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Old 09-29-2019   #41
jsrockit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
There is not enough audience for such things to be created new. I have three or four excellent 35mm "advanced P&S" cameras. All in perfect working order, and will be for years of use to come. There aren't enough buyers ... I can't even sell the used ones at a reasonable price. New ones would be double to triple the price I'd take for these.

G
Yet, prices keep going up so I’m not sure where you are trying to sell. Look at the sold prices on eBay of a Yashica T4. All time high prices right now. And that isn’t even a premium compact film P&S. Your beloved polaroid style cameras are being sold again by various makers and sometimes at crazy prices new.
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Old 09-29-2019   #42
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The guys over at Buttergrip have made the Cameradactyl “line” with the 6x9 Homonculus, 4x5 OG Handheld, and a 4x5 view camera is coming along with a promise of something new coming at the end of October.

3D printing has made anything possible. Especially if your willing to treat prototype as product.

Also, the Fuji 690s are still pretty affordable as well as the Mamiya Press line being half the Fuji’s. Still affordable ways to shoot 6x9 that I can see.
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Old 09-29-2019   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac View Post
I don’t know if you’re out of touch or just trolling, but in my hometown a roll of Portra400, shot and developed, will set you back about $25aud. If film is your primary medium, that’s going to rack up pretty quick.

LOL! Yeah, out of touch.


About $12 USD where I'm at to buy and develop a roll of film. Even cheaper if you do it yourself. Film costs to me are trivial. I buy and shoot as much as I want, whenever I want. Your situation is obviously different, but hardly representative of most.
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Old 09-29-2019   #44
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Originally Posted by retinax View Post
I'm not so sure about having just someone doing it under license. Apart from the cost and difficulty there's also the issue of trust. I'd need a lot of confidence in the maker do make it right and to support it for a while before I'd consider buying a new, expensive camera. So I think if something like that ever happened, it would have to come from someone like Hasselblad, Phase One or Fuji. Fuji at least still have the tech around making light meters, leaf shutters and optical viewfinders, plus they make film, so the incentive of selling a bit more thereof and demonstrating commitment to it.

Fujifilm outsourced all their last batch of film cameras to Cosina. They can't build them by themselves anymore it seems.
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Old 09-29-2019   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmoose View Post
Reviving MF production? A pleasant fantasy dream - but a dream.
As I see it, the major factors AGAINST a revival of new MF cameras are -
The horrific cost of 120 film.
Ozmoose in N America 120 film is basically $5 a roll. I'd hardly call that horrific. If you put it in the context of the price of commodities: gas for your vehicle, a $5 coffee at Starbucks or similar.
I don't think that the price of film is the limiting factor. What do people do with their photos.... scan? show on Instagram or...?
In relation to a $2k-$8k body for a digital camera $5 film cost is inconsequential IMO. I agree with Cameraquest that there are enough medium format cameras out there to keep users going. As a printer, I'll tell you that i use far more 120 than 35 & 5x7".... because it hits a very sweet spot for enlarging prints. As far as a resurgence, as much as I am impressed with what you can 3d print, I don't think the results can match a Plaubel Makina, Rolleiflex, Hasselblad or Mamiya. Fuji GW670/80/90....
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Old 09-29-2019   #46
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Originally Posted by Out to Lunch View Post
If there was money in it, all the brands would be churning them out. And they are not. Draw your own conclusions.
This is it, right here.

The law of supply and demand is one of the few that is rigidly obeyed these days, and the supply of easily repaired MF cameras far outstrips the world’s demand for newly manufactured ones at the price those would need to be sold for. And the newly made more expensive ones wouldn’t take photos any better the CLA’d old ones. And you can bet your life that newly made ones would be the most expensive way to get the same result.
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Old 09-29-2019   #47
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
About $12 USD where I'm at to buy and develop a roll of film.
Its complicated because it varies so widely. I am looking at $23 to $26 for 120 C-41 processing + scan, regardless whether I get it done locally or mail it away to a lab. This would be on top of the purchase price of the film. Prints would be extra.

