Old 11-30-2019   #41
Ambro51
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Well......the Univex Mercury II, the one with the “hump”, is half frame and also a damn good picture maker. (And about $50 on ‘bay)
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Old 11-30-2019   #42
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Did you ever lived as regular citizen in socialism or you are campus Starbucks social warrior ?

I lived through it. We have to stay inline for hours, or pay more to speculants or buy available garbage. It was multiple choice with commies. For regulars.
I embrace capitalism because my choice is truly multiple.
My current company gave me BF discount code and we saved 40% on outwear which only high ranked commies kids had.

To me increasing price at BF on product I use is like vomiting on opera stage. Act of morons.
Not sure if your rant is about socialism or about communism. Either way, you didn't like it whatever system that you lived under. But it sounds as if you're anti-capitalism, too.

In a capitalist system, companies make products, and they are free to charge what they like. And you are free to buy, or not to buy. And if you don't like Kodak's prices, then buy from a competitor.
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Old 11-30-2019   #43
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Here's an article touting growth in Kodak's film business.

https://emulsive.org/articles/news/g...ent-in-q3-2019

So this is a good sign, unless Kodak starts making money how long will I be able to buy the film that gives me the results I like?

Really, we're either lamenting the death of film or griping it's gotten a wee bit more expensive. I want them to make money and keep making film. The cost of film is the smallest part of my materials cost at the end of the day.
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Old 11-30-2019   #44
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Really, we're either lamenting the death of film or griping it's gotten a wee bit more expensive.
Yep.

When Eastman Kodak was one of the world’s largest companies they could be profitable and be a very healthy business with profit margins of a few cents per roll. Film is now a boutique business, the necessary margin now is likely in dollars per roll, especially for Kodak, which is still struggling to stay afloat, as opposed to Ilford which seems to be already well adjusted and dialed in to manufacturing and market realities. More efficient, IOW.

Maybe Kodak survives, maybe they don’t, but I’m looking at this price increase as a drowning man coming up for air, not greed. If Kodak can ever get the film business right sized, profitable and stable, I would expect them to then be in a position to become more “competitive” in terms of price.
Surviving long enough to get to that point is the challenge. Raising prices in this environment is a risk, granted, but it may well have been their only option for survival. You can’t sell all your products as loss leaders indefinitely.
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Old 11-30-2019   #45
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Not sure if your rant is about socialism or about communism. Either way, you didn't like it whatever system that you lived under. But it sounds as if you're anti-capitalism, too.

In a capitalist system, companies make products, and they are free to charge what they like. And you are free to buy, or not to buy. And if you don't like Kodak's prices, then buy from a competitor.
Ko.Fe has an idea what he is talking about: austerity which has been a price to pay in controlled economies. Norway was never a communist country, but its social democracy was in some ways austere - particularly when it came to "luxuries" like nice fresh food. I had a little smakbit (taste) here in Oslo when I arrived in the 1990s and lived on the old working class side of town. Most grocery stores had limited stocks and almost no fresh food. Larger supermarkets from Europe were stocked but were too expensive on my salary. The state liquor store was Soviet style - walk up to a counter, the wares were in the back. No quotas but prices were high.
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Old 11-30-2019   #46
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Yep.

When Eastman Kodak was one of the world’s largest companies they could be profitable and be a very healthy business with profit margins of a few cents per roll. Film is now a boutique business, the necessary margin now is likely in dollars per roll, especially for Kodak, which is still struggling to stay afloat, as opposed to Ilford which seems to be already well adjusted and dialed in to manufacturing and market realities. More efficient, IOW.

