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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

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Old 06-09-2015   #41
jsrockit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
apparently it won't work on the 5d!
Why wouldn't it... I used the 40mm on a 5d MKII.
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Old 06-09-2015   #42
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Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i shot the pride parade on saturday and was disappointed at my results...i had better when i shot my rangefinders...the fuji do some things well but i have to work too hard to get some images out of them.
it's the fuji lenses that keep me in the game.
maybe even a nikon d300 would do me better.
Right now I am trying out the Sony A77ii DSLR. Super quick, big EVF viewfinder. Weather resistant and not too heavy.
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Old 06-09-2015   #43
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The mirrorless cameras I use don't get in my way.

All cameras have disadvantages of some sort.

All cameras are ill-suited to one application or another.

A similar list:
" annoying viewfinder lag, or noisy shutter, or slow autofocus, or small buffer, or lack of simple controls, or non-traditional menus?
could be made for DSLRs except some of the items would be different.

Because I'm not interested in action photography I'll never us a DSLR again. Although I did do some action photography with one of the newest mirrorless bodies and was very pleased with the results. I did take me about 15 minutes at home researching how to optimize the all the relevant menu options and another 10 minutes of practice at the event to optimize my technique.

Frankly I think it's good idea you didn't pull the trigger. Something motivated you to explore the mirrorless market. Every year the cameras improve and the issues on that list are less of a concern.

Sometimes you just have to wait. After I decided to stop using film, I waited almost two years for something like the X100 to appear. After the first month I almost sold it. Then I invested time and effort figuring how to eliminate or minimize my frustrations. The camera became my daily camera and I never looked back. For me this adjustment was well-worth the effort.


My missed-shot rate with mirrorless cameras is similar to my missed shot rate with rangefinder cameras and using manual focus lenses on DSLRs. But this doesn't necessarily mean mirrorless systems are as easy to operate as those cameras. It could just mean I was (am) a mediocre camera operator.
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Old 06-09-2015   #44
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EVFs in principle will always lag somewhat, because electronic signal processing takes time to happen, and always will.

Because for much of my photography I desire the near- and far-ground be in sharp focus, I wanted a small-sensor camera with good dynamic range, but an optical VF. I chose a Fujifilm X10, and shoot it in the high dynamic EXR mode. Since this camera's native format is 4:3, I attached an Olympus micro-4/3 external VF to the hot shoe, that has frame lines for the 35mm equivalent angle of view. Being placed almost directly above the lens, the external VF has less parallax issues than using the built in optical VF, and having framelines means I can anticipate objects outside the image space.

More and more, this is my go-to rig.

P1090709a by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

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Old 06-09-2015   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeV View Post
[...]I chose a Fujifilm X10, and shoot it in the high dynamic EXR mode. Since this camera's native format is 4:3, I attached an Olympus micro-4/3 external VF to the hot shoe, that has frame lines for the 35mm equivalent angle of view. Being placed almost directly above the lens, the external VF has less parallax issues than using the built in optical VF, and having framelines means I can anticipate objects outside the image space.

More and more, this is my go-to rig. [...]
~Joe
That sure looks good, and if it produces the results you're after then there's not much to argue with. My choices have been different but yours seem pretty sensible (probably more sensible than mine in many ways).

...Mike
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Old 06-09-2015   #46
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Silent? Panny GX7

I've been using the GX7 for some time now and like it a lot. It's like a more up-to-date version of the GF1.
Better low light capability, focus peeking with non-AF lenses and - if you want - absolute silent shutter. And in silent mode you can set it to a max of 40 shots a second! Haven't used that yet, like many more features on it.
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Old 06-09-2015   #47
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Quote:
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Why wouldn't it... I used the 40mm on a 5d MKII.
the 24 won't work...it's an ef-s lens.
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Old 06-09-2015   #48
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Sorry Joe, I thought you meant the 40mm wouldn't work.
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Old 06-09-2015   #49
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I thank all of you who chimed in with different thoughts on my frustration.
Some of your good ideas hit the mark for me.
Yes, every camera system has some limitations.
As my buddy, jsrockit, points out, if that were not so, then "we'd all be using the same camera".
If I could cobble together a camera which combined the best features of all the CSC's that I examined at Adorama, that might solve my problem.
In the meantime, my Leicas will continue to shoot B+W film outdoors, and my Nikon DSLRs will do the indoor color work for the print media and the websites.
I'm happy but I'll still be on the lookout.
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Old 06-10-2015   #50
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...Mike
Fascinating image there, Mike! Looks like something out of Batman!
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Old 06-10-2015   #51
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I'd be recommending the x-t10 or picking up a used x-t1. There are no issues with this generation of EVFs in any of the mirrorless cameras. The Fujis - especially the x-t1 do have the best viewfinder optics which results in a clearer/sharper evf display all the way to the edges. I actually tried the sony a7II and the x-t1 side by side in store and noticed this straight away.

