Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Gearhead Delights > Repair / Camera Care

Repair / Camera Care This is a good place to discuss the care and repair of your photo gear. You can share Do-It-Yourself repair and maintenance, as well as your recommendations for pro repairs. This new forum was created 4/1/07. PLEASE title your thread wisely, so others searching for a certain make of camera or repair person can find your thread easily!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Compur Shutter slow and fast speeds
Old 09-26-2019   #1
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Compur Shutter slow and fast speeds

Hello all, I've just bought an Ensign Selfix 20 with 100mm f4.5 Ensar lens in a Compur shutter.

I'm not too surprised that the slow speeds are slow- 1 second and 1/2 second are about twice as long, (going on "Elephant Count"), with the cocking lever getting almost stuck half-way on it's travel back to the "uncocked" position but managing to finish eventually, and the 1/5th and 1/10 also seem slow. The 1/25th and 1/50th are possibly a little slow.

The thing is, I was hoping that with use the mechanism would loosen up a bit and would not get almost stuck in 1s and 1/2s, so I decided to go through the speed range a few times from fast to slow.

When moving the speed dial to 1/250th, the dial seemed to be very slightly on the stiff-ish side and got looser from 1/125th onwards. I fired the shutter about a dozen times on 1s and 1/2s and I don't know if it was wishful thinking or not but there seemed to be a tiny amount of speeding up, then I went up the scale to 1/250th and on coming back to 1s and 1/2s the speeds seemed to be as slow as they were to start with.

I was wondering:

1) Is it normal for a Compur shutter to get a tiny bit stiff-ish when being moved onto 1/250th?

2) Is it possible for the speeds to get closer to their marked speed with a bit of use?

3) Is it to be expected that any possible, slight, quickening in speed for the slow speeds to "disappear" after the shutter has been fired at the fastest speed?

Any help anyone can give would be much appreciated.
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-26-2019   #2
mconnealy
Registered User
 
mconnealy's Avatar
 
mconnealy is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 176
The old rimset Compur shutters are very sturdy. It sounds like yours needs a light cleaning. There are likely deposits of grime and dried lubricant on the shutter and aperture leaves as well as in the mechanism. The Camera and Restoration site has a good illustrated guide to disassembly of the shutter. You probably will not need to do a complete disassembly, but rather just get the front off so you can brush some Ronsonal onto the internal workings of the shutter.
Regarding the 1/250 setting, when you turn the shutter ring all the way to the highest speed you are engaging an additional stiff booster spring which accounts for the increased resistance at that point.
__________________
Mike Connealy - Photography & Vintage Film Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-26-2019   #3
Dan Daniel
Registered User
 
Dan Daniel is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,564
From the web site linked to above, looks as if there is a booster spring for the highest speed. If you look at photo #4, at about 10 o'clock on the outside edge of the shutter, is a heavy coil spring around a screw and right above the metal dog leg part. As you rotate the rim to engage 1/250, you are compressing this spring. That is the increased tension you feel.


Do what Mike said and you'll get the speeds back.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-26-2019   #4
mconnealy
Registered User
 
mconnealy's Avatar
 
mconnealy is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 176
Yep, Dan has it right on the spring. I was in the process of adding a sentence on that when he posted his comment.
I opened the Compur on my Zeiss Ikon Maximar to be sure I knew what I was talking about. Getting that top plate off the shutter involves removing the very small screws that hold on the aperture scale and maybe a logo badge as well. Mine also had another larger screw under the aperture scale that needs to come out.

You then need to rotate the cover plate to line up the three tabs with the openings so that the plate can be removed. Sometimes the tabs are a little sticky and you may need to use a pointed instrument in the screw holes along with a knife edge to help lift the plate out. That is probably as far as you need to go with disassembly. As long as the cocking rack is in place you can operate the shutter to test the effectiveness of your cleaning efforts.
__________________
Mike Connealy - Photography & Vintage Film Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-26-2019   #5
Ronald M
Registered User
 
Ronald M is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,526
Have it cleaned.

Two things to consider. Slow speeds should be accurate. Fast speeds are also accurate , BUT time is measured while full open. So if you use small F stops and fast speeds over exposures will happen because the time of blades opening and closing are not added to the full open time measured.