Maybe Kodak survives, maybe they don’t, but I’m looking at this price increase as a drowning man coming up for air, not greed. If Kodak can ever get the film business right sized, profitable and stable, I would expect them to then be in a position to become more “competitive” in terms of price.
Surviving long enough to get to that point is the challenge. Raising prices in this environment is a risk, granted, but it may well have been their only option for survival. You can’t sell all your products as loss leaders indefinitely.
Exactly - prices reflect scale of the market and costs - for refurbishing equipment and securing the supply train. My understanding though is that Kodak made money last quarter. Film sales are up significantly. See link above.
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Old 11-30-2019   #47
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Ko.Fe has an idea what he is talking about: austerity which has been a price to pay in controlled economies. Norway was never a communist country, but its social democracy was in some ways austere - particularly when it came to "luxuries" like nice fresh food. I had a little smakbit (taste) here in Oslo when I arrived in the 1990s and lived on the old working class side of town. Most grocery stores had limited stocks and almost no fresh food. Larger supermarkets from Europe were stocked but were too expensive on my salary. The state liquor store was Soviet style - walk up to a counter, the wares were in the back. No quotas but prices were high.
He seems to dislike all economic systems. Capitalism uses price as a way to 'ration' products in short supply. That, in theory, creates incentives to expand production - assuming that there is some measure of competition in markets.
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Old 11-30-2019   #48
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Just keep making the stuff. I’ll pay.

I'm glad to see someone with some sense. Not here, but in the other places I frequent, people complain about every price increase.

If what Adox says is true, which I assume it is, prices for film are too low. The only way to train new people, reinvest in your equipment, is to raise prices. If it costs 4 dollars to make a roll and you sell it for 4.10, you're only covering your costs and a little extra.

At the end of the day, I'll pay for film no matter what the cost (within reason) and just shoot accordingly. I budget for this hobby of mine, and as long as film is being made, I'll likely be a film shooter.
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Old 11-30-2019   #49
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Anyways, I don't feel like arguing about capitalism vs socialism as that wasn't the point I was making. The point was, Black Friday is just an arbitrary sales day. There's nothing sacred about it that should be respected.

Also, either you're translating proverbs from another language that don't work in English or you just make the worst similes ever. Vomiting on an opera stage? Why would that be an "act of morons"? Either it's part of the act in which case it makes narrative sense or the opera singer is ill in which case they're in need of medical attention and hardly deserve being called a moron.
The irony being: he's in Canada where "black Friday" is even more arbitrary than it is in the US because in Canada its not attached to an adjacent holiday. Thanksgiving in Canada is in October.

I remember some years ago, one of the major automakers announced one of its models was to be discontinued and the factory closed (and thousands put out of work). The announcement was made at the close of the business day on the evening before Thanksgiving, perhaps in hopes that the media wouldn't give it much coverage. At least that is what the pundits assumed was the case. As it turned out, it was the lead story on the TV news that night.

If the pundits were right (obviously no one knows for sure), the bad news of the factory closure and layoffs were much more sinister than the horrible bad news that this thread is all about. Hey, they're still making the film, right? Just enjoy it. Pack a bag lunch a couple times a month and save some money to pay for film. Sell some gear you're not using. Etc, etc. Heck there's probably some loose change under your sofa cushions and on the floor of the car.
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Old 11-30-2019   #50
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To anyone not having lived under the "freedom of communism" or authoritarian state, intellectuals can find wonders in misery..
Cuba is a tragedy ongoing.
Screw the old junk cars, peeling paint and falling down buildings..
I'm sure Fidel's house had no leaks and he needed many to carry his groceries home..

Film was a lousy mark-up when i briefly carried film (Fuji) in my store..
I love film but at last few camera sales here in Toronto,
i did NOT replace any film..and Kodak Tri-X for one, is a distant relative to the original..
I have not used Kodak since the 70's..

Use Ilford. Use Digital esp for color.
Clients then would not pay for film costs and processing..
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Old 11-30-2019   #51
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Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
To anyone not having lived under the "freedom of communism" or authoritarian state, intellectuals can find wonders in misery..
Cuba is a tragedy ongoing.
Screw the old junk cars, peeling paint and falling down buildings..
I'm sure Fidel's house had no leaks and he needed many to carry his groceries home..