With the fujis, they take about 5-10 minutes to set up out of the box and they act exactly as a Nikon f3 or similar would. I rarely use menus - only to format the card.

Personally I think Nikon DSLRs have one of the worst menu systems of any pro level camera - if you can figure that out you will have NO problems with the fujis.
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Old 06-10-2015   #52
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Fascinating image there, Mike! Looks like something out of Batman!
Thanks! It's the Pyrmont Bridge in Sydney, taken while walking across Darling Harbour - back before they pulled down the Sydney Monorail. I knew the Monorail was for the chop so I tried to take some photos before the sands of time thing happened.

...Mike
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Old 06-10-2015   #53
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Mike, that's a great shot.

I went for Sony to shoot portraits, mostly indoors. I use the superb Sony Zeiss 55 f/1.8 lens. I also like MF SLR lenses; focus peaking works very well on these cameras. First was NEX-5n, but the A6000 is another big step forward.

I still use a DSLR for action and long telephoto (e.g. birds).
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Old 06-13-2015   #54
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Now, with the new Leica Q, I may be revisiting this topic.
Can't wait to get my hands on it.
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Old 06-13-2015   #55
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A thought just occurred to me while re-reading some of the posts. If I could find a camera with just one shortcoming I would snatch it up in a heartbeat. Gads!
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Old 06-13-2015   #56
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A thought just occurred to me while re-reading some of the posts. If I could find a camera with just one shortcoming I would snatch it up in a heartbeat. Gads!
I've heard a lot of women say the same thing about men...

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Old 06-13-2015   #57
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I've been fairly happy with my Sony A7 and manual focus lenses.
Shot this with the A7 and the 50mm F3.5 Elmar LTM.
For manual focus it beats my D800.

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Old 06-13-2015   #58
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They all lag. Cheaper the cam, the longer the lag.

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Old 06-13-2015   #59
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I've been fairly happy with my Sony A7 and manual focus lenses.
Shot this with the A7 and the 50mm F3.5 Elmar LTM.
For manual focus it beats my D800....
So you've peaked my interest, how so?

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Old 06-14-2015   #60
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Nobody mentioned the Canon 100D (don't know the American name) - small and add the 24mm STM for the prefect small DSLR set-up. I keep being tempted by it, even if I have no use for it as my small cameras needs are met by a Sony Nex F3 with an EVF. I know that Canon isn't as sexy as Nikon these days, this camera is underrated imho.....

The Leica Q is great for somebody looking for a Leica feel and reports say it has great AF, but it is very expensive. I'm wondering if Sony will respond with a RX2 or RX1 mark II with build in EVF.
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Old 06-14-2015   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkdanamatt View Post
Now, with the new Leica Q, I may be revisiting this topic.
Can't wait to get my hands on it.
How interesting.

Does this mean you have faith Leica has overcome all the issues you listed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkdanamatt View Post
Do they all have that "annoying viewfinder lag", or noisy shutter, or slow autofocus, or small buffer, or lack of simple controls, or non-traditional menus?
Initial reports indicate the shutter is quiet, the AF performs well and buffer size should be irrelevant for all cameras in this price range.

I'm particularly curious how forgiving you might be about "annoying viewfinder lag" and "lack of simple controls" (no ISO dial).

I do not consider DPREVIEW's ad-hoc test results regarding ISO invariance to be definitive. Still, the visible banding at extraordinarily low exposures (silly-high ISO amplifications) could mean the Q will not be the weapon of choice in extreme low-light or in scenes with extraordinary dynamic range demands. Many of us really don't care about these.

No matter. Should the Q appear with a 35 or 50 mm lens, I will buy one. And, after the M8 IR incident, I swore I would never buy a Leica digital camera.

I guess the Leica brand has a remarkable capacity to facilitate forgiveness.

n.b. moderators: if mentioning DPREVIEW is unacceptable, please PM me and I will re-word that sentence.
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Old 06-14-2015   #62
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Hi,

I do like reading threads like this and realising I was right to stick with my Leica Digilux 2 for all those years (well over a dozen years); even though it's only (only?) pokes out 5 megapixels. OTOH, it handles like a film camera with old fashioned controls and the f/2 to f/2.4 Zoom lens goes from 28 to 90mm equivalent, EVR and nothing to complain about...

Regards, David

PS OTOH, I wish I could find a straight forward digital compact like the Olympus XA or the more modern Leica mini 3. That means no zoom but a good prime.
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