When I first started in early 1960, Kodak warned of this in the film instruction sheet that came with High Speed Ektachrome.
160 was the box speed shows you how things have changed.
If I recall under 1/2 stop was the recommendation of 35 mm cameras with leaf shutters.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-26-2019   #6
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto's Avatar
 
Chriscrawfordphoto is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Age: 44
Posts: 9,049
Here are factory service manuals for several Compur shutter models:


http://learncamerarepair.com/product...2&secondary=20
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-27-2019   #7
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Thank you to everyone for the replies and the info.

I had hoped just a bit of use would sort it out, but it seems probably not.

I did wonder if there should be a bit of extra tension for the 1/250th, but as none of my other folders (with a Tempor, an Epsilon and two Synchro-compur shutters) have speed rings that get a bit stiffer when going to the top speed I wasn't sure if it was to be expected.

I'm fairly sure I'll be far too chicken to try to fix it myself, as I am a complete clumsy clot of a cack-handed buffoon when it comes to that sort of thing, so I'll have to pay to have it worked on.

Thanks again for the help.
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-28-2019   #8
citizen99
Registered User
 
citizen99's Avatar
 
citizen99 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 753
Just a word of caution, even if you pay a lot of money to have a shutter of that age serviced, don't be suprised if you don't achieve the fastest speeds as engraved. Cleaning, and a touch of watch oil if applicable, yes, but aged springs and wear in the mechanisms ... My experience with many Compurs, Prontors, Epsilons, Kodaks ...
I measure the actual opening times with one of those optical jobbies you plug in to your PC microphone port, and set the exposures accordingly for that camera.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-28-2019   #9
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Thanks for the usefulinfo and advice citizen99.

How much are these "optical jobbies"?
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 09-28-2019   #10
citizen99
Registered User
 
citizen99's Avatar
 
citizen99 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
Thanks for the usefulinfo and advice citizen99.

How much are these "optical jobbies"?
Here's a couple

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Camera-sh...IAAOSwYHxWHmcP

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Camera-sh...0AAOSwVL1WEWxR
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-02-2019   #11
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Thanks for the links citizen99, I've just put them on my "watch" list.

I'm a little confused though, the tester measures light not sound but needs a sound editing program on the pc to work?
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-03-2019   #12
citizen99
Registered User
 
citizen99's Avatar
 
citizen99 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
Thanks for the links citizen99, I've just put them on my "watch" list.

I'm a little confused though, the tester measures light not sound but needs a sound editing program on the pc to work?
No problem, there is a program called Audacity that is free to download, just google about it. Runs on Windows, Mac OSX, Linux ( I have used it on the latter).
https://www.audacityteam.org/


You could no doubt find others.


Some specimens here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/433348...57691747415032


The tester's photocell converts the light to an electrical pulse that the sound card can use. Don't worry about those speed displays that are such that the elecrical decay after each transition can be seen. It's the 'sharp' transitions, dark-->light and light-->dark respectively that are significant.

Last edited by citizen99 : 10-03-2019 at 02:37. Reason: Editorial
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-03-2019   #13
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Thanks for the new info citizen99.
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
johnnyrod
More cameras than shots
 
johnnyrod is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Doncaster, UK
Posts: 412
Bit late to the party here but I back up all that has been said. They do gum up, and cleaning (done properly, not just squirting lighter fluid in) will sort it out. Slow speeds should work fine - I have a 1937 Compur Rapid that has the best set of speed figures I have seen, except the top two speeds. These run at about half speed, which is fairly normal - a consequence of age, and they're not regulated, the shutter is running at full speed (just with a second spring for top-top speed). They're not hard to work on in general though.
__________________
How does this thing work?
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
I'll have another go at a reply I've just typed but lost due to having to login again even though I ticked the remember me box:

Thanks for your reply and the info johnnyrod.



I recently found out that it has a self-timer (not for 1/250th though), in the form of a pin you have to move back after tensioning the shutter and you then have to tension it again.

So I tried it and the tensioning lever took so long to get to the position at which the shutter fires, it gave up.

Would the cleaning sort this out too, or would that be another job?

