Old 05-01-2015   #81
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Originally Posted by Harry S. View Post
I struggle to believe that a competent photographer couldn't achieve those images with an M240 or any other modern digital color camera.

To this day I still don't see the hype of the MM, and B&W was all I did for the first few years of this hobby.
Harry,

You do make a point. One could likely make the same image with a color camera, but if you scale things up and want to print big I would say the print would kinda tell you something besides capturing the same image.

I made a lot of test prints that were 8 1/2x11's to learn how to utilize Piezography and Quadtone RIP on an Epson 3880. With Piezography I use 7 shades of black instead of the Epson OEM's 3 blacks. 8 1/2x11's were not really big enough to reveal the detail, sharpness, resolution or tonality of the MM files. It seems that you really need to get to about 13x19 to actually see the files breath and give you a rather stunning print that inspires possibilities.

The points I'm trying to make that might be helpful to anyone considering a MM or M-246 is that there are a lot of other costs that kinda go with a purchase of a monochrome Leica like a large calibrated monitor and a rather large printer to fully exploit the camera's full capabilities. I will also tell you that printing big has a lot of costs that become great in just paper and ink. It truely is a nitch camera and not for everyone.

I owned my Monochrom for over two years before I began printing because I had to save thousands to build a printing system that was worthy to fully exploit the camera's capabilities.

I think my prints kinda speak for themselves.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #82
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Seriously, now that I've read some of the explanations above, I am tossing my skeptical / cynical opinions of the MM's.
They appear not simply to be different, but truly better (the best ??) at the specialized task of large (huge!) B&W prints.

If that's what you need, they are not overpriced.
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Old 05-01-2015   #83
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Originally Posted by Harry S. View Post
I struggle to believe that a competent photographer couldn't achieve those images with an M240 or any other modern digital color camera.

To this day I still don't see the hype of the MM, and B&W was all I did for the first few years of this hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
...
Am I wrong in judging Leicas claim of a "100% increase in resolution?" To me it is like Leica is almost saying the M-246 24MP sensor is like a 48MP sensor. I don't buy that. My estimate would be that the M-246 sensor is kinda like a 32 MP sensor as far as resolution and sharpness. ...
I think it best to just look again at Egor's tests of the MM246 at low and high ISO settings compared against both the MM9 and M240.

http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...d-sensibility/

My evaluation:

While at base ISO setting you would be hard pressed to say there's a radical difference between them, at high ISO settings there is a clear advantage to the MM246 with respect to dynamic range and retained detail rendering.

G
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Old 05-01-2015   #84
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Originally Posted by daveleo View Post
Seriously, now that I've read some of the explanations above, I am tossing my skeptical / cynical opinions of the MM's.
They appear not simply to be different, but truly better (the best ??) at the specialized task of large (huge!) B&W prints.

If that's what you need, they are not overpriced.
Not for everyone, but it really is a specialized best tool for the job.

BTW It is hard to imagine a camera better than my MM. Not an easy camera to shoot either because it is IMHO likely to be the most unforgiving camera to shoot. It really likes perfection, and on those ocassions that you get everything right you get unbelievable files that can print not big, but huge.

BTW perfection is not easy to do. Anyways my MM has made me both humble and a better photographer.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #85
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I think it best to just look again at Egor's tests of the MM246 at low and high ISO settings compared against both the MM9 and M240.

http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...d-sensibility/

My evaluation:

While at base ISO setting you would be hard pressed to say there's a radical difference between them, at high ISO settings there is a clear advantage to the MM246 with respect to dynamic range and retained detail rendering.

G
G,

Thanks for the link.

I think it is really clever how you distinguish the Monochrom as a MM9. Very clever.

I need to learn more and I appreciate your help.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #86
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G,

Thanks for the link.

I think it is really clever how you distinguish the Monochrom as a MM9. Very clever.

I need to learn more and I appreciate your help.

Cal
You're welcome, and thank you.

I didn't invent the "MM9" term, but I picked it up because I do get tired of trying to type out "M Monochrom typ 246" every time I refer to it and then other constructions to differentiate it from the M9 derivative Monochrom; "MM9", "MM246", "M240", etc presents a convenient and (reasonably) unambiguous shorthand.