This really isn't the point of the thread, and I'm no fan of communism. However, if you think peeling paint, falling down buildings, and an authority figure living in luxury are specific to communism, I've got some amazing news for you.
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Old 11-30-2019   #52
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It’s possible that I have the wrong attitude. Maybe, if we enjoy film photography, maybe it’s emotionally misleading to compare the price of a roll of film to “what it used to be”, and better instead to measure $12 against one’s net income for the year, because that’s the real yardstick which should determine whether film at $12 is “affordable” or not.
If someone is shooting 30-50 rolls a month, that’s one thing, but for those shooting, say, 3 rolls, 100 shots, 3 exposures every day, it’s $36 a month. For a hobby that can bring as much satisfaction as photography, still seems really inexpensive to me. When I was making $1.40/hour I am not sure film felt a lot cheaper to me than it does now, but I bought it anyway.
Home economics is always about choices, but there’s not much one would need to give up to scrape together $36 a month.
Film cameras are cheaper than dirt, as well, literally. Try pricing what it costs to have a load of fill dirt delivered. Golf, fishing, sailing, horses, bowling, most every hobby is more expensive than film photography is all I am saying.
Nobody needs to look at it the way I do, certainly.

I have an old box of 120 Kodak Verichrome Pan that expired in 1959 with the price tag still in tact. Film cost: $0.70, Tax: $.03, Total: $0.73. Per a number of inflation calculators I used, the price for the film in 2019 dollars would be $6.44 adjusting for inflation. The price for 120 Tri-X today at B&H is $6.99 when purchased in a 5 pack.


This seems to back up your concept that the cost of film like everything else in life has gone up. And in this case the cost is just about even with inflation.

I would also add that the old adage remains true; film is still the cheapest thing in photography."
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Old 11-30-2019   #53
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... Black Friday is just an arbitrary sales day. There's nothing sacred about it that should be respected.
...
Well, not entirely arbitrary: there was an evolution to it.

* Since Thanksgiving is always on Thursday, Americans began making Thursday through Sunday into a long weekend-cum-vacation. These days, it can extend from Wednesday through Monday.

* Since the next big holiday is Christmas, the perfect time to get shopping done ahead of time would be the Friday or weekend directly after Thanksgiving.

* As we all know from accounting, retailers whose finances may have been in the red often had their finances transition to the black on this Thanksgiving weekend.

* Anticipating large crowds and big sales, retailers began opening their stores at crazy early morning hours and being in such lines became a cultural tradition for some people. The cycle thus feeds on itself as a sort of shopping frenzy is anticipated by all.

So, Black Friday is not really arbitrary in origin.
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Old 11-30-2019   #54
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Well, not entirely arbitrary: there was an evolution to it.

* Since Thanksgiving is always on Thursday, Americans began making Thursday through Sunday into a long weekend-cum-vacation. These days, it can extend from Wednesday through Monday.

* Since the next big holiday is Christmas, the perfect time to get shopping done ahead of time would be the Friday or weekend directly after Thanksgiving.

* As we all know from accounting, retailers whose finances may have been in the red often had their finances transition to the black on this Thanksgiving weekend.

* Anticipating large crowds and big sales, retailers began opening their stores at crazy early morning hours and being in such lines became a cultural tradition for some people. The cycle thus feeds on itself as a sort of shopping frenzy is anticipated by all.

So, Black Friday is not really arbitrary in origin.
Righto - BUT they are using "Black Friday" (not translated) here in Norway now. Why? Power of American media and an easy marketing ploy for the retailers.

Anyone care to enlightenment me on what Thanksgiving in Canada is all about? I never knew they had a thanksgiving.
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Old 11-30-2019   #55
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Righto - BUT they are using "Black Friday" (not translated) here in Norway now. Why? Power of American media and an easy marketing ploy for the retailers.

