching Salgado's results without having the best lab in Paris printing for us.

Basically even a guy like me can do a "Salgado" using turnkey systems at home. To me this is a big deal. The heavy lifting has been done for us by both Jon Cone and Leica. For B&W only printing a dream has become reality.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #28
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Watching out for such risk factors has become more discussed in recent years, as you know, Cal. Stay healthy.
Raid,

I'm taking very good care of myself now. I quit smoking decades ago, and I still look young. Today I'm 153 pounds and that is within 2 pounds of the median BMI for my height. I remain muscular.

Never thought I would live this long, but now it seems I likely could live past 100 if I have enough money to do so.

Cal
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Old 08-29-2019   #29
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Good for you! I wish I were as healthy as you are.
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Old 08-29-2019   #30
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I’m not sure why MF IQ has to be measured in MP only.
Nine of the digital M has decent DR of even 135 format.
Or is it about digital MF; which is crop of real MF
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Old 08-29-2019   #31
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I used to own a 1960 Volvo P1800...
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I like to use a pepper grinder with a hand crank. Not the type with the knob. It may seem more awkward but it produces are far more satisfying grind.
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Old 08-29-2019   #32
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FT,

I wonder since your interest is in making digital negatives is the added resolution overkill in your case?

. . .
Cal
I'm still looking at my walls, going, 24" x 24" print, now add 6-10" for the frame, and I can put this on exactly one wall in my apartment and I don't think I should put up anything else as it will make things too busy and . . .
The same could be said for most people I know and their living conditions.

Extra resolution is great, but practicality is where it's at. I've also only had my M246 for about 9 months, so I'm not included to toss it for the next best thing. Hell, I kept my first gen M longer then I think most people should I and upgraded in part because I could literally cycle my M7 quicker.
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Old 08-29-2019   #33
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The APO-SL Crons are a big deal for IQ. A SL2-M would be unreal IQ for B&W.
New lenses generally make a big difference. Iíve found that even with 24mp in the 246 that older lenses show their flaws substantially more than on the 18mp MM sensor. The film era lenses, for example, seem to be quite poorly protected from rear element-sensor flare. So my f1 Noctilux which was almost flare proof on film, shows some very interesting and weird flare with a digital sensor under some lighting conditions.

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Old 08-29-2019   #34
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New lenses generally make a big difference. Iíve found that even with 24mp in the 246 that older lenses show their flaws substantially more than on the 18mp MM sensor. The film era lenses, for example, seem to be quite poorly protected from rear element-sensor flare. So my f1 Noctilux which was almost flare proof on film, shows some very interesting and weird flare with a digital sensor under some lighting conditions.

Marty
Aye. I really liked my old 50mm f1.4 Nikkor-sc on my 1st gen Monochrom, but it wasn't soo special on the M246 and I've subsequently been using a much newer 50 these days.
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Old 08-30-2019   #35
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I'm still looking at my walls, going, 24" x 24" print, now add 6-10" for the frame, and I can put this on exactly one wall in my apartment and I don't think I should put up anything else as it will make things too busy and . . .
The same could be said for most people I know and their living conditions.

Extra resolution is great, but practicality is where it's at. I've also only had my M246 for about 9 months, so I'm not included to toss it for the next best thing. Hell, I kept my first gen M longer then I think most people should I and upgraded in part because I could literally cycle my M7 quicker.
FT,

I understand. I live in a 650 square foot apartment with a celeb fashion blogger. The place is booby trapped with woman's clothes, shoes and handbags.

For me I have all these images of NYC that could be marketed to decorate lobbies of high rises, commercial buildings, hotels and other large buildings. Pretty much if you live in an apartment one big image is like living with a billboard, unless you live in a loft.

For me the overkill is a good thing because it will likely get used. Also know that I still own and shoot my 18MP Monochrom because it is still a great camera warts and all. I know the M-246 is a much more advanced camera...

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Old 08-30-2019   #36
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Iím not sure why MF IQ has to be measured in MP only.
Nine of the digital M has decent DR of even 135 format.
Or is it about digital MF; which is crop of real MF
Ko.Fe,

For me MF IQ to some extent is related to print size.

Printing big expands the tonal range, and this is where files from small format cameras look and resemble medium format. The tonality is less about contrast and is more about shadow detail and a vast midrange.

So my response is that the medium format look is twofold: one is enhanced detail via resolution; and also enhanced detail in an expanded tonality.

Files have a lot of detail that you can't see unless you make big prints. I print 12x18 image size for my proofing and for my small image size, but my large prints are 20x30 image size on 24x36 sheet. Things really open up on a big print. Much more detail as far as resolution and tonality.

I dare say that with some files from my Monochrom (18MP) have made people ask if it was shot with large format.

Your point is well taken. Resolution alone does not make medium format IQ.

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Old 08-30-2019   #37
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Ha ha yeah I knew it wouldn't take long for the Leica haters to jump in. No matter how you slice it a Nikon D 750 (great camera BTW) will never be a rangefinder. The M 10 is a great camera no matter how you slice and dice it. Don't like it, don't buy it, period. There are a multitude of the others that aren't rangefinders out there. Pick one.

I am really curious to see what the M 10 M will be. Cal, I have had similar responses from seeing my work from the original 18mp MM.
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Old 08-30-2019   #38
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Ha ha yeah I knew it wouldn't take long for the Leica haters to jump in. No matter how you slice it a Nikon D 750 (great camera BTW) will never be a rangefinder. The M 10 is a great camera no matter how you slice and dice it. Don't like it, don't buy it, period. There are a multitude of the others that aren't rangefinders out there. Pick one.

I am really curious to see what the M 10 M will be. Cal, I have had similar responses from seeing my work from the original 18mp MM.
Alan,

The original MM makes great files in the right hands. With some exceptional files I wish I had a 44 inch printer.

My friend Klaus and I say, "Big prints don't lie!" LOL.

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Old 08-30-2019   #39
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I used to own a 1960 Volvo P1800...
Didnt go very fast..but it was fun to drive..and what a looker..


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Old 08-30-2019   #40
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Alan,

The original MM makes great files in the right hands. With some exceptional files I wish I had a 44 inch printer.

My friend Klaus and I say, "Big prints don't lie!" LOL.

Cal
Absolutely. Shot a job for a client that the finals were 36 X 54 and you could get right up on the prints. They were the main stairwell of a hospital client.

My show in Chicago June 2018 were all 12 X 18 though the exhibit in Germany this past May weren't that large because the gallery supplied frames and also the cost of shipping.
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