On the other hand, I can process B&W for just pennies a roll; one bottle of Rodinal does quite a few rolls. And B&W I scan myself because its so much easier than color.
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Old 09-29-2019   #48
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Yet, prices keep going up so I’m not sure where you are trying to sell. Look at the sold prices on eBay of a Yashica T4. All time high prices right now. And that isn’t even a premium compact film P&S. Your beloved polaroid style cameras are being sold again by various makers and sometimes at crazy prices new.
EBay, craigslist, etc. Very few offers. The numbers aren't there.

Refurbishing a Polaroid SX-70 is a tremendous amount of hand work, all of which is very costly. Refurbishing and UPGRADING an SX-70, the way MiNT has done, is an even more expensive endeavor. Consider that a new SX-70 back in the day sold for $200 ... that's about a $1500 camera new now, and MiNT sells the SLR670x, their top of the line refurbished/upgraded SX-70, for about $800 ... a bargain.

The market is healthy but tiny ... It's a niche product for goofballs like me.

There's absolutely no way the market would support the development costs of producing a NEW SX-70. The factory to do such a thing, even if you had the old tooling to work with, would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that MiNT has managed to produce the RF70 in very limited volume at under $1000 retail is nothing short of amazing ... and, good as it is, it's nowhere near the sophistication and quality of an original SX-70.

Note: I'm home-brewing my own Instax SQ format camera, using a processing unit from the Instant Magny 35 kickstarter project, a Mamiya 50mm lens and lens mount from the Press 23 camera, and a custom built adapter tube. That alone is about a $500 enterprise, using existing bits. Building a new camera for production from scratch is NOT easy and NOT cheap.

G
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Old 09-29-2019   #49
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I get it Godfrey, but premium point and shoot cameras were never cheap. My
Point is that if there is a place where lack of supply might be lesser than demand, it could be premium point and shoots. And of course it would be the goof balls like us that would buy them, not the mainstream.
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Old 09-29-2019   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Odd. My GF670 has been all over the world, and has shot over 1,000 rolls of film without so much as a problem. I never take special precautions with the camera, just toss it into the bag and grab as needed. Not fragile at all.
Ted, I'm glad yours works flawlessly. Besides my friends' Bessa problems, there are lots of posts about lack of parts & repair availability on a recently discontinued camera. I think the Bessa lll & the Hasselblad XPan would suit my needs to a T..... i'm sadly, not prepared to take the risk involved...since neither is inexpensive despite the known problems.
I'm thinking i'll get another Plaubel Makina 670.... love those folders
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Old 10-12-2019   #51
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Well, if we climb aboard the “youth likes film” train, why not a New “Brownie” Box Camera, styled for “today”. You’d have to simplify film and developing though. How about a prepaid mailer, send it in, film developed and scans sent back ASAP by email. Might work.
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Old 10-12-2019   #52
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Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac View Post
I don’t know if you’re out of touch or just trolling, but in my hometown a roll of Portra400, shot and developed, will set you back about $25aud. If film is your primary medium, that’s going to rack up pretty quick.
If you can’t afford $10 a roll of film choose a different hobby.

Develop and scan yourself. Shoot black and white. Collect model trains.

Film and film services in Aus are incredibly cheap
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Old 10-12-2019   #53
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Unfortunately I don't think a new high quality mf camera is all that feasible these days. Yes, prices for some cameras have gone up but they're still lower than what they cost new.

Premium P&S cameras (or even low end high quality) are a different matter altogether. The prices for some models have gone up so much that it seems like they cost just as much as they did new. Also, much as one might think it's just a bubble, the fact still remains that the supply is getting more and more limited. Unlike with mechanical cameras, fewer people bother having an electronic p&s serviced (and sometimes it's just not possible). So many people would probably be happy to pay $1k for a new Klasse W/S type camera instead of the same price for a used Contax T2
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #54
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One thing's for sure: being a camera technician would be a good business to go into.