Anyone care to enlightenment me on what Thanksgiving in Canada is all about? I never knew they had a thanksgiving.
Canadian thanksgiving is similar to the US version. A eurocentric celebration of the fall harvest, indicating a chance for winter survival in a harsh and unforgiving land. Occurs the 2nd Monday in October. Canada is cold, eh; so the harvest is earlier...
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Old 11-30-2019   #56
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Anyone care to enlightenment me on what Thanksgiving in Canada is all about? I never knew they had a thanksgiving.
Lopping the head off a large bird to celebrate the subjugation of the natives. What else?

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Old 11-30-2019   #57
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Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
To anyone not having lived under the "freedom of communism" or authoritarian state, intellectuals can find wonders in misery..
Cuba is a tragedy ongoing.
Screw the old junk cars, peeling paint and falling down buildings..
I'm sure Fidel's house had no leaks and he needed many to carry his groceries home..
................
I will comment as I live in rural Cuba part time. Our town is economically struggling but full of happy people. I have many family members who are ardent supporters of the Revolucíon. I can assure everyone the situation in different that you purport.

My Cuban wife is a published poet and writer. She says she is happy she lives in Cuba where her work is published because of it's intellectual merits whereas in the US it would only be published if it had commercial marketability. It does not bother her that our house does not have air conditioning nor hot water. It does not bother her that her washing machine is not automatic because of our limited water supply. She is content with washing a weeks worth of clothes in one batch of soapy water and rinses them in buckets to be hung on the clothes line. She is happy that everyone has a place to live, enough food to eat, medical care, and no cost university opportunities. She says she would not live in the US and have her children raised with capitalist values.

My mother in law at age 12 volunteered to spend a year traveling solo through the countryside setting up temporary schools to teach peasants to read and write. Half of Cuba was illiterate in the early 1960's until they achieved 99+% literacy in two years. It was considered such a normal contribution that no one ever mentioned it until I asked my wife about that project a year after we met. My MIL spent her life working for the Culture system finally leaving her equivalent $20 a month position for a equivalent $10 a month pension. She now lives OK and supports the government.

Thanks to my wife's connections, I was able to attend Fidel's 90th and final birthday celebration. The outpouring of support for him was incredible.

Every May 1st, I attend the annual Communist workers day march and fiesta. http://bobmichaels.org/Primero%20de%...16%20Cueto.mp4 It puts any 4th of July event I have been to in the US to shame.

One can summarize Cuban culture as assigning the highest value to those things that money can't buy such as family, friends, social structure, and caring for every citizen. Quite a contrast to our focus on who has the most money or toys.

Understand that I have no desire to have the US be socialist or Communist but I certainly will not speak poorly of Cuba who is.
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Old 11-30-2019   #58
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... family, friends, social structure, and caring for every citizen. Quite a contrast to our focus on who has the most money or toys.
...
It is mostly on social media, TV, and other advertising that makes many people think Americans or westerners focus on material things above family or social structures, or compassion for others. In reality that is not the case.

My family escaped communist Hungary - actually sneaking past armed border guards with dogs - to come here. The Hungarian communists of that time will kill you if you think the wrong way. I worked with one Cuban refugee, so my strong bet is that Cuba is similar.
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Old 11-30-2019   #59
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Bob, I am left speechless by your post.

Like 'Pál K', my parents separately fled Romania and Poland after having endured the 'benefits' of Communism--secret police, informers all about you, random arrests, bare rations, holding your tongue at all times. Close friends of mine from Cuba had family members 'disappeared', homes, businesses, land and personal possession seized by the Castro brothers and their henchmen. Their parents and grandparents were reduced to menial work after working hard at education and careers. Your experience in the countryside is probably representative of many rural communities that had virtually nothing before the revolution and received some minimal modicum of service afterward, but at the expense of the society as a whole. "Free" medical care at a hospital without medicines is about as meaningful as a banquet with empty plates.

As for your wife, art in Socialist-Marxist paradigms is always in the service of Mother Government and as such, much comply with their rigidly orthodox norms. If she lacks even this basic insight after a half century of stifling totalitarian statism, I am truly sorry for her.