G
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Old 05-01-2015   #87
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I would not be upgrading, nothing replaces a CCD sensor, I would just be buying a second monochrome camera body.

Cal
Why not just wait till the M246 hits and catch a CCD Monochorm used and save a few bucks?
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Old 05-01-2015   #88
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Why not just wait till the M246 hits and catch a CCD Monochorm used and save a few bucks?
Seagrove,

I already own a MM9 and have loved it for almost 2 1/2 years. For me, an old B&W film die-hard, the MM9 really advanced my photography and took me out of the box.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #89
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You're welcome, and thank you.

I didn't invent the "MM9" term, but I picked it up because I do get tired of trying to type out "M Monochrom typ 246" every time I refer to it and then other constructions to differentiate it from the M9 derivative Monochrom; "MM9", "MM246", "M240", etc presents a convenient and (reasonably) unambiguous shorthand.

G
G,

Everyone should read the link you posted. Thanks again.

My jist is at base ISO my MM9 is a comparible camera as far as IQ, resolution, and noise levels. The M-246 is the clear winner for resolution and low noise at high ISO so the new camera offers a very real advantage. Also Harry's point before of capturing the same image and converting to B&W is somewhat also validated as really-really close, but no cigar.

For those of us who are tapped out like me who own a MM9, upgrading does not make sense if we mostly shoot at base ISO (I rarely go above 800 for IQ), but if High ISO is good for you then an upgrade kinda makes sense. A M-240 owner is not left far behind, but is not the best tool for the job.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #90
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So what is the visual difference between images made with the CCD vs the CMOS sensors?

I'm not quite ready to jump on this bandwagon....I still like what I have!
Visually you will see less read noise and more analog dynamic range (at all ISOs).

Neither have color-filter array filters. The differences in R, G and B Bayer filter band widths is no longer a factor in rendering aesthetics.

The IR transmission of the M-246 is unknown at this time, however IR can be aesthetically pleasing for some monochrome rendering. The microlens T-factor differences are unknown as well,

Of course the pixel density will increase.

CCD and CMOS sensors use pinned-diode technology to model light amplitude as electrical charge. So what happens when the shutter is open is identical.

"Both CMOS and CCD chips sense light through similar mechanisms, by taking advantage of the photoelectric effect, which occurs when photons interact with crystallized silicon to promote electrons from the valence band into the conduction band. Note that the term "CMOS" refers to the process by which the image sensor is manufactured and not to a specific imaging technology."

The analog SNR, and DR differences are primarily caused by disparities in efficiencies of the analog electronics after the shutter closes.

These technical aspects of the cameras' data streams are only one aspect of the final images' aesthetics.
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Old 05-01-2015   #91
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...
They appear not simply to be different, but truly better (the best ??) at the specialized task of large (huge!) B&W prints.

...
Absolutely.
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Old 05-01-2015   #92
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The IR transmission of the M-246 is unknown at this time, however IR can be aesthetically pleasing for some monochrome rendering. The microlens T-factor differences are unknown as well,
Willie,

Thanks for the added clarity.

On my MM9 I discovered that using specifically a Heliopan 2x yellow kinda hit the sweet spot of the Monochrom sensor. I further discovered that using Heliopan 2X yellow filters that were marked "DIGITAL" also have both additional IR and UV filters that cut the signal in a manner that either curbed clipping or in many cases eliminated clipping altogether.

From experience I can say that cutting IR signal on my MM9 greatly helped with my signal to noise ratio, curbed or eliminated clipping, and helped promote broad histograms that were exposed to the right.

How can IR signal help in B&W?

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #93
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Thanks for your insights.

I also would like to add that Leica also does not use an anti alias filter on any M-body digital cameras, and and this lack of an AA filter also adds to resolution and sharpness.

Am I wrong in judging Leicas claim of a "100% increase in resolution?" To me it is like Leica is almost saying the M-246 24MP sensor is like a 48MP sensor. I don't buy that. My estimate would be that the M-246 sensor is kinda like a 32 MP sensor as far as resolution and sharpness.

Still pixel size has its own richness.