Watchmaking is coming back too, to support mechanical watches coming back.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #55
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Originally Posted by Jamie123 View Post
Unfortunately I don't think a new high quality mf camera is all that feasible these days. Yes, prices for some cameras have gone up but they're still lower than what they cost new.

Premium P&S cameras (or even low end high quality) are a different matter altogether. The prices for some models have gone up so much that it seems like they cost just as much as they did new.
They are more expensive now then when new...
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #56
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One thing's for sure: being a camera technician would be a good business to go into.
I have a friend who went to Washington state to camera repair school, interned with Frank Marshman in VA, then returned to Orlando. Ten years ago he started by riding his bicycle carrying his tools to several camera shops to do repairs. Now he has his own building, has an assistant to help with minor jobs, and a half time admin person to answer the phone. But he still has an unlisted phone number and no sign in front of his shop saying the pro customers he wants to deal with know where he is and he is busy enough.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #57
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The last one of them, the GF670W, was $2999 and many complained that it's expensive. It didn't sell well, but more likely wasn't made in large number to begin with. The demand was extremely tiny. That was 2011. Imagine the cost for anyone to build a line and make these now.

Even if we did get a new one, people would still complain - and mourn even louder when it's gone. Such is the renaissance - cameras better be dead than being new, alive and expensive.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #58
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A nice sentiment, but not likely to happen.

Fuji, Cosina, etc discontinued these cameras due to declining sales. In Fuji's case, what is the likelihood they would consider remanufacturing a MF camera system when they can't even sell enough 120 film to keep certain stocks in production, and they have to hike prices 30% to keep what they ARE still selling financially viable?

Just my theory. Well that and the fact that MF cameras weren't used and abused the way Nikon or Canon SLRs were in their day, for the most part...meaning a robust market full of MF cameras that are still going relatively strong compared to their 35mm brethren....
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #59
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You curmudgeons do know that Lomography makes the fantastic LC-A 120, right? You can buy it brand spankin' new. So instead of griping about what it was like back in the day when film was $5 a roll (which it still is), buy an LC-A 120.

It's one of my favourite cameras, and I also have Hasselblad, Rolleiflexes, Veriwides etc etc.
Which cost waaaaaay more.

So perhaps instead of wishing and wanting, buy one and other mfgs may wake up and pay attention and see that people are buying new medium format cameras. For those who say they never would buy a new expensive MF camera (which the Lomo is not), they are the same types who would never buy a new Leica film camera. And yet Leica still makes those because there is still demand for them.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #60
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I think a lot of this is to do with the discovery that CDs die eventually. I was never aware of that when I started buying them all those years ago but I have many in my collection that will no longer play. Meanwhile my collection of vinyl sits there looking at me wondering when I might get a record player to play them again some day. It's an interesting world.
Yes, Keith. But vinyl takes up so much space... My shelves were sagging until I disposed of about two-thirds of my vinyl a few years go. Kept the jazz and blues, so all is well.

Add the cost of a new turntable of a quality and standard I consider worth buying, costing not much less than the price of a new Nikon D610 at my camera seller in Melbourne.

Then add the replacement stylus, and a service (of turntable) every couple of years, essential if you use it regularly.

Vinyl is 1950s tech, CDs are 1980s tech. Two years ago albums cost $1 each in every op shop in Australia. Now $5-$10 or more. Hipster market.

Now I'll start playing every CD in my collection (about 3,000), and hope and pray none have "passed away" on me...

A most instructive post. Many thanks!

PS Were you referring to top brand CDs, or the cheaper 'generic' CD pressings? Is there a difference?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #61
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Originally Posted by honozooloo View Post
A nice sentiment, but not likely to happen.

Fuji, Cosina, etc discontinued these cameras due to declining sales. In Fuji's case, what is the likelihood they would consider remanufacturing a MF camera system when they can't even sell enough 120 film to keep certain stocks in production, and they have to hike prices 30% to keep what they ARE still selling financially viable?