Worst of all, you've drank the mojito-flavored Kool Aid too.
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Old 11-30-2019   #60
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Pál_K, james.liam: thanks for telling me what Cuban people think of their country and their life. One would have thought that living there part time for the last ten years I should have learned that.

BTW: have either of you ever been to Cuba?
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Old 11-30-2019   #61
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Please bend this conversation back to the topic of Kodak price increases and avoid the capitalist/communist/socialist politics. Interesting though some may be, some posts may be "disappeared"...
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Old 11-30-2019   #62
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Yes Bob, I have. One of the saddest places I've been to. Reminds me of Bucharest in 1978 but with palm trees and better music.

But alas, we must listen to Commandanté Doug.


If Kodak's idea is to par the cost of a roll of Ektachrome or Ektar to that of Velvia 50, the film renaissance is all but cooked.
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Old 11-30-2019   #63
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Interesting. At the local: Tri X 24 exposure is $11.40, and HP5+ in 24 exposure is $7.20 CDN...
at Downtown Camera in Toronto, they're basically the same price.However, if one is a member of their loyalty program, Kodak products are 25% off. sooo Tri X is cheaper than Ilford.

I'd call and ask if they have free shipping for orders over a certain threshold. even with CanPost, might still be worthwhile.
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Old 11-30-2019   #64
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I have never seen any type film for sale in Cuba in ten years. But there is a reasonably well stocked Leica store in the Kempinski Manzana hotel in Habana Vieja.

Cuba has some excellent photographers but all shoot digital.
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Old 11-30-2019   #65
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Glad to have it stocked here in Vancouver at Beau Photo , but a roll of Tri-x is $11.00 and HP5+ is $8.00 . So, if one adds 15 percent sales taxes to that and takes taxes from a minimum pay employee income of $13.85/hr , you basically get a roll of Kodak for an hours work . Hows that compare to other countries ?
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Old 11-30-2019   #66
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I have never seen any type film for sale in Cuba in ten years. But there is a reasonably well stocked Leica store in the Kempinski Manzana hotel in Habana Vieja.

Cuba has some excellent photographers but all shoot digital.



Who in Cuba can afford a new Leica??
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Old 11-30-2019   #67
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Glad to have it stocked here in Vancouver at Beau Photo , but a roll of Tri-x is $11.00 and HP5+ is $8.00 . So, if one adds 15 percent sales taxes to that and takes taxes from a minimum pay employee income of $13.85/hr , you basically get a roll of Kodak for an hours work . Hows that compare to other countries ?
Peter
It's about the same as an hour's minimum wage here in Pennsylvania.
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Old 11-30-2019   #68
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Ilford has been cheaper than TriX at B&H for the last couple years. It also dries flatter than TriX which makes it easier to scan. Don't really find the cost of a roll of film to be much of a factor since equipment costs (especially for equipment fanatics like those here) are so much more.

Digital cameras and computers depreciate and film cameras cost to load. You pays your money and makes your choices or find another hobby.
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Old 12-01-2019   #69
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I perceived Color films, specially E6 have taken a very large hike. Velvia 50 is quite expensive and for some reason doesn't seem to be as largely distributed as Provia despite the colorful reputation of it.

I'm shooting color much less due to the hassle of sending out processing. E6 a bit lately as a group of us in a camera club have bought kits and shared the chemistry.

B&W Ilford is well distributed and priced in Europe. Another good and quite economic option here is Foma.

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I have never seen any type film for sale in Cuba in ten years. But there is a reasonably well stocked Leica store in the Kempinski Manzana hotel in Habana Vieja.

Cuba has some excellent photographers but all shoot digital.
There is at least one film photographer I recall from being around a Spanish film forum, and on an occasion a forumer that travelled to Cuba brought him Ilford material to use. IIRC he was also a university professor and I think RFF'er Hogarth Ferguson met him -- I recall him documenting the encounter in his website report on a Cuba trip.
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Old 12-01-2019   #70
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Ilford has had an excellent 15% off and free shipping for Black and White Friday weekend in the UK, which I have just taken advantage of.
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Old 12-01-2019   #71
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The total cost per frame of Kodak 35mm films I use will still be under 25¢ to about 50¢, even after the price increase.
If that allows Kodak to keep making films I like I can live with that.