Cal
There is no color so no RGB. The original 18MP MM is really close in DR and sharpness to the D800 which is 36MPs. I haven't seen or shot with the new MM and haven't read much about it so don't know about it.
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Old 05-01-2015   #94
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Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
...
My jist is at base ISO my MM9 is a comparible camera as far as IQ, resolution, and noise levels. The M-246 is the clear winner for resolution and low noise at high ISO so the new camera offers a very real advantage. Also Harry's point before of capturing the same image and converting to B&W is somewhat also validated as really-really close, but no cigar.

For those of us who are tapped out like me who own a MM9, upgrading does not make sense if we mostly shoot at base ISO (I rarely go above 800 for IQ), but if High ISO is good for you then an upgrade kinda makes sense. A M-240 owner is not left far behind, but is not the best tool for the job. ...
If the decision criteria is on image characteristics alone, I agree.

However, having moved to the M-P typ 240 after having the M9 for three years use, I find the other benefits of moving to the typ 240/246 series cameras to be compelling enough that I'd upgrade anyway, given the resources to do so. The improved responsiveness, quieter shutter, and more ergonomic controls alone make it for me, never mind the potential of Live View and optional EVF, or the other stuff. That's my personal opinion.

Of course, if I couldn't afford it, I'd keep going with what I had. :-)

G
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Old 05-01-2015   #95
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Video with RAX https://vimeo.com/12636531 and MM246. He is my favourite photographer. Not sure if he is going to use it in the field for real though :P
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Old 05-01-2015   #96
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There is no color so no RGB. The original 18MP MM is really close in DR and sharpness to the D800 which is 36MPs. I haven't seen or shot with the new MM and haven't read much about it so don't know about it.
My point is that there is also a contribution to the resolution and sharpness due to a lack of an Anti-Alias filter that you failed to mention in addition to the understood lack of Bayer Filter Array.

The Nikon D-800 has an "E" version that lacks an Anti-Alias filter for higher resolution. When you mention the Nikon D800 which D800 version are you refering to?

Great to hear that the MM9 does so well. Would be really cool if you think that the MM9 matches a D800E.

Thanks in advance.

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Old 05-01-2015   #97
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Here...D800 E
http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/27...hrom-vs-d800e/

The original MM held it's own pretty well I'd say.
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Old 05-01-2015   #98
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I think it best to just look again at Egor's tests of the MM246 at low and high ISO settings compared against both the MM9 and M240.

http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...d-sensibility/

My evaluation:

While at base ISO setting you would be hard pressed to say there's a radical difference between them, at high ISO settings there is a clear advantage to the MM246 with respect to dynamic range and retained detail rendering.

G
Agree. To be more specific, for all practical purposes, there is an advantage with the MM2 at ISO >= 3200 ASA; 246 files and monochrom'ed 240 files have similar noise/resolution/DR at ISO <= 1600.

I'm wondering if more could be done on the 240 files with a better B+W conversion algorithm.

For Cal: remember that - compared to M9 - the 240 is more IR sensitive (thinner sensor filter). Once you'll hear the 246 shutter, you might never touch your MM9 again

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Old 05-01-2015   #99
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If the decision criteria is on image characteristics alone, I agree.

However, having moved to the M-P typ 240 after having the M9 for three years use, I find the other benefits of moving to the typ 240/246 series cameras to be compelling enough that I'd upgrade anyway, given the resources to do so. The improved responsiveness, quieter shutter, and more ergonomic controls alone make it for me, never mind the potential of Live View and optional EVF, or the other stuff. That's my personal opinion.

Of course, if I couldn't afford it, I'd keep going with what I had. :-)

G
G,

The 2 GB buffer, the larger screen, and Live view to possibly use the camera as a scanner with a chrome 90 Macro Elmar I already own are further reasons. I actually like the extra weight of the M-240.

On one hand I still love my MM9, and if I could it would be great to own and use two monochrom M-bodies, but that might be a huge stretch.

A possible and sensible solution for both me and Leica is to offer a generous trade-in on my MM9 so I can upgrade. My sensor is still unspoiled and shows no hint of corrosion even though I am brassing through the anodize.

Perhaps this is why Leica didn't wait till the fall to release the M-246. In many ways good engineering is problem solving.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #100
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When will they start to ship?
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Old 05-01-2015   #101
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Is the camera the same dimensions as the 240 or the Monochrom? Will my current half case for my Monochrom fit the new body, and does it use the same batteries?