While I probably won't use the self-timer, it would be nice to have the whole thing working properly.
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #16
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
I've just taken it in for a service/clean. It'll be about a month before I know if the "trouble" was just dirt or gummed up a bit etc. I'll also find out if the self-timer is working after the tech's been at it.
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #17
johnnyrod
More cameras than shots
 
johnnyrod is offline
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Doncaster, UK
Posts: 412
I doubt the self timer has affected anything but it's hard to tell without seeing it. Where did you send it?
__________________
How does this thing work?
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #18
Sarcophilus Harrisii
Brett Rogers
 
Sarcophilus Harrisii is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
I've just taken it in for a service/clean. It'll be about a month before I know if the "trouble" was just dirt or gummed up a bit etc. I'll also find out if the self-timer is working after the tech's been at it.
Unless the mechanism has been forced, it's unlikely the self timer can't be persuaded to run well. Although timer mechanisms in older shutters are sometimes demonised by users who claim they're inherently untrustworthy and will jam up a shutter if used, the reality is that their gear trains are just a simpler version of the escapements used for controlling shutter speeds. Rather than being a combined inertia/retard escapement they run at a single speed with their pallets permanently engaged, hence, they're actually less complex.

They will often manifest a failure to run off fully, but this typically will only reflect a lack of use, exercise, and a need for servicing. If the one fitted to your shutter is not running off it will only be because, like the rest of the shutter, it's fighting against the additional drag of old, oxidised, organic-based lubricants which are no longer reducing friction but actively increasing it, at the expense of reliable running. Getting the shutter competently serviced should include the timer escapement being cleaned and lubricated, at which point, I'd be quite surprised if it did not operate flawlessly.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #19
seany65
Registered User
 
seany65 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,093
Johnnyrod,

I took it into a shop in Manchester called "The Real Camera Company". I've been going there since it was "Nobby's Cameras" in the 80's. They, or rather the techs they use worked on my Super Solinette and my Super Regent.

If it works when I get it back, I'll have to have a long sort through their "small" filter/lens-hood drawer, not only for ones that are 35mm push-on, but also that somehow avoid the stop-pin thingy that is so close to the lens that ordinary push-on filters and lens-hoods can't fit. It's a nice camera and the unloading method is Sooo much better than on my selfix 16-20, but it's going to be a nightmare finding hoods and things.


Sarcophilus,

While I know nothing about self-timers, I do think that at least some cameras that have self-timers that aren't working properly may have been set while the shutter is on a disallowed speed and so were damaged to some degree. Perhaps some of the users realised it was set at such a speed and changed it to an allowed one and damaged the shutter or self-timer that way?
__________________
An ever-growing amount of photo-stuff and a never-growing amount of photo-talent.
  Reply With Quote

Old 2 Weeks Ago   #20
Sarcophilus Harrisii
Brett Rogers
 
Sarcophilus Harrisii is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,666
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by seany65 View Post
Johnnyrod,

I took it into a shop in Manchester called "The Real Camera Company". I've been going there since it was "Nobby's Cameras" in the 80's. They, or rather the techs they use worked on my Super Solinette and my Super Regent.

If it works when I get it back, I'll have to have a long sort through their "small" filter/lens-hood drawer, not only for ones that are 35mm push-on, but also that somehow avoid the stop-pin thingy that is so close to the lens that ordinary push-on filters and lens-hoods can't fit. It's a nice camera and the unloading method is Sooo much better than on my selfix 16-20, but it's going to be a nightmare finding hoods and things.


Sarcophilus,

While I know nothing about self-timers, I do think that at least some cameras that have self-timers that aren't working properly may have been set while the shutter is on a disallowed speed and so were damaged to some degree. Perhaps some of the users realised it was set at such a speed and changed it to an allowed one and damaged the shutter or self-timer that way?
You're quite right that certain designs have incompatible settings. Eg Compur Rapid types may prohibit use of the self timer with the maximum speed that needs a booster spring, (1/400 or 1/500, for instance). Bulb, too, from memory. If a mechanical failure has been caused by disregarding the maker's instructions on such matters—this would fall under the category of "Unless the mechanism has been forced..." in my previous post.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:55.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.