Just my theory. Well that and the fact that MF cameras weren't used and abused the way Nikon or Canon SLRs were in their day, for the most part...meaning a robust market full of MF cameras that are still going relatively strong compared to their 35mm brethren....
Maybe, just maybe, the production of new MF film cameras (or 35mm for that matter) might help drive up the sale of film? perhaps the big film producers could produce cameras for sale at or near cost, or even as loss leaders and make their money back on increased film sales, a little like the home printer market?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #62
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Originally Posted by c.poulton View Post
Maybe, just maybe, the production of new MF film cameras (or 35mm for that matter) might help drive up the sale of film? perhaps the big film producers could produce cameras for sale at or near cost, or even as loss leaders and make their money back on increased film sales, a little like the home printer market?

Fujifilm if they wanted to, could easily bring back film camera production. It's clear that they do not want to so we can understand how committed they are to film.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #63
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Film cameras are a niche within a niche. Barring a drastic regime change a new mass consumer model that eats roll film won't happen. A very expensive limited run? Sure.

If they want to sell film then they need to market it more aggressively. Ironically, this means Instagram and its cohort. The current interest in film is a blip and the manufacturers are busy trying to see how production can remain profitable as a niche product like oil paints, horse saddles, and carburetors.

50 years ago every single person that had a camera and wanted to use it needed film. Needless to say...
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #64
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Here's the thing, Japanese businesses are risk-averse. When they DO take risks, they generally don't take big ones.

Gearing up to produce film cameras again would be a big risk. (though I'm told that instant cameras are doing GREAT, these days...)

The Russians figure it out and since they have all the old equipment still, they are first. Then, the Chinese figure out how to copy an older Japanese or German design and start putting out crappy copies. If THOSE all do well enough, the Japanese will consider it a low enough risk.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmoose View Post
Yes, Keith. But vinyl takes up so much space... My shelves were sagging until I disposed of about two-thirds of my vinyl a few years go. Kept the jazz and blues, so all is well.

Add the cost of a new turntable of a quality and standard I consider worth buying, costing not much less than the price of a new Nikon D610 at my camera seller in Melbourne.

Then add the replacement stylus, and a service (of turntable) every couple of years, essential if you use it regularly.

Vinyl is 1950s tech, CDs are 1980s tech. Two years ago albums cost $1 each in every op shop in Australia. Now $5-$10 or more. Hipster market.

Now I'll start playing every CD in my collection (about 3,000), and hope and pray none have "passed away" on me...

A most instructive post. Many thanks!

PS Were you referring to top brand CDs, or the cheaper 'generic' CD pressings? Is there a difference?
I am absolutely no expert on the matter. But I do recall some 10 or 15 years ago some internet posts on the possibility of cosmic rays damaging CDs. But even more so, improper handling as in pulling CDs out of their carrying cases and bending them in the process. I think that may be more likely. I think I see more carriers now,, and have for some time, that allow bending of the carriers and allowing tabs to pull off the CDs so they don't have to be bent to remove the CD.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #66
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What is doable, maybe, is keeping existing MF cameras working and taking pics for the next 50 years.
I just wonder if some of the costs mentioned in expertise to fix old higher-end Mf camers, and parts for them as well as for older lower end MF cameras might change that. I like the idea though. The only "higher-end" MF camera I have is a Mamiya Super Press 23. I don't use it due to its weight and a sever back problem.

But I do have some such as a couple of Welta models in 35mm and MF that seem to work with no problems when I am able to take photos. So I think you may be on to something depending on brand perhaps? I have a low end Zeiss 6x9 folder that take sharp photos and has simple shutter parts as well as aperture blades.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #67
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Fujifilm if they wanted to, could easily bring back film camera production. It's clear that they do not want to so we can understand how committed they are to film.
Make no mistake, Fujifilm is much more committed to its stockholders and its bottom line than it is to the needs of any market niche. But, you can say that for any for-profit company.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #68
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This discussion has highlighted the need for a new forum category.
'Imaginary Cameras'?
No wait, 'Dream Cameras'

Or....how about 'Pie in the sky, 90% underfunded Kickstarter (throw your money away) projects'.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #69
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Oh I like it... Dream Cameras!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #70
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This discussion has highlighted the need for a new forum category.
'Imaginary Cameras'?