I might actually take the plunge on this.....we'll see how the next few months go.
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Old 05-01-2015   #102
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For Cal: remember that - compared to M9 - the 240 is more IR sensitive (thinner sensor filter). Once you'll hear the 246 shutter, you might never touch your MM9 again

Roland.
Roland,

Thanks for the understanding you conveyed. Interesting how Leica is developing filters for use with this camera that I think are coming at a delayed date after the camera release.

In my experience the filter out of IR and UV helps with the signal to noise ratio and effectively curbs clipping.

In real life I have a rather loud persona, and I'm not shy. The loud shutters never bothered me. This is coming from a guy who shoots a F3P with MD-4 and a Pentax 67II. Probably doesn't help is that my ears are kinda dead now that I'm getting older.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #103
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When will they start to ship?
They are saying May.

If I had the money I'd get on a waiting list now. When I ordered my MM9 I waited 5 months for my number to come up at POP Flash. I wanted to support a RFF sponsor. Also Alex and Tony are great.

Not sure how crazy the backlog can get. In my case the wait wasn't so bad because I didn't have the money, and I had some time to scramble.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #104
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When will they start to ship?
Supposedly mid-May, according to my pusher.

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Old 05-01-2015   #105
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Is the camera the same dimensions as the 240 or the Monochrom? Will my current half case for my Monochrom fit the new body, and does it use the same batteries?

I might actually take the plunge on this.....we'll see how the next few months go.
Control layout, sizing and weight are the same as M/M-P typ 240, as is battery. So you'll need a new half case and spare battery.

(I recouped more than half the cost of a new battery and half case by selling my M9 batteries and half case when I went to the M-P.)

G
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Old 05-01-2015   #106
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Jeff,

I like the $7495.00 price better.

Cal
In Canada It's list for 9090$ canadian dollars.
Which is about 7495USD and my annual rent
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Old 05-01-2015   #107
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Is the camera the same dimensions as the 240 or the Monochrom? Will my current half case for my Monochrom fit the new body, and does it use the same batteries?

I might actually take the plunge on this.....we'll see how the next few months go.
Vince,

I think the same as the M-240. Battery on the M-240 is different and with a longer capacity. Your current half case will unlikely accomodate the larger screen.

Oh-well.

Consider how the generous trade-in factor could work in your favor to deal with the sensor corrosion repair/replacement program. I'm personally thinking that this will apply to me, but I may have to be patient and wait till the initial demand wanes. This is pretty reasonable. Meanwhile so far I have enjoyed my MM9 without any problems for nearly 2 1/2 years.

Good luck.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #108
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Not sure how crazy the backlog can get. In my case the wait wasn't so bad because I didn't have the money, and I had some time to scramble.
And you had plenty of other fine cameras and lenses...
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Old 05-01-2015   #109
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And you had plenty of other fine cameras and lenses...
+1 ... Since I already have a fine assortment of cameras that I love using, a wait matters not at all to me. I'll likely put in an order for an MM246 and continue my program of selling off the excess equipment. Who knows? If I have to wait a bit, I may be able to pay for it directly from my 'excess equipment sales' and have a cleaner, more empty equipment cabinet to store it in as well. :-)

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Old 05-01-2015   #110
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Vince,

Consider how the generous trade-in factor could work in your favor to deal with the sensor corrosion repair/replacement program. I'm personally thinking that this will apply to me, but I may have to be patient and wait till the initial demand wanes. This is pretty reasonable. Meanwhile so fare I have enjoyed my MM9 without any problems for nearly 2 1/2 years.

Good luck.

Cal
Would the trade-in arrangement apply to this new camera?
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Old 05-01-2015   #111
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Would the trade-in arrangement apply to this new camera?
That is a question you will have to put to Leica. At the time my M9 was diagnosed with a bad sensor, I had the option of either an M typ 240 or an M-P typ 240 upgrade. I chose the latter (it was a better deal).

Since the MM246 isn't shipping just yet, Leica has likely not*yet made an official statement of policy on the M9 sensor replacement with respect to it...

