Old 09-16-2019   #81
Freakscene
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
HC-110 does not oxidize. If it did, the bottles would be compressed over time due to the consumption of the oxygen inside the bottles. I have had many many HC-110 bottles radically change color over the span of years and none of them ever suffered bottle compression, nor the sound of a vacuum being released when the bottle is opened. All signs of oxidation missing.
So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? I’m serious.

Marty
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Old 09-16-2019   #82
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I've not got a chance to test the new one yet,
But what I can see is the price has been increased over 30%
From $28.50 to $39.95, Link from BHphotovideo


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
If you look at B & H's web site, you'll see that there's a new entry under HC-110. Now labeled "New Formula" it appears in 2019 Kodak has made a very substantial change to the HC-110 formula. So substantial a change that former Kodak engineers consider this a different developer, very unlikely to have the same long shelf life that HC-110 is known for. I'll link the thread below where they talk about it.

HC-110 has been my go to developer for the past 10 years. Aside from DD-X, it's all I have ever used. You can still get the old formula now, but for how long, no one knows. I hardly shoot film now so my current liter of HC-110 will last me many, many, many years. But should I need a new developer, I will no longer turn to Kodak for this need as I am uninterested in this new formula.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...ormula.169322/
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Old 09-17-2019   #83
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? Iím serious.

Marty

HC-110's formula has no water in it. The absence of water often prevents many chemical reactions from happening. Once the bottle has been opened, air gets into it. This air contains moisture and over time, more and more moisture gets into the bottle. This is absorbed by the syrup and so various degradation reactions can now occur. While the syrup may be degraded in visible ways, it is still able to develop film (thankfully) and so we can safely ignore those reactions.
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Old 09-17-2019   #84
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I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.
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Old 09-17-2019   #85
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? Iím serious.

Marty
My thought exactly.
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Old 09-17-2019   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.giannakis View Post
I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.

I'm a graduate degreed chemist with just shy of 30 years of industrial experience.


Yes, oxidation can happen in the absence of oxygen. However, if oxygen IS present (which it will be in an HC-110 bottle), then that will be the mechanism of oxidation and so will then be consumed.


Far more likely is that moisture is being added to the bottle as air enters. HC-110 was formulated specifically without water and that is why it is stable.


Oxidized liquids always consume oxygen (if it's there) during the oxidation process. My laboratory bench top shows many bottles showing various signs of being crushed from the outside due to lower pressure inside. HC-110 never shows that phenomena.
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Old 09-17-2019   #87
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My HC110 bottles always collapse.

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Old 09-17-2019   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
My HC110 bottles always collapse.

Phil Forrest

I have been using HC-110 for over a decade now and have never seen the slightest evidence that they collapse due to internal lack of pressure.



Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.
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Old 09-17-2019   #89
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Mine's collapsed as well. It's been sitting closed, 3/4 full and unopened for probably 5 years now.

I guess it shows how great I think HC-110 is...
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Old 09-17-2019   #90
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I have been using HC-110 for over a decade...

Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.
A decade huh? That's a long time. ��

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Old 09-17-2019   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
HC-110's formula has no water in it. The absence of water often prevents many chemical reactions from happening. Once the bottle has been opened, air gets into it. This air contains moisture and over time, more and more moisture gets into the bottle. This is absorbed by the syrup and so various degradation reactions can now occur. While the syrup may be degraded in visible ways, it is still able to develop film (thankfully) and so we can safely ignore those reactions.
So your theory is that the colour change is caused by oxidation over time facilitated by absorption of atmospheric water into the developer concentrate? What about autoxidaton to semiquinones and quinones?

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Old 09-18-2019   #92
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
So your theory is that the colour change is caused by oxidation over time facilitated by absorption of atmospheric water into the developer concentrate? What about autoxidaton to semiquinones and quinones?

Marty

Again, for the 3rd time, there is no evidence whatsoever of oxidation. If oxidation were happening, oxygen would be consumed. Oxygen is a VERY reactive chemical and if the contents of HC-110 were capable of being oxidized, then oxygen would be consumed. It's that simple.



Just because a chemical reaction is clearly happening does not in any way automatically mean that the mechanism is oxidation.
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Old 09-19-2019   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Again, for the 3rd time, there is no evidence whatsoever of oxidation. If oxidation were happening, oxygen would be consumed. Oxygen is a VERY reactive chemical and if the contents of HC-110 were capable of being oxidized, then oxygen would be consumed. It's that simple.

Just because a chemical reaction is clearly happening does not in any way automatically mean that the mechanism is oxidation.
So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty
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Old 09-19-2019   #94
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So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty

I never said that.
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Old 09-19-2019   #95
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In my experience, Kodak Alaris is very prompt answering consumer questions. Might stop a lot of the speculation about HC110.

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Old 09-19-2019   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.giannakis View Post
I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.

There's an interesting thread over at apug where this, or something like it, appears to be occurring in Pyrocat that is mixed in glycol without water. When the glycol versions were announced it was thought that that they would offer much longer shelf life (and it seems that they do) but they can still deteriorate. I don't know if that's because after repeated opening of the bottle some water from the air is gradually introduced, or, as been suggested, there is actually a reaction taking place which is not primarily about water.
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Old 09-19-2019   #97
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So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty

When we talk as non-chemists that something is oxidized, we usually mean it's spoiled by a reaction with oxygen, e.g. a bottle of wine that's been open too long, a water-based developer that's gone brown. However, confusingly for me whose chemistry knowledge is minimal, chemists refer to it a a loss of an electron of one component in a reaction which doesn't need to have anything to do with oxygen.
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Old 09-19-2019   #98
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I have been using HC-110 for over a decade now and have never seen the slightest evidence that they collapse due to internal lack of pressure.



Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.

If you open the bottle frequently then the pressure difference between inside and outside the bottle will be equalised frequently and will hardly be noticed. I had one, unopened, for years and it did collapse a bit.
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Old 09-19-2019   #99
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Oxidation is the loss of an electron or electrons. It occurs often in the absence of oxygen.

Ted doesn’t want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.

It’s time for me to leave this alone.

Marty
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Old 09-19-2019   #100
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Oxidation: What happens to your breath when you argue with someone over the internet.

I think this xkcd comic is apropos:
https://xkcd.com/386/
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Old 09-19-2019   #101
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Oxidation is the loss of an electron or electrons. It occurs often in the absence of oxygen.

Ted doesnít want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.

Itís time for me to leave this alone.

Marty

You are, again, incorrect. I dont say what is happening because I dont have real knowledge about the results of the various reactions. Chemists don't guess. They analyze data. My bottle of HC-110 is over 2 years old and has changed dramatically from its original state. Using chromatography, I could separate the various components of HC-110 and analyze the differences. What new materials are present that are not there in a fresh sample. Based on this information I could then posit a theory as to what is going on.


What I have commented on is the clear absence of evidence for oxidation. I have had many bottles of HC-110 stored for such a long time that they are dark red, almost completely blocking light transmission through the fluid. The structure of the plastic bottles are always 100% unchanged from the fresh bottle, not compressed. I work with dozens of chemicals that oxidize and the evidence is easily obtained as to which ones are undergoing oxidation. They collapse due to the consumption of oxygen.



Finally, as already noted, HC-110 is formulated without any water in the product. With the absence of oxygen depletion, it is far more likely that water absorption is the mechanism that causes HC-110 to degrade. But as I already stated, this is theory, not fact.
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Old 09-19-2019   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post

Ted doesnít want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.

Clearly not? Nope. Clearly you can't read. If you were carefully reading, you'd notice that I have posted what I *thought* is going on in HC-110. Re-read post 86 and try again. I stated VERY clearly what I thought was going on. Yet you continue to gloss right over that.
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Old 09-19-2019   #103
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Originally Posted by john_s View Post
If you open the bottle frequently then the pressure difference between inside and outside the bottle will be equalised frequently and will hardly be noticed. I had one, unopened, for years and it did collapse a bit.

My bottle of HC-110 was not opened for 12 months. I only just developed my first film of the year a few weeks ago. The structure of the bottle was unchanged, nor was there a vacuum release sound when I opened it up. No sign of oxidation at all.
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Old 09-19-2019   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_s View Post
There's an interesting thread over at apug where this, or something like it, appears to be occurring in Pyrocat that is mixed in glycol without water. When the glycol versions were announced it was thought that that they would offer much longer shelf life (and it seems that they do) but they can still deteriorate. I don't know if that's because after repeated opening of the bottle some water from the air is gradually introduced, or, as been suggested, there is actually a reaction taking place which is not primarily about water.

Without evidence, none of this can be proved. If the bottle were to collapse due to a pressure change (oxygen consumed), that would be clear evidence that a major oxidation reaction was occurring.
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Old 09-19-2019   #105
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Oxidizing or not oxidizing is the question here ... I have had HC-110 gone bad rather quickly after expiration date a couple of times. It didn`t fail completely but films became under-developed. I store the HC-110 always in a fridge and in the dark.





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Oxidation occurs very easily in a non aqueous environment. I can see HC-110 start oxidizing very shortly after the bottle has been opened the first time.
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HC-110 does not oxidize. If it did, the bottles would be compressed over time due to the consumption of the oxygen inside the bottles. I have had many many HC-110 bottles radically change color over the span of years and none of them ever suffered bottle compression, nor the sound of a vacuum being released when the bottle is opened. All signs of oxidation missing.
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Old 09-20-2019   #106
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Oxidizing or not oxidizing is the question here ... I have had HC-110 gone bad rather quickly after expiration date a couple of times. It didn`t fail completely but films became under-developed. I store the HC-110 always in a fridge and in the dark.
My HC-110 bottle has opened since 2009, it's nearly empty now but I do not see any difference in developing film (or I CANNOT see)
(do not blame me, I use various developer not only HC110, hence it has been around that much of time)
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Old 09-20-2019   #107
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The structure of the bottle was unchanged, nor was there a vacuum release sound when I opened it up. No sign of oxidation at all.
Please make sure that the vacuum release is contained to your house. We don't want your vacuum to spread all over...

Unless, there is a very small amount of vacuum that you have stored in your HC-110 bottles.
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Old 09-20-2019   #108
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My HC-110 bottle has opened since 2009, it's nearly empty now but I do not see any difference in developing film (or I CANNOT see)
(do not blame me, I use various developer not only HC110, hence it has been around that much of time)

My HC-110 bottle is down to its last 100 mls or so and is so dark red as to be almost like a strawberry syrup. Further, there are large amounts of solid chunks in the syrup. It looks like old used waste oil. But it develops just as good as the day I opened it. It's truly amazing how robust the product is despite the clear and massive changes it undergoes. I wish the products I designed had a shelf life like HC-110.
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