Chris
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Old 12-01-2019   #72
retinax
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Originally Posted by CharlesDAMorgan View Post
Ilford has had an excellent 15% off and free shipping for Black and White Friday weekend in the UK, which I have just taken advantage of.

I don't see an online shop on Ilford's website, could you point me somewhere?
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Old 12-01-2019   #73
irbridge
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I don't see an online shop on Ilford's website, could you point me somewhere?
Thanks CharlesDAMorgan for pointing this out, just made a purchase myself.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com

Retinax, the code is 'BLACK19' (free shipping for orders over £15).
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Old 12-01-2019   #74
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Hmm I still see no online shop there, probably they hide it due to my non-UK IP address. Too bad.
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Old 12-01-2019   #75
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Please bend this conversation back to the topic of Kodak price increases and avoid the capitalist/communist/socialist politics. Interesting though some may be, some posts may be "disappeared"...
I fully agree. Since it was my mention of the word "capitalist" that seems to have sparked the change of topic, let me make an attempt at getting back on track.

The video posted by Kamerastore mentions that the price increases will most likely hit the the lower cost films. My question is, is that only speculation or is there any evidence that that is the case? Is it just wishful thinking on the part of the Kamerastore guy?

Currently I can get a 3-pack of Kodak Gold 200 (36exp.) for just short of €8 (about $9) at a drug store so that's about $3/roll which is dirt cheap. If they raised the price on that film it still wouldn't be very expensive. However, I fear that the price increase will apply to Portra moreso than films like Gold or ColorPlus. It seems that Portra 400 sells out quite frequently at a local analog photography store and they've had to wait for extended periods of time for their backorders to be filled. It would follow that Kodak would then invest in the infrastructure of the products that are in high demand so that means Portra.

Also, can anyone speculate whether or not it will also apply to something like Kodak's Super 8 Vision film stock?
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And?
Old 12-01-2019   #76
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And?

So's a meal at mcDonalds? that's gone faster than a roll of Tri-X

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Originally Posted by Moto-Uno View Post
Glad to have it stocked here in Vancouver at Beau Photo , but a roll of Tri-x is $11.00 and HP5+ is $8.00 . So, if one adds 15 percent sales taxes to that and takes taxes from a minimum pay employee income of $13.85/hr , you basically get a roll of Kodak for an hours work . Hows that compare to other countries ?
Peter
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Old 12-01-2019   #77
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Ilford has been cheaper than TriX at B&H for the last couple years. It also dries flatter than TriX which makes it easier to scan. Don't really find the cost of a roll of film to be much of a factor since equipment costs (especially for equipment fanatics like those here) are so much more.

Digital cameras and computers depreciate and film cameras cost to load. You pays your money and makes your choices or find another hobby.
Thanks for the tip on Ilford - flatness really matters for me. Lacking a darkroom I scan my (self developed) negatives these days.
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Old 12-01-2019   #78
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As much as I like T-Max 400, I have switched to HP5+ for the last couple of years. For £50 I get 10 Ilford and only 7 T-Max (that's 100 shots more for my money). And the Ilford is a good film. If they were priced the same I would have jumped on the Kodak but they are not.
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Old 12-01-2019   #79
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I'm gonna do my black Friday film purchase today, which I do every year to stock up on what I used most in the current year. Funny, at the main place I buy 120 film, my 2 most used films, Tmax 400 and Ektar are the cheapest. Too bad 4x5 Kodak can't price the same.

Film is not cheap, but it is affordable. If you really do appreciate film, how it works, the process and the end results, then a little hike to keep it available is not that big of a deal. You can't have something for nothing a wise man once wrote in lyrics.
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Old 12-01-2019   #80
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Who has Black Friday film specials?
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