G
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Old 05-01-2015   #112
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I'm sending my M-E to Leica NJ for sensor evaluation this coming week as I have a couple bad columns due a couple dead pixels. I know that I may be given an option to trade in for the M240. I wonder if the MM240 will now be an option?

One of my reasons to now want the MM240 is the higher ISO with less noise than the M240. I've been shooting more indoors of local musicians and prefer B&W. 1600 ISO is pushing the limits on my M-E with the 75 Cron @ f2.0.

I've also run up against the small buffer in the M-E another advantage to the new MM240.

The big question is can I do without color in my primary/only camera?
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Old 05-01-2015   #113
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Would the trade-in arrangement apply to this new camera?
Vince,

Leica had a trade in option for people sending in their M9's and MM9's to upgrade to a M-240 that needed sensor repair/replacement. To me it seems kinda logical that they would extend that "Good Will" towards a M-246. Seems to me that everyone wins and it truely would enhance Leica's reputation as a premium luxury brand. I can't see how they could not offer it, and if they didn't I would be forced to ask. Leica is not going to reneg on repairing all those problem sensors...

Then again I have to be resonable and not pile onto the backlog and be a jerk, so some patience would be required. Meanwhile I can still use my problem free MM9.

Since your camera is so new and fresh you would get one of the most generous value for your trade-in. My camera shows a lot of finish wear through heavy use, no scrapes, dents or scratches, just brassing through the anodize.

"Win-Win-Win," I say.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #114
gilgsn
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I am waiting for the Fuji X100BW.

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Old 05-01-2015   #115
Calzone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
I'm sending my M-E to Leica NJ for sensor evaluation this coming week as I have a couple bad columns due a couple dead pixels. I know that I may be given an option to trade in for the M240. I wonder if the MM240 will now be an option?

One of my reasons to now want the MM240 is the higher ISO with less noise than the M240. I've been shooting more indoors of local musicians and prefer B&W. 1600 ISO is pushing the limits on my M-E with the 75 Cron @ f2.0.

I've also run up against the small buffer in the M-E another advantage to the new MM240.

The big question is can I do without color in my primary/only camera?
Duane,

My spin is you have to ask, but you might have to wait, and that might likely mean being without a camera untill a M-246 becomes available for you.

The question about doing without color only you can answer, but don't forget that monochrome Leicas also have a higher base ISO. This is another advantage that should not be discounted.

Keep us in the loop. Perhaps if you are lucky, you will somehow get top listed. You could be a very lucky guy.

Anyways this has been a very soothing thread that is very exciting to me. Thanks everyone who extended their understanding.

Cal
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Old 05-01-2015   #116
Duane Pandorf
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Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Duane,

My spin is you have to ask, but you might have to wait, and that might likely mean being without a camera untill a M-246 becomes available for you.

The question about doing without color only you can answer, but don't forget that monochrome Leicas also have a higher base ISO. This is another advantage that should not be discounted.

Keep us in the loop. Perhaps if you are lucky, you will somehow get top listed. You could be a very lucky guy.

Anyways this has been a very soothing thread that is very exciting to me. Thanks everyone who extended their understanding.

Cal
Thanks Cal,

This is an example of the what I mean by 1600 ISO @ f2.0:

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Old 05-01-2015   #117
srtiwari
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When will they start to ship?
Leica store said "in a week or so", but had no idea how many they would be alloted in their initial shipment.
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Old 05-01-2015   #118
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I pulled the trigger this morning with Dales Leica store. Mid May would be good. Much better than the MM9 which took forever.

Thank you all for talking me into this
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Old 05-01-2015   #119
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Just got off the phone with Leica NJ, and the answer to the upgrade program is 'not at the moment'. They're waiting to hear from Germany what the plan is, how much trade-in allowance there will be, etc. And if they do go ahead with it, they probably won't fulfill those trade-ins for a couple of months, as the initial M246 supply will be limited.

This is according to Jim in customer service at Leica NJ.

I am feeling a bit torn between 'upgrading' to this new camera and keeping what I have. When the 'old' Monochrom can do this, I'm debating about the need to 'update':


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Old 05-01-2015   #120
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I pulled the trigger this morning with Dales Leica store. Mid May would be good. Much better than the MM9 which took forever.

Thank you all for talking me into this
Bravo.......
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