Vaporware!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #71
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Make no mistake, Fujifilm is much more committed to its stockholders and its bottom line than it is to the needs of any market niche. But, you can say that for any for-profit company.

Agreed.







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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #72
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Remember that the Cosina Bessa versions were selling new for ~US$2500+ if memory serves. If Cosina starts up the line again, is it worth US3000 to you, when a used Fuji digital MF isn't all that far away and when you reckon the cost of film and processing, perhaps the same?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #73
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Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I think a lot of this is to do with the discovery that CDs die eventually. I was never aware of that when I started buying them all those years ago but I have many in my collection that will no longer play. Meanwhile my collection of vinyl sits there looking at me wondering when I might get a record player to play them again some day. It's an interesting world.
More often than not, it's the laser in your player going bad. Discs can go bad too. But laser diodes have a finite life.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #74
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More often than not, it's the laser in your player going bad. Discs can go bad too. But laser diodes have a finite life.

Dante

If disks go bad, then why on earth do people not take the opportunity while they are still working, to "rip" the music to their PC hard drive. If you use a Windows PC then the Windows Media Player in Windows has a ripping function already built in that is simple to use (or if in doubt, Google how to do it).

A CD full of tracks typically rips to about 100 megabytes of files even at the highest quality setting. This is almost nothing these days when hard drives typically come with terabytes of storage. And if you are worried about hard drive failure........back the files up to an external drive. In fact I have all of my music stored on my hard drive and on a 64 gigabyte SD cards that can also play in the music player in my car - killing two birds with one stone. And also on a small format portable hard drive just because I can. Really it is worth doing and fast to achieve. Not sure of the legal position elsewhere but in Australia we have fair use laws allowing you to "format shift" and back up music on CDs you own to other formats.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #75
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This may not be what the OP was thinking about, but it's a start! (Along with the Lomo and Diana)

https://kosmofoto.com/2019/10/harman...ntmere-camera/
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #76
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Remember that the Cosina Bessa versions were selling new for ~US$2500+ if memory serves. If Cosina starts up the line again, is it worth US3000 to you, when a used Fuji digital MF isn't all that far away and when you reckon the cost of film and processing, perhaps the same?

The original Fujifilm GF670 and GF670W were produced in 10,000 camera batches. They eventually sold them all so it was worth enough for those people. Film is only more popular today than it was 5 years ago.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #77
Smaug
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This may not be what the OP was thinking about, but it's a start! (Along with the Lomo and Diana)

https://kosmofoto.com/2019/10/harman...ntmere-camera/
I was just thinking about this, and wouldn't this be a fun item to give to a digital photographer who has never tried film? Or to give out at weddings? Then get them back, develop the film and post the images. Maybe even print the REALLY good ones?

Might go a long way toward getting folks hooked on film in general and B&W film in particular. As long as Ilford doesn't get too greedy, it could be a great way to boost their business. I'm going to look for these and buy a few for family and friends; see how it pans out.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #78
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I rather hope that there will be a new generation of skilled repair technicians that will keep our gear alive.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaug View Post
I was just thinking about this, and wouldn't this be a fun item to give to a digital photographer who has never tried film? Or to give out at weddings? Then get them back, develop the film and post the images. Maybe even print the REALLY good ones?

Might go a long way toward getting folks hooked on film in general and B&W film in particular. As long as Ilford doesn't get too greedy, it could be a great way to boost their business. I'm going to look for these and buy a few for family and friends; see how it pans out.
This has been a 'thing' at wedding for many years. Leave a disposable or (more recently) an Instax on every table. See what turns up. It is quite fun.
The photos are for the wedding party so not many of the guests get to experience the magic of roll film if they were unfamiliar. Instax is better in this case.

I agree that a reloadable disposable is a great idea.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #80
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I agree that a reloadable disposable is a great idea.
Isn't a reloadable disposable just a really crappy camera?
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